AFL Team of the 21st Century (Rolling)

[Stan_Darsh72]

B: Enright - Scarlett - McGovern
HB: McLoed - Rance - Hodge
C: Dangerfield - Voss - Cousins
HF: Martin - Riewoldt - Aka
F: Johnson - Franklin - Pavlich
R: Cox - Ablett - Judd
Int: Riccuutio - Goodes - Bartel - Fyfe

 

[curnow inferno]

Much as I like dangerfield I do agree with the logic BUT the view you’ve put forward is that he gets picked as a half forward because he’s not good enough to get picked as a mid. That’s simply not true.
He gets picked at half forward because it means they can squeeze other mids in who can ONLY play on the ball. Danger is good enough to play forward so they stick him there instead

Exactly. I couldn't be bothered typing this out when I read that post but this is very obviously how it is...

 

[curnow inferno]

Thought I'd give it a go, it's a really tough one, a lot of players are pretty much on equal terms but couldn't fit them in. Tried to pick a team to win a real world game with players in positions they played.

B: Matthew Scarlett Alex Rance Corey Enright
HB: Andrew McLeod Justin Leppitsch Luke Hodge
C: Jason Akermanis Michael Voss Chris Judd
HF: Steve Johnson Lance Franklin Brad Johnson
F: Stephen Milne Matthew Lloyd Eddie Betts
OB: Max Gawn Gary Abblett Dustin Martin
IC: Adam Goodes Nathan Buckley Simon Black Simon Goodwin
SUB: Ben Cousins

So your first post in this thread was criticising wings not being named wings then you name judd and aker on your wings

 

[TheUnicorn]

It's an absolute travesty that Nik Cox isn't on this list he can play any of these positions better than all of these players!

FB:	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)
HB:	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)
C:	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)
HF:	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)
FF:	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)
RR:	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)
INT:	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)	N.Cox (Ess)
COACH:	N.Cox (Ess)

 

[Seeds]

cyril also had two much better than average smalls alongside most of the time. Bruest fits your criteria too

He did ave good smalls alongside him making it even easier for him. And when hawthorn started to fall away cyrils performances hit rock bottom and he was probably facing being dropped nit long before he retired.

jeff farmer is another i would take ahead of cyril.

some might take milne as well.

 

[Seeds]

Aker and Stevie J is an interesting one. Both brilliant players. Not sure how you separate them.

Lake for McGovern also makes sense.

Buddy, Hodge, S Mitchell are locks for the 18. Mitchell could be HBF or Rover or Ruck Rover. Buddy could be FF or CHF.

Hodge is Captain and HBF.

Aker probably more of a speedy winger initially with run and carry whereas sj had more foward nous albeit less pace. Aker did develop A grade foward craft in the second half of his career though.

for the half foward/foward pocket role I pick sj who was a more proven goal scorer and goal assist player but aker is well up there when he was on.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Exactly. I couldn't be bothered typing this out when I read that post but this is very obviously how it is...

It seems to me on one hand you are claiming being selected in the AA team as laudable, then on the other hand you are discrediting the AA selection process by saying they don’t pick the best players in their best positions.

Is it right you are concluding the AA selectors have five times picked Dangerfield forward despite him being in the best 3-4 inside mids in the season just so they can accomodate an inferior midfielder into a starting mid position, because he could not play in another position?

From where I sit, the AA selection process is either credible or it isn’t. If they are not selecting THE best team to play in a hypothetical do or die game, then they don’t truly have the best 22 players. And if they aren’t selecting the best 22 players starting from the best players in their best positions then the process lacks credibility. And as such, Dangerfield’s 8 AA including apparently 5 at half forward must be seen as controversial, and therefore not a really strong argument for his inclusion in a team of the 21st century.

Could we fairly say he has 3 AA selections as a starting midfielder, and 5 selections as a forward that you have to impute motives to the selection committee in order to conclude that he also warranted a position in the starting midfield during some or all of those seasons?

I hate the AA process, I think it is a mess. One thing the AFL should do is just pick an actual team of the best players in their specialist roles each season, the team you would actually take into a game. If they also chose to select a best 22 AFL players list each season or something like that then fair enough, but don’t call it a footy team.

By selecting Dangerfield at half forward in your team of the 21st century you are reducing your “team” to a list of who you think have been the best 22 players of the 21st century. Dangerfield to me is a player with 4 club B & F’s, 1 Brownlow(and other roughly equivalent awards, all of which he credibly won in 2016,) and a decisive finals resume too disappointing to put him onto either a list of the best 22 players OR into the best actual team of the 21st century.

 

[HairyO]

Aker probably more of a speedy winger initially with run and carry whereas sj had more foward nous albeit less pace. Aker did develop A grade foward craft in the second half of his career though.

for the half foward/foward pocket role I pick sj who was a more proven goal scorer and goal assist player but aker is well up there when he was on.

When he was on he was easily the best player in the comp.

 

[gbatman]

So your first post in this thread was criticising wings not being named wings then you name judd and aker on your wings

Aker played on the wing a bit, Judd very early days but you're probably right, probably a spot for someone like Gaff.

 

[curnow inferno]

Aker played on the wing a bit, Judd very early days but you're probably right, probably a spot for someone like Gaff.

The AA selectors you criticise for not putting wings on wings also justify it by saying "player x played 16% wing"...

At the end of the day, people have different thoughts on how this team should be selected. In my opinion, you pick the best player you think would be able to play that role even if it is only their 2nd position rather than their main position, especially given most of the time players who play full time in those positions are only there full time because they are not good enough to play majority on ball.

For example, if leigh matthews played forward his entire career he likely wouldve had over 1500 goals. but if he played mid his entire career and only rested forward, would that make a permanent forward better than him in that position? danger and dusty have both proven they are very dangerous inside 50. but are too good to be kept there the whole game so play a lot of midfield too.

 

[Pessimistic]

Quite a few players who would be described as forwards go midfield a bit too, but they almost never get selected as mids.

do we think it’s because mids poll well in Brownlow and Such awards? Are awards chosen by comittee self fulfilling?

do we also downgrade such as Plugger and Chief Dunstall because they were ‘too fat’ to play on ball?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

The AA selectors you criticise for not putting wings on wings also justify it by saying "player x played 16% wing"...

At the end of the day, people have different thoughts on how this team should be selected. In my opinion, you pick the best player you think would be able to play that role even if it is only their 2nd position rather than their main position, especially given most of the time players who play full time in those positions are only there full time because they are not good enough to play majority on ball.

For example, if leigh matthews played forward his entire career he likely wouldve had over 1500 goals. but if he played mid his entire career and only rested forward, would that make a permanent forward better than him in that position? danger and dusty have both proven they are very dangerous inside 50. but are too good to be kept there the whole game so play a lot of midfield too.

What Leigh Matthews may or may not have done had he played his whole career forward is surely not a reason to pick Dangerfield on a HFF in your team of the 21st century. We have seen Dangerfield parked forward in big games on players like Grimes and he struggles to even get clear possessions let alone get involved in goals. He is a decent forward if and only if he gets a favourable matchup. To be in the best 22 from two whole generations of footballers to make a 21st century team you surely need to not go completely missing in your role every time you are well matched. The team needs to be the best of the best. Not made up of spud exploiting specialists like Dangerfield.

If you look at Dangerfield finals for the Cats against teams who finished the finals in the top four teams. If you add Dangerfield goals + goals assists in the finals against these teams you get 12 from 11 games.

To put that into context against say his contemporary Dustin Martin who plays a similar role, Martin’s corresponding figure in the same period is 31 goals + goal assists from 9 finals games against teams who finished top four after the finals.

A specialist half forward in Cyril Rioli in 15 finals against teams who finished in the top 4 post finals had 40 goals + goal assists in these games. Where is the evidence that Dangerfield plays that role better than Cyril Rioli when it matters? In Dangerfield’s absolute prime as a footballer despite 11 opportunities in finals against the teams who at least made a preliminary final, he has never done anything of note as a goal creator or finisher. None from 11. Dangerfield could not tie up the bootlaces of these type of guys you would want at half forward in a team of the 21st century.

 

[Seeds]

What Leigh Matthews may or may not have done had he played his whole career forward is surely not a reason to pick Dangerfield on a HFF in your team of the 21st century. We have seen Dangerfield parked forward in big games on players like Grimes and he struggles to even get clear possessions let alone get involved in goals. He is a decent forward if and only if he gets a favourable matchup. To be in the best 22 from two whole generations of footballers to make a 21st century team you surely need to not go completely missing in your role every time you are well matched. The team needs to be the best of the best. Not made up of spud exploiting specialists like Dangerfield.

If you look at Dangerfield finals for the Cats against teams who finished the finals in the top four teams. If you add Dangerfield goals + goals assists in the finals against these teams you get 12 from 11 games.

To put that into context against say his contemporary Dustin Martin who plays a similar role, Martin’s corresponding figure in the same period is 31 goals + goal assists from 9 finals games against teams who finished top four after the finals.

A specialist half forward in Cyril Rioli in 15 finals against teams who finished in the top 4 post finals had 40 goals + goal assists in these games. Where is the evidence that Dangerfield plays that role better than Cyril Rioli when it matters? In Dangerfield’s absolute prime as a footballer despite 11 opportunities in finals against the teams who at least made a preliminary final, he has never done anything of note as a goal creator or finisher. None from 11. Dangerfield could not tie up the bootlaces of these type of guys you would want at half forward in a team of the 21st century.

Where are you getting those stats on cyril? He played 19 finals for only 22 goals. He massively underperformed in finals.

not saying your argument against danger is wrong but pick a better example. Cyril does not help your argument.

 

[HairyO]

Where are you getting those stats on cyril? He played 19 finals for only 22 goals. He massively underperformed in finals.

not saying your argument against danger is wrong but pick a better example. Cyril does not help your argument.

If Cyril massively underperformed in finals despite winning a Norm Smith, how do you describe Selwood and Dangerfield who seem to shit the bed a lot in finals ?

 

[Seeds]

If Cyril massively underperformed in finals despite winning a Norm Smith, how do you describe Selwood and Dangerfield who seem to sh*t the bed a lot in finals ?

Dangerfield has massively underperformed in finals in the second half of his career no doubt. Its left a huge stain on his career.

selwood did in the early years but was a very good finals player in his peak years of 2011-16. As his form has waned in the past 5 years so has his final performances.

and you cant tell me 22 goals from 19 games from the premier permanent foward pocket in a team that wins 3 flags hasnt massively underperformed? Its only just over 1 goal a game for a permanent foward pocket. In those 19 finals he only managed to kick 3 goals or more once. And it was only 3.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Where are you getting those stats on cyril? He played 19 finals for only 22 goals. He massively underperformed in finals.

not saying your argument against danger is wrong but pick a better example. Cyril does not help your argument.

AFL Tables - Cyril Rioli - Stats - Statistics

Focus if you like just on Rioli's 10 x Preliminary Finals+Grand Finals. Here Rioli is playing the best teams in the biggest games. He played in 10 of those matches, two of which were in his very first season so well prior to his prime as a footballer, and one was first up off a long term injury. He scored 13 goals in PF/GFs and had 11 goal assists. From where I sit goals and goal assists are more or less of equal value. So 24 goals + goal assists total in 10 Preliminary Finals/Grand Finals. I know without checking this is very high for a small forward, but when you add to that his renowned elite defensive skills it is easy to see why he has a strong reputation as a big game player. You make the statement he massively under-performed in finals, what are you basing that on? It seems demonstrably and obviously wrong to me.

Dangerfield has played in 7 Prelims+GF’s. He has 9 goals+goal assists in those games.

For comparison with elite mids who rarely if ever played forward, Pendlebury got 7 goal+goal assists from 10 PF + GF’s. Chris Judd got 2 from 4 such games. Cousins 7 from 4 such games. Voss scored 10 goals from 8 such games and had 1 goal assist but goal assists were not recorded in 2001-02 when he played in 4 of the matches. Buckley 5 from 5 matches(but goal assists not recorded in 2 of his so his figure like Voss’s is likely higher.) Fyfe 3 from 3 such games. Dane Swan 8 from 8 such games.

It can vary according to your precise role in the midfield and other factors of course. Trent Cotchin has 2 goal + goal assists from his 7 PF+GF’s, whereas Dion Prestia from the same 7 games has 12 goals+goal assists(just about leading from all the pure inside mids I have looked at, surprisingly.) Sam Mitchell had 10 from 11. Joel Selwood 21 from 16.

So we can see from this basket of pretty much elite pure midfielders they are returning around or just below the goal impact figures of Dangerfield in the biggest games despite him spending much more time deep forward, sometimes isolated there and targeted.

But let's compare Cyril Rioli with say Stevie Johnson, who would be a more legit choice than Dangerfield as a small forward in the team of the 21st century I would think. Johnson played in 11 Preliminary+Grand Finals. He had 25 goals+goal assists in those. His average for goals+goal assists in PF and GFs is lower than Cyril Rioli’s, albeit a close run thing.

Paul Chapman is another genuine contender imo, had 25 goals + goal assists from 9 PF+GF’s, at a little better rate than Rioli. But both he and Johnson have filled their boots a bit in the total walkover 2007 GF, I am not sure Rioli got the benefit of a match like that. But if you take out each player’s best and worst match from the sample they will all sit pretty close.

Luke Breust is a specialist small forward team-mate of Rioli, he had a very strong 20 goals+goal assists from 8 PF/GF’s, but I would think most people would consider Rioli the better all round player based on his ability to win big contests and his brutal defensive game.

For the record Stephen Milne had 12 goal+goal assists in his 8 appearances in PF+GFs, so Cyril and the two Geelong forwards seem to be well ahead of him for scoreboard impact in these matches.

“The greatest of all time” Gary Ablett Jnr? 18 goals+goal assists from 11 PF + GFs. Well ahead of Dangerfield, well behind Cyril, Johnson, Chapman for scoreboard impact in these biggest games. Another big elite forward/mid for the Cats, Bartel had 18 from his 12 biggest games. Dion Prestia is ahead of all of Bartel, Ablett Jnr and Dangerfield for scoreboard impact from all of their Preliminary and Grand Finals. And between you and I, Kane Lambert with 14 from 7 is ahead of the lot of them.

Of all of them, if you want a small forward in a big game, I am selecting Cyril ahead of Chapman and Johnson, either of whom would also be worthy candidates. Of the elite mids maybe Ablett Junior is the only one I would consider, but I am guessing he has played most of his Preliminary and Grand Finals as a forward and not had near the scoreboard impact of Rioli.

 

[HairyO]

Dangerfield has massively underperformed in finals in the second half of his career no doubt. Its left a huge stain on his career.

selwood did in the early years but was a very good finals player in his peak years of 2011-16. As his form has waned in the past 5 years so has his final performances.

and you cant tell me 22 goals from 19 games from the premier permanent foward pocket in a team that wins 3 flags hasnt massively underperformed? Its only just over 1 goal a game for a permanent foward pocket. In those 19 finals he only managed to kick 3 goals or more once. And it was only 3.

Pretty sure Cyril's role was defensive and any goals he kicked were a bonus. Like Poppy.

Franklin, Roughead, Gunston and Breust were the goal kicking forwards.

You should watch the 2008 GF to see how good Cyril was in his 1st year.

 

[Pessimistic]

What Leigh Matthews may or may not have done had he played his whole career forward is surely not a reason to pick Dangerfield on a HFF in your team of the 21st century. We have seen Dangerfield parked forward in big games on players like Grimes and he struggles to even get clear possessions let alone get involved in goals. He is a decent forward if and only if he gets a favourable matchup. To be in the best 22 from two whole generations of footballers to make a 21st century team you surely need to not go completely missing in your role every time you are well matched. The team needs to be the best of the best. Not made up of spud exploiting specialists like Dangerfield.

If you look at Dangerfield finals for the Cats against teams who finished the finals in the top four teams. If you add Dangerfield goals + goals assists in the finals against these teams you get 12 from 11 games.

To put that into context against say his contemporary Dustin Martin who plays a similar role, Martin’s corresponding figure in the same period is 31 goals + goal assists from 9 finals games against teams who finished top four after the finals.

A specialist half forward in Cyril Rioli in 15 finals against teams who finished in the top 4 post finals had 40 goals + goal assists in these games. Where is the evidence that Dangerfield plays that role better than Cyril Rioli when it matters? In Dangerfield’s absolute prime as a footballer despite 11 opportunities in finals against the teams who at least made a preliminary final, he has never done anything of note as a goal creator or finisher. None from 11. Dangerfield could not tie up the bootlaces of these type of guys you would want at half forward in a team of the 21st century.

ouch

 

[Meteoric Rise]

ouch

It is a horror show for Dangerfield his performances in the big finals. The new breed of goal impacting mids in Petracca 10 goal+goal assists from 3 PF/GF’s and Bontempelli 10 from 4, have already overtaken what Dangerfield has achieved from 7PF/GF’s.

Let’s get this imposter off this thread where he doesn’t belong. You don’t get into the team of the 21st century for being a perpetual big game failure, fmd.

curnow inferno OP, we the people demand you relay this message to your runner in no uncertain terms, Barassi style, "Dangerfield off, Rioli on. Bloody weak as p1ss.”

 

[Pessimistic]

How’s Willie Rioli

15

Willie Rioli

Age

29

Ht

175cm

Wt

78kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.0

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.8

4star

G

1.2

4star

No current season stats available

D

11.0

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

3.6

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.6

3star

and flyin Ryan look, from limited starts. They certainly looked dangerous

 

[Meteoric Rise]

How’s Willie Rioli and flyin Ryan look, from limited starts. They certainly looked dangerous

W Rioli 4 goals+goal assists from 2 PF/GF’s.

L Ryan same, 4 from 2.

For the record, Jamie Cripps, continues the Eagle small forward theme of 2 per PF/GF. He has 8 from 4.

 

[Trav 20]

AFL Tables - Cyril Rioli - Stats - Statistics

Focus if you like just on Rioli's 10 x Preliminary Finals+Grand Finals. Here Rioli is playing the best teams in the biggest games. He played in 10 of those matches, two of which were in his very first season so well prior to his prime as a footballer, and one was first up off a long term injury. He scored 13 goals in PF/GFs and had 11 goal assists. From where I sit goals and goal assists are more or less of equal value. So 24 goals + goal assists total in 10 Preliminary Finals/Grand Finals. I know without checking this is very high for a small forward, but when you add to that his renowned elite defensive skills it is easy to see why he has a strong reputation as a big game player. You make the statement he massively under-performed in finals, what are you basing that on? It seems demonstrably and obviously wrong to me.

Dangerfield has played in 7 Prelims+GF’s. He has 9 goals+goal assists in those games.

For comparison with elite mids who rarely if ever played forward, Pendlebury got 7 goal+goal assists from 10 PF + GF’s. Chris Judd got 2 from 4 such games. Cousins 7 from 4 such games. Voss scored 10 goals from 8 such games and had 1 goal assist but goal assists were not recorded in 2001-02 when he played in 4 of the matches. Buckley 5 from 5 matches(but goal assists not recorded in 2 of his so his figure like Voss’s is likely higher.) Fyfe 3 from 3 such games. Dane Swan 8 from 8 such games.

It can vary according to your precise role in the midfield and other factors of course. Trent Cotchin has 2 goal + goal assists from his 7 PF+GF’s, whereas Dion Prestia from the same 7 games has 12 goals+goal assists(just about leading from all the pure inside mids I have looked at, surprisingly.) Sam Mitchell had 10 from 11. Joel Selwood 21 from 16.

So we can see from this basket of pretty much elite pure midfielders they are returning around or just below the goal impact figures of Dangerfield in the biggest games despite him spending much more time deep forward, sometimes isolated there and targeted.

But let's compare Cyril Rioli with say Stevie Johnson, who would be a more legit choice than Dangerfield as a small forward in the team of the 21st century I would think. Johnson played in 11 Preliminary+Grand Finals. He had 25 goals+goal assists in those. His average for goals+goal assists in PF and GFs is lower than Cyril Rioli’s, albeit a close run thing.

Paul Chapman is another genuine contender imo, had 25 goals + goal assists from 9 PF+GF’s, at a little better rate than Rioli. But both he and Johnson have filled their boots a bit in the total walkover 2007 GF, I am not sure Rioli got the benefit of a match like that. But if you take out each player’s best and worst match from the sample they will all sit pretty close.

Luke Breust is a specialist small forward team-mate of Rioli, he had a very strong 20 goals+goal assists from 8 PF/GF’s, but I would think most people would consider Rioli the better all round player based on his ability to win big contests and his brutal defensive game.

For the record Stephen Milne had 12 goal+goal assists in his 8 appearances in PF+GFs, so Cyril and the two Geelong forwards seem to be well ahead of him for scoreboard impact in these matches.

“The greatest of all time” Gary Ablett Jnr? 18 goals+goal assists from 11 PF + GFs. Well ahead of Dangerfield, well behind Cyril, Johnson, Chapman for scoreboard impact in these biggest games. Another big elite forward/mid for the Cats, Bartel had 18 from his 12 biggest games. Dion Prestia is ahead of all of Bartel, Ablett Jnr and Dangerfield for scoreboard impact from all of their Preliminary and Grand Finals. And between you and I, Kane Lambert with 14 from 7 is ahead of the lot of them.

Of all of them, if you want a small forward in a big game, I am selecting Cyril ahead of Chapman and Johnson, either of whom would also be worthy candidates. Of the elite mids maybe Ablett Junior is the only one I would consider, but I am guessing he has played most of his Preliminary and Grand Finals as a forward and not had near the scoreboard impact of Rioli.

If I'm interpreting your stats correctly Petracca had 9 goal+goal assists (3 goals and 6 goal assists) from just his PF and GF this year. I assume I'm correctly calculating what you're referencing ?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

If I'm interpreting your stats correctly Petracca had 9 goal+goal assists (3 goals and 6 goal assists) from just his PF and GF this year. I assume I'm correctly calculating what you're referencing ?

Sorry, yes, I originally quoted the wrong figure for Petracca in an earlier post.

He has played the 3 Prelims+Grand Finals across 2018 and 2021. He has 3 goals and 7 goal assists in these games, so 10 in total in 3 qualifying matches.

That is shaping around Dustin Martin levels, with the latter also having 10 after his first 3 PF/GFs. Martin now has 25 goals+goal assists from 7 PF/GFs, and you would probably adjust him upwards by about 2 for the shorter playing time in the 2020 finals. Petracca does appeal as a player who can match Martin’s feats.

A team with that pair changing forward and mid with each other in a Grand Final would be worth watching wouldn’t it? If so, send Christian across to Tigerwonderland and we’ll put him into a few more Prelims and Grand Finals, this time with Martin as his partner in crime.

 

[Seeds]

Pretty sure Cyril's role was defensive and any goals he kicked were a bonus. Like Poppy.

Franklin, Roughead, Gunston and Breust were the goal kicking forwards.

You should watch the 2008 GF to see how good Cyril was in his 1st year.

Yes cyril got some goals from tackle run downs. those count in his very low goal count already. All it does is make his goal from offensive plays even worse then they already look.

 

[HairyO]

Yes cyril got some goals from tackle run downs. those count in his very low goal count already. All it does is make his goal from offensive plays even worse then they already look.

I think in the 2015 GF it was 2 goals, 4 goal assists, but 12 or 13 score involvements. He had a hand in half our scores.