AFL Team of the 21st Century (Rolling)

[Noidnadroj]

1.1 goals per game is an odd exclusion point... but it excludes Billings in 2017 (23 and 1)

Martin’s average was 23.47 and 1.15 in all seasons excluding his 4 x AA years - 199 games. That’s where 23+ and 1.1+ comes from. There’s a website to filter to 23 and 1.1, so I’ve got no idea
who just missed these metrics in any one season..??

But Billings 2017 is an interesting one.

11 x Brownlow votes = his most ever
11.20 player ratings = best season ever (his next best 9.9)
Goals + goal assists = 2.0 (most ever)
Disposals = 23.2 (second best ever)
5th in B&F
Coaches votes = 34 (second most ever, just shaded by 36 in 2019)
Played all 22 games.

So he didn’t quite meet Martin’s 10-year average for that single season, but when he almost got there it was clearly his best ever season.


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[Noidnadroj]

So in 2017, while playing for St Kilda, Billings missed a game against St Kilda? Can you just assume I missed something everyone else is getting and re-state it clearly?

I was the original poster. Martin is criticised for his lack of elite footy outside a handful of great seasons. I removed his 4 x AA season, and in the other 10 x seasons of his career (Inc his debut season and his injury riddled 2021-22)… in those 199 x games, Martin averages 23.47 possessions and 1.15 goals.

When you look at players to have averaged 23+ touches and 1.1+ goals in a SINGLE season, outside Martin 7 x players have achieved this in the last 9-years.

The 23+ and 1.1+ are not cherry picked numbers … they are simply Martin’s averages outside his 4 x AA years. So from a disposal and goals standpoint he has retained over 199 x games what barely anyone achieves in a single season. I’d say that means he has been pretty consistently elite.


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[Noidnadroj]

To get the thread back on topic after I derailed it … here is my 21st century team.. based on football played only this century:

B: Gibson. Scarlett. McLeod
HB: Hodge. Rance. Enright
C: Black. Judd. Goodes
HF : D Martin. N Riewoldt. Danger
F: Betts. Buddy. Boomer
R: Gawn. Fyfe. GAJ
I/C: Pendles. Pavlich. Selwood. Bont

Unluckiest: Cox. Tredrea. S Mitchell. J Riewoldt. T Hawkins. J Brown. Swan.

Too much of their best footy in the 1990’s: Ricciuto. Hird. Buckley. Voss. Lloyd. B Johnson. Cousins. Richo.

Another 3-4 seasons at the top and they may squeeze someone out : Stewart. Neale. Petracca. Oliver.

Whilst I think there are many ‘better’ players than Betts or Gibson, the team needs a goal kicking forward pocket and a back pocket and Betts and Gibson are the best few this century IMO.


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[JackOutback]

Too much of their best footy in the 1990’s: Ricciuto. Hird. Buckley. Voss. Lloyd. B Johnson. Cousins. Richo.

Debuted in 1996, won Brownlow in 2006, finished at Eagles in 2007, played for Richmond in 2009 and 10.

 

[RUNVS]

To get the thread back on topic after I derailed it … here is my 21st century team.. based on football played only this century:

B: Gibson. Scarlett. McLeod
HB: Hodge. Rance. Enright
C: Black. Judd. Goodes
HF : D Martin. N Riewoldt. Danger
F: Betts. Buddy. Boomer
R: Gawn. Fyfe. GAJ
I/C: Pendles. Pavlich. Selwood. Bont

Unluckiest: Cox. Tredrea. S Mitchell. J Riewoldt. T Hawkins. J Brown. Swan.

Too much of their best footy in the 1990’s: Ricciuto. Hird. Buckley. Voss. Lloyd. B Johnson. Cousins. Richo.

Another 3-4 seasons at the top and they may squeeze someone out : Stewart. Neale. Petracca. Oliver.

Whilst I think there are many ‘better’ players than Betts or Gibson, the team needs a goal kicking forward pocket and a back pocket and Betts and Gibson are the best few this century IMO.


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No way is Gibson and Harvey making this team. Also truthfully I am not sure about Fyfe as his best was very good but half his career now has been pretty average.

 

[Fadge]

Debuted in 1996, won Brownlow in 2006, finished at Eagles in 2007, played for Richmond in 2009 and 10.

And how did he go in those two years at Richmond?

No way his CV 2000 onwards stacks up to be in consideration for this team.

 

[BF Tiger]

I hope a number of posters in this thread are dead by 2037. I don’t think they could handle Dusty giving out three Norm Smiths in four years.

That will probably be about the time the AFL realises three Gary Ayres Medals is a unique achievement and re-name it the Ayres-Martin Medal.

 

[Fadge]

I hope a number of posters in this thread are dead by 2037. I don’t think they could handle Dusty giving out three Norm Smiths in four years.

That will probably be about the time the AFL realises three Gary Ayres Medals is a unique achievement and re-name it the Ayres-Martin Medal.

Off the top of your head, who won it in 2016?

2018?

2021?

Go.

 

[Pistol Night]

I hope a number of posters in this thread are dead by 2037. I don’t think they could handle Dusty giving out three Norm Smiths in four years.

That will probably be about the time the AFL realises three Gary Ayres Medals is a unique achievement and re-name it the Ayres-Martin Medal.

First sentence was a nice touch

 

[JackOutback]

And how did he go in those two years at Richmond?

No way his CV 2000 onwards stacks up to be in consideration for this team.

His best years were literally 2000-2007, outnumbering the four years he was active in the 90s, going against your argument that his 90s achievements outweighed his achievements this century. Off-hand, he's currently miles ahead of Bont, who he had in his team, and ahead of Pendles, Selwood and Danger.

 

[Fadge]

His best years were literally 2000-2007, outnumbering the four years he was active in the 90s, going against your argument that his 90s achievements outweighed his achievements this century. Off-hand, he's currently miles ahead of Bont, who he had in his team, and ahead of Pendles, Selwood and Danger.

I never said his 90's achievements outweighed his 2000's achievements.

He'd need his full career to be in the 2000's to even be in consideration for this team.

Bont's already ahead of him, and the other three you mentioned are in a different stratosphere.

As an exercise, rank the best 10, 12, 15
or 20 seasons from Cousins and Pendlebury this century, and see how many of them are Cousins. That will be a wake up call for you...

 

[theasian]

To get the thread back on topic after I derailed it … here is my 21st century team.. based on football played only this century:

B: Gibson. Scarlett. McLeod
HB: Hodge. Rance. Enright
C: Black. Judd. Goodes
HF : D Martin. N Riewoldt. Danger
F: Betts. Buddy. Boomer
R: Gawn. Fyfe. GAJ
I/C: Pendles. Pavlich. Selwood. Bont

Unluckiest: Cox. Tredrea. S Mitchell. J Riewoldt. T Hawkins. J Brown. Swan.

Too much of their best footy in the 1990’s: Ricciuto. Hird. Buckley. Voss. Lloyd. B Johnson. Cousins. Richo.

Another 3-4 seasons at the top and they may squeeze someone out : Stewart. Neale. Petracca. Oliver.

Whilst I think there are many ‘better’ players than Betts or Gibson, the team needs a goal kicking forward pocket and a back pocket and Betts and Gibson are the best few this century IMO.


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Aker and Stevie J unlucky not to be included at least among the unluckiest. And Lloyd played most of his footy in the 21st Century.

 

[JackOutback]

I never said his 90's achievements outweighed his 2000's achievements.

He'd need his full career to be in the 2000's to even be in consideration for this team.

Bont's already ahead of him, and the other three you mentioned are in a different stratosphere.

As an exercise, rank the best 10, 12, 15
or 20 seasons from Cousins and Pendlebury this century, and see how many of them are Cousins. That will be a wake up call for you...

Yes, I thought I was responding to the original poster.

The idea that Bont, who has never won a Brownlow, is ahead of Cousins shows just how insular Victorian fans can be. Cousins won the Rising Star, Brownlow, Leigh Matthews Medal, six AAs, four B&Fs while playing alongside Judd... Bont would need to seriously lift his game to come close. Pendlebury has longevity but his peak was never near Cousins. Cousins was practically carrying the team in his third and fourth years and was brilliant through the 2000s.

 

[theasian]

Yes, I thought I was responding to the original poster.

The idea that Bont, who has never won a Brownlow, is ahead of Cousins shows just how insular Victorian fans can be. Cousins won the Rising Star, Brownlow, Leigh Matthews Medal, six AAs, four B&Fs while playing alongside Judd... Bont would need to seriously lift his game to come close. Pendlebury has longevity but his peak was never near Cousins. Cousins was practically carrying the team in his third and fourth years and was brilliant through the 2000s.

Yes, and Cousins could kick a goal too.

Problem is. during West Coast's most succesful years he was 2nd Banana behind Judd and then his personal problems ruined him.

I will definitely place him above Selwood, but behind Danger and Pendles.

Bont will probably overtake Cousins if maintains his current performances up to the end of his career though.

 

[Fadge]

Yes, I thought I was responding to the original poster.

The idea that Bont, who has never won a Brownlow, is ahead of Cousins shows just how insular Victorian fans can be. Cousins won the Rising Star, Brownlow, Leigh Matthews Medal, six AAs, four B&Fs while playing alongside Judd... Bont would need to seriously lift his game to come close. Pendlebury has longevity but his peak was never near Cousins. Cousins was practically carrying the team in his third and fourth years and was brilliant through the 2000s.

Come on, man....

Two of his AA's were before 2000.

His first best and fairest was in 2001, before Judd was drafted.

His next two best and fairests were when Judd was 18 and 19 years old respectively.

He had a stellar year in 2005 when he won the Brownlow, Leigh Matthews Trophy and Club Best and Fairest. They were all in the same single season.

He gets points for being Club Captain, but loses points for the question marks over his 'leadership'.

He is well outside this team.

 

[Noidnadroj]

No way is Gibson and Harvey making this team. Also truthfully I am not sure about Fyfe as his best was very good but half his career now has been pretty average.

Gibson won 2 x B&F’s in premiership years. 200+ games and the best defender in a dynasty team. The other candidate were Chris Johnson, but he played a lot of footy priory to 2000. And Tom Stewart, but he’s only played 140-odd games. If Stewart has another 2-3 quality seasons he will probably take Gibsons spot.

Boomer played 360 odd games in the 2000’s. 4 x AA. 5 x B&F’s. 11 x seasons kicking 25+ goals.

Fyfe is 8th for total Brownlow votes this century and easily the best per game average. He’s also averaging 3+ coaches votes per game which is top-5. 2 x Brownlows. I’d be happy to swap him out for Swan or S Mitchell.


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[BF Tiger]

If only Martin could compete in a game with and against all his contemporaneous greats I wonder how he would go?

Oh, that’s right, he did.

State of Origin for Bushfire Relief Match - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RichLeMonde]

To get the thread back on topic after I derailed it … here is my 21st century team.. based on football played only this century:

B: Gibson. Scarlett. McLeod
HB: Hodge. Rance. Enright
C: Black. Judd. Goodes
HF : D Martin. N Riewoldt. Danger
F: Betts. Buddy. Boomer
R: Gawn. Fyfe. GAJ
I/C: Pendles. Pavlich. Selwood. Bont

Unluckiest: Cox. Tredrea. S Mitchell. J Riewoldt. T Hawkins. J Brown. Swan.

Too much of their best footy in the 1990’s: Ricciuto. Hird. Buckley. Voss. Lloyd. B Johnson. Cousins. Richo.

Another 3-4 seasons at the top and they may squeeze someone out : Stewart. Neale. Petracca. Oliver.

Whilst I think there are many ‘better’ players than Betts or Gibson, the team needs a goal kicking forward pocket and a back pocket and Betts and Gibson are the best few this century IMO.


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No way on god's green earth that Betts gets in ahead of Aker or Stevie J

Aker and Stevie may not have kicked as many goals as Betts, but they regularly lined up in a forward pocket and were simply far better and more accomplished players

 

[Noidnadroj]

His best years were literally 2000-2007, outnumbering the four years he was active in the 90s, going against your argument that his 90s achievements outweighed his achievements this century. Off-hand, he's currently miles ahead of Bont, who he had in his team, and ahead of Pendles, Selwood and Danger.

1996-1999 he was superb. Those years don’t count. So he’s down to 187 games in the 2000’s. Then 32 were at Richmond, so he’s now down to 155 games of relevance. 2007 he played 7 x games, so a non-event season. 2000 he played 17 games. Got 8 Brownlow votes and finished 4th in B&F, so a solid season. 2004 he also played just 17 games and got 4 Brownlow votes. Finished 10th in B&F.

So you want him in TOTC on the back of 5 high quality seasons only, and 187 games of which 32 were at Richmond ? Pendlebury’s made 5 x AA alone this century and finished top-3 in B&F 14 times along with nearly 400 games. Danger has made 8 x AA teams and played 300+. Selwood 300+, 4 x flags, multiple B&F’s, captain for 13-years and 6 x AA’s?

Cousins might be as good a player overall or arguably better, but he’s nowhere near those guys as a player this century when you consider he played just 155 x Eagles games.


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[Noidnadroj]

Aker and Stevie J unlucky not to be included at least among the unluckiest. And Lloyd played most of his footy in the 21st Century.

Stevie J was a terrific player. But interesting and quirky stat … I stand to be corrected, but never finished in the top-5 of Geelong’s B&F. Hard to believe as I agree was a great player. Aker also stiff… overlooked him as an unlucky miss, and I wouldn’t argue if Boomer was taken out and Aker inserted into forward pocket in his place.


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[Noidnadroj]

Yes, I thought I was responding to the original poster.

The idea that Bont, who has never won a Brownlow, is ahead of Cousins shows just how insular Victorian fans can be. Cousins won the Rising Star, Brownlow, Leigh Matthews Medal, six AAs, four B&Fs while playing alongside Judd... Bont would need to seriously lift his game to come close. Pendlebury has longevity but his peak was never near Cousins. Cousins was practically carrying the team in his third and fourth years and was brilliant through the 2000s.

I think you’ve answered your own question … ‘Cousins was practically carrying the team in his 3rd and 4th season …. These were prior to 2000. 2 of his AA were prior to 2000. His Rising star was prior to 2000. He had 5 excellent years in the 2000’s. Just 5. That doesn’t elevate him above others like Bont who has won 5 x B&F’s and already racked up 8-9 x very good or excellent seasons and 216 games.

If it was purely head to head in entire careers you could argue Cousins on par or above Selwood or Danger or Pendles, but not for output this century.


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[JackOutback]

Come on, man....

Two of his AA's were before 2000.

His first best and fairest was in 2001, before Judd was drafted.

His next two best and fairests were when Judd was 18 and 19 years old respectively.

He had a stellar year in 2005 when he won the Brownlow, Leigh Matthews Trophy and Club Best and Fairest. They were all in the same single season.

He gets points for being Club Captain, but loses points for the question marks over his 'leadership'.

He is well outside this team.

Cousins finished seventh in the Brownlow in his third season, has two fourths, a second and a win. He did all this while having Judd and Kerr in the team taking votes away. Trying to paint his career as having one stellar season is absurd and a sign of the myopic Victorian view.

 

[JackOutback]

I think you’ve answered your own question … ‘Cousins was practically carrying the team in his 3rd and 4th season …. These were prior to 2000. 2 of his AA were prior to 2000. His Rising star was prior to 2000. He had 5 excellent years in the 2000’s. Just 5. That doesn’t elevate him above others like Bont who has won 5 x B&F’s and already racked up 8-9 x very good or excellent seasons and 216 games.

If it was purely head to head in entire careers you could argue Cousins on par or above Selwood or Danger or Pendles, but not for output this century.


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This is where we differ, I guess. If the bulk of their career was this century, then I'm taking them into selection consideration and basing it on their overall career and skills as a player. I'm not taking out individual seasons and then comparing them against guys that have more seasons in this century. Cousins played more of his career this century and I would rate him as a player above several included in your team.

 

[Noidnadroj]

No way on god's green earth that Betts gets in ahead of Aker or Stevie J

Aker and Stevie may not have kicked as many goals as Betts, but they regularly lined up in a forward pocket and were simply far better and more accomplished players

I’d be happy with either of those changes. But Betts is 29th for goals kicked in the history of the game. 350 games. 5 x seasons with 50+ goals. Aker never kicked 50+ and Stevie J did it three times.

I agree Aker and Stevie J both superior players overall. If pushed I’d swap Betts for Stevie J as he’s almost his equal as a goal kicker.

But a bloke with 350 games and 640 goals, with 9th most goals this century and most for a ‘small’, is hardly out of place.


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[Fadge]

Cousins finished seventh in the Brownlow in his third season, has two fourths, a second and a win. He did all this while having Judd and Kerr in the team taking votes away. Trying to paint his career as having one stellar season is absurd and a sign of the myopic Victorian view.

Why do you keep referencing seasons that are irrelevant to the thread topic, and why do you keep misrepresenting what I am posting?

I know. It's called desperation.

Maybe you should start a Cousins v. Martin thread - you'd get plenty of bites there.

But this discussion ain't worth my while. See ya.