Anthony Albanese - How long? -3-

[Carn The Berries]

Costings are not facts. They are predictions.

Your bank balance is a fact. Your budget is a prediction.

Facts are things that have happened. They are different from predictions, analysis, assertions or hyperbole.

More precisely, the fact is that a costing has been developed. Which as I have already noted should be reported as such.

 

[Boxo004]

lol. Judging by your lack of understanding of why there is an international cost of living crisis shows that we need to boost spending on education.

Na just in touch with reality champ. Something you may need to get a grasp on

 

[CakeEater]

What does this mean
Net negatives?

Guardian Essential poll: Albanese disapproval at 50% as majority say Australia on the wrong track

In final survey of the year, nearly half say 2024 ended up being worse than they expected

www.theguardian.com

 

[Saint]

Being in opposition has its benefits and its problems. You make a mistake in opposition, it's impossible to fix because you can't do anything. Governments can make mistakes (and they make plenty of mistakes, regardless of party) but then have the power to fix them.

Also, on Julie Bishop, who I held in high regard: she was Foreign Affairs Minister. At the time this was largely an area of bipartisan agreement, so it's easy to look good when the opposition aren't whacking you and you spend a lot of time out of the country.

Being in opposition also suits the ALP because they have more free reign to say things and state opinion because no faction has to stop them from implementing it in law.

 

[MPMonkeys]

Reporting the news and writing opinion pieces should always be kept separate, and denoted as such.

In the example you have provided, you can report the factual points from both sides. The ALP have released on set of costings and the LNP have released another. People's opinions on each should be kept separate. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

It would also be boring as bat-shite and nobody would read it.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

You can't 'break-up' corporate media.

You don't seem to understand the power of governments. A government can break up any corporation if it's in the national interest to do so by passing laws to that effect. This was proven a century ago when US Congress broke up Standard Oil into over a dozen companies.

It's never worked anywhere in the democratic western world.

The definition of a conservative is someone who believes nothing should ever be tried for the first time.

Its a ridiculous concept to be honest.

Coming from you, I take that as a sign it's a very good idea.

You know how Albanese gets good media?
By being good at his job.

People are unhappy with him and Labor. The media are simply reporting and illustrating this. That's it. There is no big conspiracy. And obviously these media reports are resonating with the consumers otherwise they would have changed tack. Again, not rocket science.

Your extreme faith in the Australian media is on the same level as children believing in Santa Claus.

 

[MPMonkeys]

Here is the main page on the ABC website.

ABC News - Trusted Source of Latest News & Headlines

Follow the latest news headlines from Australia's most trusted source. Read in-depth expert analysis and watch live coverage on ABC News.

www.abc.net.au

How many stories on there are demonstrable facts?
Lots of analysis, predictions, perspectives and opinions.

I'm not having a go at the ABC. It's what a good media web-site should look like.

 

[MPMonkeys]

You don't seem to understand the power of governments. A government can break up any corporation if it's in the national interest to do so by passing laws to that effect. This was proven a century ago when US Congress broke up Standard Oil into over a dozen companies.

How?
We are in the digital age. Its basically impossible to remove media you don't like unless you want to use North Korea as the benchmark.
You are wishing for something that cannot possibly happen in a democratic country.

 

[JackOutback]

They need to report in a manner that is easily digestible. And that means a bit of hyperbole here, a flourish there, some opinion and some color.
Otherwise all you will get is a slab of information that nobody will read or consume which makes the 'journalism' pointless.

And I find the whole premise of 'facts' problematic anyway. One persons fact is another persons fiction. The costings around nuclear are a case in point. The Coalition have costed from one organization so in their views those costs are the 'facts' whilst Labor have costed from somewhere else so they have a different view of 'facts'.
You can't have two competing facts about the same problem statement but here we are.

Unless the story is completely binary, facts are always in question depending on who you talk to.

Here's a link to the journalists' code of ethics, pay particular attention to point one.

MEAA Journalist Code of Ethics

MEAA Journalist Code of Ethics MEAA initiated Australian media self-regulation in 1944 when it created the MEAA Journalist Code of Ethics (see the FAQs tab below). Under MEAA’s rules, registered with the Fair Work Commission, MEAA’s Journalist Code of Ethics only applies to MEAA Media’s...

www.meaa.org

You are mistaking the role of a profit-making media corporation with the role of the journalist. It is true that the two are more in conflict than they have ever been.

 

[Gralin]

What does Apple Australia do. They buy fully assembled stock and sell it. That's basically it. They add no value to the product at all. All of the value add is done elsewhere and majority owned by the US, so the majority of profits are awarded to the parent company. They take all the risks. If the parent company makes a bad decision and incurs a loss, Apple Australia isn't on the hook for that loss.

You need to think about Apple Australia as a seperate legal entity. Assume Apple US outsourced it's retail function to a third party company in Australia. Do you think that company deserves 25% of the profits?

BHP and RIO sell the majority of their iron ore to China. That doesn't give them the right to set up a sub in China and then conveniently book all the profits of those sales in China. The Chinese sub can get a sliver of the profits for perhaps arranging the sale but the profits remain here as the value add was done here.

what do apple do?

they run a business in Australia that sells products and services to people here and as such should pay tax here on the profits they made

that's how it works

multinationals set up all these separate legal entities to avoid paying tax, why you'd back them in this I have no idea, there's no benefit to the vast majority of us for it to be this way

 

[RedStarUncle]

"Anthony Albanese today said it was raining outside. Peter Dutton disputed the term rain given it was more of a light drizzle."
- Reporting of fact

"Anthony Albanese today said it was raining outside. Peter Dutton disputed the term rain given it was more of a light drizzle. Meteorologists mostly agree with one of these positions over the other"
- Reporting of fact with verification of context

"Anthony Albanese today said it was raining outside, despite claims that it was only a light drizzle. Here's Peter Dutton calling out the prime minister on his comments"
- Biased reporting

"Anthony Albanese today said it was raining outside. The guy is clearly out of touch as it was only a light drizzle. Fair go what is going on with this bloke. He shouldn't even be talking about the weather given the economic woes his government has created, yet here he was and he couldn't even get that right. The sooner we've got a PM who knows what a light drizzle is, the better. Can't wait for 2025 when Peter Dutton will wipe the floor with Albo"
- Sky News / opinion and entertainment masquerading as news

 

[Ice-Wolf]

I wouldn't go so far as saying the average voter, but many voters you could call average are in fact stupid in my opinion, as seen in 2019. If that opinion makes me elitist, so be it.

Yeah the 'Howard's Battler' voters who are only 'battlers' because they waster inordinate amounts of money by living far beyond their means.

I don't ever want to hear a tradie complaining about money when the reason most of them are 'broke' is because they piss it all away.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Reporting the news and writing opinion pieces should always be kept separate, and denoted as such.

In the example you have provided, you can report the factual points from both sides. The ALP have released on set of costings and the LNP have released another. People's opinions on each should be kept separate. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Just so old mate understands -

The facts of Dutton’s nuclear policy is it makes no mathematical sense.

My opinion of it therefore is that it’s a pile of shit.

 

[MPMonkeys]

"Anthony Albanese today said it was raining outside. Peter Dutton disputed the term rain given it was more of a light drizzle."
- Reporting of fact

"Anthony Albanese today said it was raining outside. Peter Dutton disputed the term rain given it was more of a light drizzle. Meteorologists mostly agree with one of these positions over the other"
- Reporting of fact with verification of context

"Anthony Albanese today said it was raining outside, despite claims that it was only a light drizzle. Here's Peter Dutton calling out the prime minister on his comments"
- Biased reporting

"Anthony Albanese today said it was raining outside. The guy is clearly out of touch as it was only a light drizzle. Fair go what is going on with this bloke. He shouldn't even be talking about the weather given the economic woes his government has created, yet here he was and he couldn't even get that right. The sooner we've got a PM who knows what a light drizzle is, the better. Can't wait for 2025 when Peter Dutton will wipe the floor with Albo"
- Sky News / opinion and entertainment masquerading as news

That's quite good.

But the reality of the media is nobody would read/consume points one or two. They may relate to point three and they would engage with point four.
Point four is not technically incorrect as the opening part reported what Albanese said. The rest is opinion which doesn't take away from the opening fact.

 

[RedStarUncle]

what do apple do?

they run a business in Australia that sells products and services to people here and as such should pay tax here on the profits they made

that's how it works

multinationals set up all these separate legal entities to avoid paying tax, why you'd back them in this I have no idea, there's no benefit to the vast majority of us for it to be this way

The problem is defining the profits they make... because the profit point is artificial based on the transfer prices between the sub-entities.

If I make something in Narnia where taxes are low, I put all my margin on the price out of Narnia and pay minimal tax on it. That means the price into Australia is high, and they only put enough extra margin on it to cover internal costs in that market with minimal profit. So technically the good is being sold in Australia to generate profit for the company, but the profit has been put on the pre-import side of the supply chain.


The Narnia entity has a right to profit before export... so who gets to say what that profit should be? The Australian government? The Narnia government?

 

[kranky al]

So let's now think about the value chain of all of Apple's products. Where does the value get created? Here in Australia or in the US?

What sort of return should Apple Australia get for providing what is essentially a retail function. Australia doesn't contribute to R&D or manufacturing at all. A retailer profit margin is somewhere around 3 - 4% but I would expect Apple to be a little higher as they provide warranty services.

If we take taxable income as a proxy for profit, Apple runs at about a 5% profit margin and then pays 30% of that profit as tax.

That’s a lovely justification for transfer pricing.


I mean it’s Lamer than an essentologists excuse for PED use in the great “I lost the list of drugs injected into our players” saga but hey… you do you.


Clearly as you assert that where the value is created is where it should be taxed they are then creating that value in Ireland / Holland?

What’s that you say? They don’t actually create anything in Ireland or Holland?

They create it in China? Why aren’t they paying that tax in china where the value is created according to your paradigm you just invented as a pissweak justification for transfer pricing to avoid tax.

I do hope multinational chode is tasty. I mean seeing as it clearly lives permanently in your gag zone….


Meanwhile Apple relies on our infrastructure, internet, roads, intellectual property rules, education system and every other thing we provide for them that makes their business so profitable in Australia - yet refuse to contribute to it….. and have turd burping apologists trying to make pathetically lame excuses to try and justify something that to any person with an ounce of critical thinking ability, to be utterly unjustifiable.

 

[Gralin]

The problem is defining the profits they make... because the profit point is artificial based on the transfer prices between the sub-entities.

If I make something in Narnia where taxes are low, I put all my margin on the price out of Narnia and pay minimal tax on it. That means the price into Australia is high, and they only put enough extra margin on it to cover internal costs in that market with minimal profit. So technically the good is being sold in Australia to generate profit for the company, but the profit has been put on the pre-import side of the supply chain.


The Narnia entity has a right to profit before export... so who gets to say what that profit should be? The Australian government? The Narnia government?

thats a separate discussion to the argument that they should't even pay taxes here but does bring up another way they avoid paying

 

[RedStarUncle]

That's quite good.

But the reality of the media is nobody would read/consume points one or two. They may relate to point three and they would engage with point four.
Point four is not technically incorrect as the opening part reported what Albanese said. The rest is opinion which doesn't take away from the opening fact.

Problem is... if we've descended to a point where the first two examples are not viable as "the news" due to "commercial considerations"... we've pretty much hit the end-game for democracy as we know it.

 

[peetoo]

But when you survey real people, you get a very different story

Cost of Living Survey & Statistics 2024 - Budget Direct

Find out how Australians feel about the increasing cost of living in our latest survey, as well as the latest data from the Cost of Living Index in 2024.

www.budgetdirect.com.au

Budget direct would be in the premier league of gouging existing customers.

Seeing as they don’t even include any form of insurance in their ‘survey’ I’d suggest a deflection exercise

 

[Gavin Excell]

"Anthony Albanese today said it was raining outside. Peter Dutton disputed the term rain given it was more of a light drizzle."
- Reporting of fact

"Anthony Albanese today said it was raining outside. Peter Dutton disputed the term rain given it was more of a light drizzle. Meteorologists mostly agree with one of these positions over the other"
- Reporting of fact with verification of context

"Anthony Albanese today said it was raining outside, despite claims that it was only a light drizzle. Here's Peter Dutton calling out the prime minister on his comments"
- Biased reporting

"Anthony Albanese today said it was raining outside. The guy is clearly out of touch as it was only a light drizzle. Fair go what is going on with this bloke. He shouldn't even be talking about the weather given the economic woes his government has created, yet here he was and he couldn't even get that right. The sooner we've got a PM who knows what a light drizzle is, the better. Can't wait for 2025 when Peter Dutton will wipe the floor with Albo"
- Sky News / opinion and entertainment masquerading as news

Nobody takes Sky seriously though.
It's a pantomime where Albo is evil and wretched and Peter is the shining white knight destined to set us all free

 

[RedStarUncle]

thats a separate discussion to the argument that they should't even pay taxes here but does bring up another way they avoid paying

Are they avoiding paying taxes some other way? I just assumed multinationals only avoided their taxes by managing the transfer pricing. It's wrong, but I don't see any good solution. Other than through international trade rules and agreements.

 

[peetoo]

Being in opposition also suits the ALP because they have more free reign to say things and state opinion because no faction has to stop them from implementing it in law.

Of course the coalition don’t have factions, cos on faction has almost obliterated the other

 

[MPMonkeys]

Nobody takes Sky seriously though.
It's a pantomime where Albo is evil and wretched and Peter is the shining white knight destined to set us all free

I'm always amused by the amount of Lefties on here that seemingly religiously watch Sky News. I would watch an hour a week at an absolute maximum.

It also says something about their business model that they can get people who don't like them to still consume their product.
Like a Carlton supporter who always goes to Collingwood games.

 

[RedStarUncle]

Nobody takes Sky seriously though.
It's a pantomime where Albo is evil and wretched and Peter is the shining white knight destined to set us all free

Is it true though that no-one takes it seriously?

It's probably only a small sliver that take it seriously as consumers, but by presenting itself as a news outlet and combined with various other outlets sitting anywhere between "mildly biased" and "outrageously hyperbolic" they wield the power to create an overall impression to the unengaged voter.

Even if I knew enough to take Sky News with a grain of salt... I've still got my uncle and that one guy at work parroting their opinions. Plus that headline on the newspaper saying Albo doesn't know what he's doing in a more subtle way. Plus a few things popping up on my social media telling me Dutton is going to win the next election. For a lot of the electorate... that's going to convince them Albo is no good and Dutton would be better before they've even thought about the reality of what each one is offering.

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

what do apple do?

they run a business in Australia that sells products and services to people here and as such should pay tax here on the profits they made

that's how it works

multinationals set up all these separate legal entities to avoid paying tax, why you'd back them in this I have no idea, there's no benefit to the vast majority of us for it to be this way

As I said, I like BHP and RIO booking their profits here rather than in China where their major customer is.

Apple is a retail business. Walmart is the biggest retailer in the world. Do you know what their profit margin is? It's 2.5%. Think of Apple Australia as a Walmart. All they do is buy a complete good and sell it to a customer. They earn a rate of return commensurate with that and then they pay 30% of that profit as tax.