Are bulldogs in for a lot of short term pain?

[Confuscius]

Liam Jones looks like a gun.

For a 21 year old who's only played 33 games he's showing as much as Hawkins or Cloke were at that stage if not more.

He can already take a good contested mark.

Disagree strongly with this. He looks ok but still needs a lot of development imo. Can take a mark but he looks lost at times, Cloke won a b&f at 20 then had a few lean years, but he hasn't shown anywhere near what he did.

Maybe comparable Hawkins, but he had a lot more to contend with at Geelong for a spot in the team, and with their success of their existing lineup it was going to be tough for him to get early games which may have limited what he was showing to us viewers.

The only question for me with the Dogs looking ahead is their key forwards, I know they're still developing but they're still getting decent supply with the Dogs midfield so hopefully they dominate a game soon to show they truly are capable. You can't question their young midfielders, they have settled in without a hitch.

Can't compare it to Melbourne either, the Doggies are having a genuine crack most weeks, and their senior players appear to be more than casually interested.

 

[jeemak]

Not exactly. sure what you mean by your last sentence but what i am saying is imo Melbourne have a much larger supporter base
And this is where your money comes from in memberships, apparel. and things like footy sponsorship.

Your reply

Demolishing the debt has been an excellent campaign from the Dees, to this point.

Though I would ask why they haven't capitalised on their significantly larger supporter base, merchandise sales and ability to attract sponsors to this day? Why haven't these factors already resulted in on-field performance throughout the time they've been bottoming out and accumulating draft picks over the last four or so years?

If these are the factors that matter, why haven't they shown improvement during this time?

 

[doggies ftw]

Also I dont know if you know this but we also have 5 top 50 picks this year (around there anyway)

So 5 top 50 picks (obviously worse picks than Melbourne but not by much and lets be honest they dont have the best record in that area) going into a decent team with leaders and structure or 5 slightly higher top 50 picks going into a team with a losing culture (at the moment, obviously overall they have been more successful but whatever the past is the past) and hardly any senior leaders.

We will most likely be getting 2 top 10 picks unless of course we pick up a bit which we have been in the last few weeks and get a bit higher than we thought we would, which would be great but also not that great in the long run.

Wallis is not really just an accumulator, at u18s level he was pretty highly skilled and thats u18 level doesnt mean that much but he has a good kick on him.

Still got Clay Smith in the middle who looks a likely type and then Talia who is making great progress to cover Lake, coupled with some other good types in the reserves (see Lin Jongs game on the weekend? very exciting) and I think we should draft at least one linebreaking skilful mid with our first pick and we will be fine.

Our young "plodder" mids outplayed the reining premiers mids today if you hadnt seen the game.

Underrate us if you want but I am pretty excited to be honest.

Edit: Also without Libba and Wallis at the bottom of the packs who do you think is going to give all these skilful fast flashy players the ball? You need a good mix in the middle and we are building that.

 

[jeemak]

Disagree strongly with this. He looks ok but still needs a lot of development imo. Can take a mark but he looks lost at times, Cloke won a b&f at 20 then had a few lean years, but he hasn't shown anywhere near what he did.

Maybe comparable Hawkins, but he had a lot more to contend with at Geelong for a spot in the team, and with their success of their existing lineup it was going to be tough for him to get early games which may have limited what he was showing to us viewers.

The only question for me with the Dogs looking ahead is their key forwards, I know they're still developing but they're still getting decent supply with the Dogs midfield so hopefully they dominate a game soon to show they truly are capable. You can't question their young midfielders, they have settled in without a hitch.

Can't compare it to Melbourne either, the Doggies are having a genuine crack most weeks, and their senior players appear to be more than casually interested.

I would agree with you with respect to Cloke, Jones isn't nearly as accomplished as Cloke was at 20.

With respect to Hawkins as a comparision, I think if Jones was playing in Geelong's side circa 2009-2011 as a developing player he'd have a lot more going for him. Last year he was in the top handfull of players in the league for contested marks on the back of having Hall taking most of the heat. Hawkins had Moonee and Podsiadly to give him a chop out, though he still underperformed compared to expectaion (perhaps the expectations were too high on him, for what it's worth, I think they were).

Jones is shouldering all of the responsibility up forward now due to our poor recruiting and development of key forwards throughout the last decade. As the team improves, Jones' output will.

 

[Contador]

We have a decimated backline and extremely inexperienced forwardline and are still competing with some of the best teams in the comp (Adelaide, Collingwood, Geelong). Young defenders are coming through to replace the older guys (this is the area that needs most attention), we have some young stars in midfield (Libba will seriously be a gun, is already dominating games), classy players in Cooney, Griffen and Higgins have many years in them, some good ruck stocks and tall forwards appearing. Add a few more years of draft talent before we are expected to compete again and I am struggling to see where this pain is going to come from.

Unless by short term pain you actually mean a normal rebuilding phase..

 

[The_Flying_Egg]

Maybe comparable Hawkins, but he had a lot more to contend with at Geelong for a spot in the team, and with their success of their existing lineup it was going to be tough for him to get early games which may have limited what he was showing to us viewers.

It was tougher for Hawkins to get games but Jones right now is 21, playing as the number 1 forward target and usually getting the best tall defender. Not an easy job for someone who's played 30 games

This thread seems oddly timed to me, I would have thought that the Dogs are exceeding expectations, in no small part due to improvement from young guys.

I'm very happy with the approach the players are taking. The side has holes but the work ethic and contested play has been first class. The young guys r playing the game the right way. Not every team can say that*

 

[doggies ftw]

Also on Jones, if you had watched any games this year you would have seen the 3 defenders he has had to put up with week after week, but yes his kicking needs a LOT of work and HOPEFULLY that comes with time.

Oh yeah and the fact that Morris, Williams, Markovich are out, our 3 first picked key defenders after Lake, our backline is standing up pretty well without them, and Wood to provide rebound. Say what you want about Williams, but the truth is our backline sticks together so much better with him there, only problem is he breaks down a lot but really what can you do?

 

[Tbone McGraw]

Demolishing the debt has been an excellent campaign from the Dees, to this point.

Though I would ask why they haven't capitalised on their significantly larger supporter base, merchandise sales and ability to attract sponsors to this day? Why haven't these factors already resulted in on-field performance throughout the time they've been bottoming out and accumulating draft picks over the last four or so years?

If these are the factors that matter, why haven't they shown improvement during this time?

The last point i made in my op is that dogs could be in more trouble than demons and i have given my reasons. Unfortunately a lot of my other points were not really answered by dogs fans but that's Bigfooty .

I never meant this thread to be about dogs vs demons. Personally i don't really mind either team but i do love footy

Cheers guys..

 

[doggies ftw]

ok because you seem like a decent poster i will explain my theory.

Melbourne are screwed this year but they will get say 5 top 40 picks this year. Trade sylvia and other for whatever they can get. Bring in guys that want to play footy, like John mccarthy, but there are plenty of them out there.

dogs problem is they are too good a team to get those great draft picks. Can they trade higggins, gia, cooney as they won't be around for your next flag.

Also I dont know if you know this but we also have 5 top 50 picks this year (around there anyway)

So 5 top 50 picks (obviously worse picks than Melbourne but not by much and lets be honest they dont have the best record in that area) going into a decent team with leaders and structure or 5 slightly higher top 50 picks going into a team with a losing culture (at the moment, obviously overall they have been more successful but whatever the past is the past) and hardly any senior leaders.

We will most likely be getting 2 top 10 picks unless of course we pick up a bit which we have been in the last few weeks and get a bit higher than we thought we would, which would be great but also not that great in the long run.

But yeah thats just bigfooty...

 

[amer]

I don't think it's reasonable to look at Jones/Grant and such and say it's all good because they're youthful. They need to be able to play a bit. Jones doesn't look much chop to me. Grant has shown promise at various junctures.

Get the feeling their next star up forward hasn't been listed yet.

 

[jeemak]

The last point i made in my op is that dogs could be in more trouble than demons and i have given my reasons. Unfortunately a lot of my other points were not really answered by dogs fans but that's Bigfooty .

I never meant this thread to be about dogs vs demons. Personally i don't really mind either team but i do love footy

Cheers guys..

Obviously you missed the post that advised we'll receive 5 draft picks in the top 50 in this upcoming draft. That's one in every ten players picked, with two of those players likely to be sourced from the top ten or twelve players, depending on results.

If you can gaurantee me that Melbourne's going to use their picks in the same rounds better than the Bulldogs, then fair enough. So far you've said on the back of their larger supporter base, greater potential for merchandise sales and ability to attract sponsorship they'll be in a better position to prosper. I call bullshit on that. You need to explain how these things will happen and how they will transfer across to your thoughts becoming reality. Because current history suggests there's more to it than that.

That's Bigfooty? If you're going to stick your balls on the line and post opinion without reasonable basis then you're going to be questioned on the content of your posts. Sure, you get some noise from all sorts of types on this site, though if you take the time to sift through that noise and respond to the posts that are relevant to your attempted justifications you'll be less frustrated.

 

[Tbone McGraw]

Obviously you missed the post that advised we'll receive 5 draft picks in the top 50 in this upcoming draft. That's one in every ten players picked, with two of those players likely to be sourced from the top ten or twelve players, depending on results.

If you can gaurantee me that Melbourne's going to use their picks in the same rounds better than the Bulldogs, then fair enough. So far you've said on the back of their larger supporter base, greater potential for merchandise sales and ability to attract sponsorship they'll be in a better position to prosper. I call bullshit on that. You need to explain how these things will happen and how they will transfer across to your thoughts becoming reality. Because current history suggests there's more to it than that.

That's Bigfooty? If you're going to stick your balls on the line and post opinion without reasonable basis then you're going to be questioned on the content of your posts. Sure, you get some noise from all sorts of types on this site, though if you take the time to sift through that noise and respond to the posts that are relevant to your attempted justifications you'll be less frustrated.

mate, if i can call u that, i don't get upset. I appreciate the banter.

Since you are the one dogs fan that responds to me can you explain quickly where the dogs are at financially. and with members. I am interested because i really like the dogs.

No worries if u can't.

 

[Footscrazy]

Losses dont come much better than this tonight
48 touches between Libba and Wallis
Wallis BOG for us, not bad for teenagers
Tracking pretty well I'd say

The only better loss i've seen for a long time is the game where Gia tested the integrity of KozShiTski's melon

 

[doggies ftw]

Obviously you missed the post that advised we'll receive 5 draft picks in the top 50 in this upcoming draft. That's one in every ten players picked, with two of those players likely to be sourced from the top ten or twelve players, depending on results.

If you can gaurantee me that Melbourne's going to use their picks in the same rounds better than the Bulldogs, then fair enough. So far you've said on the back of their larger supporter base, greater potential for merchandise sales and ability to attract sponsorship they'll be in a better position to prosper. I call bullshit on that. You need to explain how these things will happen and how they will transfer across to your thoughts becoming reality. Because current history suggests there's more to it than that.

That's Bigfooty? If you're going to stick your balls on the line and post opinion without reasonable basis then you're going to be questioned on the content of your posts. Sure, you get some noise from all sorts of types on this site, though if you take the time to sift through that noise and respond to the posts that are relevant to your attempted justifications you'll be less frustrated.

Hey come on now, what about Melbourne DOESN'T make you think that they will rake in the members/sponsers?

 

[jeemak]

mate, if i can call u that, i don't get upset. I appreciate the banter.

Since you are the one dogs fan that responds to me can you explain quickly where the dogs are at financially. and with members. I am interested because i really like the dogs.

No worries if u can't.

We're facing a dip in membership on the back of losing three consecutive preliminary finals, and not performing very well last year when many pundits didn't see that we were an ageing list in decline, and nominating us as potential grand finalists. The current economic pressures on working class families aren't helping either, and these types of families make up a significant portion of our supporter base.

We are still in debt, and we are reliant on poker machine revenue to sustain ourselves. We also rely on special assistance from the AFL, and with this we're only likley to ever return modest six figure profits. We run lean, though we're effectively managed.

The special assistance is provided to us on the back of the AFL securring TV rights on the basis of having 18 teams in the competition, as well as having significant inequity in the draw and access to FTA timeslots for teams like ours. Ultimately, aside from our supporter numbers and membership numbers we're significantly hampered by our stadium deals which were borne out of coercement from the AFL in to having to play at Docklands on the back of the AFL's stadium rationalisation policy. The stupid ethos of the AFL that suggests prosperity of the game overall should be funded by maximising revenue from gate receipts and TV viewership generated from blockbusters played by a select few hasn't helped either. For some reason having more money is preferable to the AFL, than having an even competition.

I think if you canvassed the opinion of many Melbourne based clubs, they'd pinpoint the above as issues they're battling as well.

With all of that, your entire premis for being concerned for us and the team you've selected as a comparison isn't relevant. I'm sorry, you need to explain yourself more comprehensively to gain any credit.

 

[doggies ftw]

mate, if i can call u that, i don't get upset. I appreciate the banter.

Since you are the one dogs fan that responds to me can you explain quickly where the dogs are at financially. and with members. I am interested because i really like the dogs.

No worries if u can't.

Again, don't worry about replying to mine or Jeemaks post about our picks this year 'cause thats bigfooty.

I don't think it's reasonable to look at Jones/Grant and such and say it's all good because they're youthful. They need to be able to play a bit. Jones doesn't look much chop to me. Grant has shown promise at various junctures.

Get the feeling their next star up forward hasn't been listed yet.

Sure you cant say its all good, thats fair enough (although its not like we're the only team hoping on youth)

I will give you Grant he hasnt improved much since 2010 (which I thought was a top year by him) this year he is playing with a lot more intensity but isnt really a FF type as we thought he would be, but hey thats life, you win some you lose some.

But to say Jones cant play "a bit" is just plain wrong, the fact that as a 20 year old KEY POSITION PLAYER (you know those ones that dont usually come on for a few years) was top 5 in contested marks, thats being able to play "a bit" just there. He has had a poor year sure (But Sam Reid is such a future gun/superstar that this poor year he is having means nothing, but dont get me wrong, nothing against him, love the kid and would kill to have him at the dogs)

If you had seen any of our games you would see that Jones is a single target most of the time and usually has 2-3 defenders guarding him, not bad for a 21 year old right? Played a lot better tonight when there was other options to kick too as well, not just him, thats why he needs a FF to help him out as really he is a Riewoldt type CHF.

Criticize his kicking all you want (to be fair if that doesn't improve then he probably wont ever be as good as we are hoping) but he is usually a pretty decent field kick and the goal kicking looks more like confidence/technique (he just stabs at them from the 30m range, much better kick from further out)

So yes we do need another forward, but I have high hopes (sure could be let down, again thats life, thats football) that our future FF is on our list - Tom Hill and Matthew Panos could easily deserve a call up any game now and Jack Redpath is showing good signs in the reserves (PLEASE Jack, if he comes good he will destroy teams, an absolute beast of a man he is )

Anyway sorry if I am coming across rude or anything I really dont mean it, I'm tired and still disappointed in the final result tonight (which I have every right to be!)

 

[Tbone McGraw]

We're facing a dip in membership on the back of losing three consecutive preliminary finals, and not performing very well last year when many pundits didn't see that we were an ageing list in decline, and nominating us as potential grand finalists. The current economic pressures on working class families aren't helping either, and these types of families make up a significant portion of our supporter base.

We are still in debt, and we are reliant on poker machine revenue to sustain ourselves. We also rely on special assistance from the AFL, and with this we're only likley to ever return modest six figure profits. We run lean, though we're effectively managed.

The special assistance is provided to us on the back of the AFL securring TV rights on the basis of having 18 teams in the competition, as well as having significant inequity in the draw and access to FTA timeslots for teams like ours. Ultimately, aside from our supporter numbers and membership numbers we're significantly hampered by our stadium deals which were borne out of coercement from the AFL in to having to play at Docklands on the back of the AFL's stadium rationalisation policy. The stupid ethos of the AFL that suggests prosperity of the game overall should be funded by maximising revenue from gate receipts and TV viewership generated from blockbusters played by a select few hasn't helped either. For some reason having more money is preferable to the AFL, than having an even competition.

I think if you canvassed the opinion of many Melbourne based clubs, they'd pinpoint the above as issues they're battling as well.

With all of that, your entire premis for being concerned for us and the team you've selected as a comparison isn't relevant. I'm sorry, you need to explain yourself more comprehensively to gain any credit.

I appreciate your detailed reply. As i mentioned, i live in Sydney. but have supported collingwood my whole life, so i probably don't understand your hardship. Actually i do. We were screwed and then Eddie arrived.

However, in all sincerity, i wish the bulldogs all the best.

Just as a reference, i watched the doco 'year of the dog' in the late 90s and thought it was brilliant.

I know you won't give a shit what i think and that is good. Clubs like bulldogs have to become more ruthless.

When you are hated you are successful.

 

[jeemak]

I appreciate your detailed reply. As i mentioned, i live in Sydney. but have supported collingwood my whole life, so i probably don't understand your hardship. Actually i do. We were screwed and then Eddie arrived.

However, in all sincerity, i wish the bulldogs all the best.

Just as a reference, i watched the doco 'year of the dog' in the late 90s and thought it was brilliant.

I know you won't give a shit what i think and that is good. Clubs like bulldogs have to become more ruthless.

When you are hated you are successful.

Or it might just be when you're hated, people think you're an areshole and you disgust them.

I don't hate Geelong, I don't hate Collingwood. I couldn't think of anything more counter productive than hating a football club. I sometimes hate the areseholes that support them though.

That's not a reference to you, of course. I wouldn't post in answer to yours if that was the case.

 

[Tbone McGraw]

Again, don't worry about replying to mine or Jeemaks post about our picks this year 'cause thats bigfooty.

I have answered all the questions Jeemaks asked of me. Maybe i didn't get you personally but what would you like to ask.

You are like the the third bloke in.

 

[jeemak]

I have answered all the questions Jeemaks asked of me. Maybe i didn't get you personally but what would you like to ask.

You are like the the third bloke in.

Sorry mate, you haven't nearly answered how you perceive off field performance of the comparison club you mentioned, which you claim to be either potentially greater than ours, or currently better than ours will tranlate in to on field success after this years draft.

I've been pretty fourthrite in my respones, it's time you put on the table the reasoning behind your claims.

 

[Tbone McGraw]

Or it might just be when you're hated, people think you're an areshole and you disgust them.

I don't hate Geelong, I don't hate Collingwood. I couldn't think of anything more counter productive than hating a football club. I sometimes hate the areseholes that support them though.

That's not a reference to you, of course. I wouldn't post in answer to yours if that was the case.[/QUOTE

You are quite naive if you don't think collingwood is hated by almost everyone. It annoys me to no end as we are judged once we say we support collingwood.

Anyway that's off topic. I like your passion for the dogs.

 

[Tbone McGraw]

Sorry mate, you haven't nearly answered how you perceive off field performance of the comparison club you mentioned, which you claim to be either potentially greater than ours, or currently better than ours will tranlate in to on field success after this years draft.

I've been pretty fourthrite in my respones, it's time you put on the table the reasoning behind your claims.

Are you serious?

My main point is Melbourne has a bigger supporter base than western bulldogs. I can't back that up with facts as i don't support either side but i believe it is common knowledge. Maybe you can disprove it.

what are your other questions?

 

[gimp!]

Are you serious?

My main point is Melbourne has a bigger supporter base than western bulldogs. I can't back that up with facts as i don't support either side but i believe it is common knowledge. Maybe you can disprove it.

what are your other questions?

I have one. did you forget to take your meds?

 

[jeemak]

Are you serious?

My main point is Melbourne has a bigger supporter base than western bulldogs. I can't back that up with facts as i don't support either side but i believe it is common knowledge. Maybe you can disprove it.

what are your other questions?

Supporter Base
Draft Picks
?????????
Profit/Premierships


Yes, I am serious.

You have not, in any of your posts detailed how Melbourne will capitalise on supporter base, merchandise sales or whatever, plus draft picks will help them be a better side.

I don't know how I can be any clearer in my posting, I'm really doing my best. I've answered all your questions, all you've done is make sweeping statements.

OK, let's assume Melbourne's supporter base versus WB supporter base isn't going to change in ratio, over say a period starting from fifteen years ago compared to the next five to ten years. What are they going to do as a club, on the back of that, to win games and produce a good football team.

All you've said is that because they have more supporters they'll be more successful. That's crap, because the relative positions of the two clubs haven't changed over a period of time, and performances in the last few years and right now don't reflect it.. You need to demonstrate how it will make a difference.

I'm not going to explain that again, seriously.

 

[Sedat!]

The reality is Liberatore is a plodder

Obviously you don't rate the talents of Priddis and Jobe Watson then either. Libba is hands down the best U-20 inside clearance winner in the competition. It will be scary to see him relentlessly muscle the ball out of stoppages time and again after another couple of pre-seasons - actually he's doing this a far bit now.