Are bulldogs in for a lot of short term pain?

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I want to address this as reasonably as I can:

Let's have a look at tonight's team:

B: Robert Murphy, Brian Lake, Ryan Hargrave
Good to great careers, none of whom are likely to be around when the Bulldogs next contend.

Murphy could play for another 4 years at this rate
Lake, sure won't be around for the next run, but worth playing out his time here. Pretty sure we wouldn't get too much for him in any trade.
Hargrave is IMO a solid journyman who is overrate by many WB supportors. I'd be surprised if he plays next year, and even then it will be a limtied roll. Markovik or Austin will be adquite replacements.


HB: Daniel Cross, Mark Austin, Patrick Veszpremi
See above re Cross. I'll admit I don't know much about Auston. Vesz is a bit of a journeyman now, hasn't lived up to previously considered potential, probably limited upside.

Cross is playing some good footy atm, but he's on borrowed time. In a similar boat to Lake, but is also the perfect roll model for our younger mids.
Same goes for Morris, although depends alot on how he comes back from injury.
Austin (21 games) has been surprisingly good for a guy we basically pick off the scrap heap
Generally agree about Veszpremi.

Wood certainly end up a starting HBF. Howard is still an unknown. Tom Williams is a good/solid CHB when fit (which is never). Tutt has shown a bit as a pace small swingman

C: Zephaniah Skinner, Matthew Boyd, Justin Sherman
Too raw to judge. Great player and captain but again, aging. Journeyman, limited upside.
Skinner, agree
Boyd, agree, but will go long then Cross
Sherman, dispite his draw backs, adds a lot of much needed pace

HF: Shaun Higgins, Jordan Roughead, Daniel Giansiracusa
Likely never going to live up to his potential, now bordering on being a whipping boy. Could be very good, but very raw. Declining.

F: Luke Dahlhaus, Ayce Cordy, Mitchell Wallis
Could be very good, developing nicely. Could be very good, but very raw. See earlier post, but at least should be consistently good.

Foll: William Minson, Ryan Griffen, Liam Picken
Playing well this year, but not a number 1 ruckman in a finals side. Elite (but i have an issue i know i won't get much traction on here). Great team man but limited.

Agree with almost all that.
Would rate Picken higher, but that's just me.

I/C: Adam Cooney, Thomas Liberatore, Daniel Pearce, Tory Dickson
Injuries have cruelled him. See earlier post. First game. Would rather they play a younger player but has had a few good moments.

Liberatore continues to show unnatural composure for such a young play. I think he'll be a star (better then Wallis)

For a late draft pick, Tory Dickson has been unreal. 24 is not that old really. Ben Hudson was around 24 when Adelaide drafted him and he's still playing good footy at 33.

Sorry, but i'll repeat my earlier post - that is a poor balance. It is a team that would be better off bottoming out.

So what sort of bottoming out are you proposing?

We've been playing the kids all this year, and most of them look alright.

With 5 draft pick in rounds 1-3, there will be a natuall cull of some older blokes. Most Bulldogs will agree that will be Cross, Hargraves and Gilbee. Perhaps Gia, depending on how much value he can prove to us this year.

Lake, Morris, Cooney and Murphy will all serve continued value to the team, espcially when most teams are adopting this 'best 24/25' attitude of resting players across the season. They'll also hold together the fabric of the club, which is something Melbourne have torn to shreds with their 'bottoming out'.

Yes, we need a key foward to develope, but we've been needing that for 15 odd years. As said in many other posts here, we're working on that, but it's impossible to pick the result. We could also probably use another developing tall back, but we appear to have some serviable ones coming through.

How do you fix that balance? High picks can help, but they can just as easily do nothing for you. Melbourne are the obvious example here, but there are countless examples of teams sinking heaps of picks into tall that go nowhere. North supporters seem the complain that this has been their problem for years. Also I'm sick of chasing tall forwards from other clubs, as it's basicially never worked. Barry was ok, but too little too late.

In answer to you, and OP, all I will say is there is a nice organic rebuilding happening at the Dogs which is ticking along just fine. BMac appears to be doing a great job, and whilst some of our kids are being pretty overhyped, I'm pleased at the progression. For me, our last St Kilda game represents genuine short term pain, and I've been happy to see rather little of that this year.

mate, easy to throw insults from a keyboard.

My team is collingwood. i follow Sydney's results because i live there and i have a soft spot for dogs because i think they are a battlers with decent fans. It is almost like i feel sorry for them.

Maybe i should not give a crap about them.

Also OP, as much as it's nice that you have a vauge interst in the Dogs, you can take you're pitty and shove it.

Go follow the Pie/Swans/Patriots/Springboks or whatever other weird-ass combo you can come up with, because you clearly know little about our team.
 
Supporter Base
Draft Picks
?????????
Profit/Premierships


Yes, I am serious.

You have not, in any of your posts detailed how Melbourne will capitalise on supporter base, merchandise sales or whatever, plus draft picks will help them be a better side.

I don't know how I can be any clearer in my posting, I'm really doing my best. I've answered all your questions, all you've done is make sweeping statements.

OK, let's assume Melbourne's supporter base versus WB supporter base isn't going to change in ratio, over say a period starting from fifteen years ago compared to the next five to ten years. What are they going to do as a club, on the back of that, to win games and produce a good football team.

All you've said is that because they have more supporters they'll be more successful. That's crap, because the relative positions of the two clubs haven't changed over a period of time, and performances in the last few years and right now don't reflect it.. You need to demonstrate how it will make a difference.

I'm not going to explain that again, seriously.
Think its pretty obvious really. Tigers have always had a big supporter base and we have had quite a few draft picks and that's translated into all those premierships the last 30 years. You must have blinked. :D
 
This thread is ridiculous, once again showing why opinions on Big footy don't mean much. Dogs get to within 1 point in the last qtr of last years premiers and every player on their list is rubbish. People who only watch a team once or twice a year really need to learn to not comment on the development of other teams it makes you look foolish.

There wouldn't be a better young in and under mid atm than Wallis, halfway through the game last night he was traveling at 100% efficiency and had 9 contested possession, 15 total and about 4-5 clearances in his 13th game of afl football. In any other team he would be getting rave reviews but at the dogs he is apparently not that much chop.

After 7 games this year he is

Ranked 1st among rising stars in Total Handballs
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Total Disposals
Ranked 10th among rising stars in Total Goals
Ranked 1st among rising stars in Total Tackles
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Total Supercoach Score
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Total Dreamteam Score
Ranked 1st among rising stars in Handballs Per Game
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Disposals Per Game
Ranked 1st among rising stars in Tackles Per Game
Ranked 1st among rising stars in Supercoach Score Per Game
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Dreamteam Score Per Game

People just don't watch the Dogs and really have no idea about football in general and a lot of them are posting in this thread.

The dogs have beaten average teams no doubt, but we have also been within a goal of the last two grand finalist in the last quarter.

We have more than half our backline missing, Morris, Williams, Markovic, Wood.

A forward line consisting mostly 30 or less game players Jones, Cordy, Roughead, Grant, Dickson, Skinner.

Yet we are beating most teams on contested possession, inside 50's and clearances. Yet we need a massive rebuild.

I think i speak for most dogs supporters when i say, get your hand of it, supporting a good team doesn't make your opinions of football correct.

Yes we lost last night, but we are heading in the right direction, anyone saying we are going backwards is an idiot who knows nothing about football.
 

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ok because you seem like a decent poster i will explain my theory.

Melbourne are screwed this year but they will get say 5 top 40 picks this year. Trade sylvia and other for whatever they can get. Bring in guys that want to play footy, like John mccarthy, but there are plenty of them out there.

dogs problem is they are too good a team to get those great draft picks. Can they trade higggins, gia, cooney as they won't be around for your next flag.

the reason melb are in a better place is because they have a bigger room for improvement in members and fans. If i am wrong, let me know.

You do realise Mackie and Selwwod are Geelong's highest picks currently at 7 don't you? Meanwhile Dees are struggling despite the raft of top 5 picks. This argument you present is not always true.
 
You do realise Mackie and Selwwod are Geelong's highest picks currently at 7 don't you? Meanwhile Dees are struggling despite the raft of top 5 picks. This argument you present is not always true.

He also fails to realise we have 5 top 50 picks coming this year too (which has been said numerous times yet he seems to overlook it while saying we dont answer his questions :rolleyes:) but our our 5 top 50 picks are coming into a side that has some senior leaders, has good structure and is building towards a plan, rather than 5 top 50 picks going into Melbournes team.
 
Have changed my opinion on them from bottom 4 to probably not going to entirely bottom out, will finish that 10th to 12th area for a couple of years, grab a couple of top 10 picks, hope for some improvement from Jones/Grant if not replace with Panos/Roughead, get lucky with injuries and they will be a top 8 team again.

We will be ahead of you come season end.
 
I might be completely delusional but I think we are tracking well and as for the rebuild we need backmen more than forwards.

Our forwards are young and developing and have all played less than 50 games (majority less than 30). They don't seem like elite talent but they look like they'll at least become solid AFL players. Not sure if people realise how hard it is to find ELITE KPF's. There are probably only 3-4 going around in the competition at the moment.
 
Are you serious?

My main point is Melbourne has a bigger supporter base than western bulldogs. I can't back that up with facts as i don't support either side but i believe it is common knowledge. Maybe you can disprove it.

what are your other questions?

Is this really common knowledge?

In recent years I would have thought the 9 Melbourne clubs would be loosely grouped as following:

Essendon
Collingwood

Carlton
Richmond
Hawthorn
St Kilda

Melbourne
Bulldogs
North Melbourne
 
That wasn't the thrust of my post, was just free association. What is the point of saying someone's an idiot because they question whether the hype over a 19 y/o is justified?

Let's have a look at tonight's team:

B: Robert Murphy, Brian Lake, Ryan Hargrave
Good to great careers, none of whom are likely to be around when the Bulldogs next contend.

HB: Daniel Cross, Mark Austin, Patrick Veszpremi
See above re Cross. I'll admit I don't know much about Auston. Vesz is a bit of a journeyman now, hasn't lived up to previously considered potential, probably limited upside.

C: Zephaniah Skinner, Matthew Boyd, Justin Sherman
Too raw to judge. Great player and captain but again, aging. Journeyman, limited upside.

HF: Shaun Higgins, Jordan Roughead, Daniel Giansiracusa
Likely never going to live up to his potential, now bordering on being a whipping boy. Could be very good, but very raw. Declining.

F: Luke Dahlhaus, Ayce Cordy, Mitchell Wallis
Could be very good, developing nicely. Could be very good, but very raw. See earlier post, but at least should be consistently good.

Foll: William Minson, Ryan Griffen, Liam Picken
Playing well this year, but not a number 1 ruckman in a finals side. Elite (but i have an issue i know i won't get much traction on here). Great team man but limited.

I/C: Adam Cooney, Thomas Liberatore, Daniel Pearce, Tory Dickson
Injuries have cruelled him. See earlier post. First game. Would rather they play a younger player but has had a few good moments.

Sorry, but i'll repeat my earlier post - that is a poor balance. It is a team that would be better off bottoming out.

Wow, a WC supporter telling us all this, didn't you guys win a wooden spoon a couple of years ago, and then made a prelim last year? Then you of all people should know how quickly things can be turned around. You watch our team once in a blue moon, we watch them every week, we can see the improvement and the potential.

In terms of Wallis, he lead the total disposal count for three quarters of the game last night, until Geelong's full forwards got on top - Johnson and Chapman. Not bad for a plodder.:rolleyes:
 
I don't think it's reasonable to look at Jones/Grant and such and say it's all good because they're youthful. They need to be able to play a bit. Jones doesn't look much chop to me. Grant has shown promise at various junctures.

Get the feeling their next star up forward hasn't been listed yet.

We have quite a few full forward options and may use on of our high draft picks to get another one. I like the fact that Macca has faith in them, and they will only get better.

If you take a look at the Adelaide full forwads, look how long they have been playing and they are only finding some consistency now, how many years since they debuted? Jones has only played 30 games - give it a rest.
 
Is this really common knowledge?

In recent years I would have thought the 9 Melbourne clubs would be loosely grouped as following:

Essendon
Collingwood

Carlton
Richmond
Hawthorn
St Kilda

Melbourne
Bulldogs
North Melbourne

St Kilda is in its own bracket IMO. Not going to be a top crowd puller, though never going to be in the bottom bracket. They've done really well supporter wise over recent years, and they played excellent footy. They were a bit stiff to miss out on a flag with some of the football they played. I didn't like their style, but it was effective. It will be interesting to see what happens to their club on that front if and when their performances dip over a period of time.

Richmond could be anything supporter wise, they're a monster club with a faithful supporter base that has been eating crap for a while now (that's being somewhat generous). If they had have put some decent years together since 1995 and made top four a few times since then they'd have a ridiculously large following.
 

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Wow, a WC supporter telling us all this, didn't you guys win a wooden spoon a couple of years ago, and then made a prelim last year? Then you of all people should know how quickly things can be turned around. You watch our team once in a blue moon, we watch them every week, we can see the improvement and the potential.

In terms of Wallis, he lead the total disposal count for three quarters of the game last night, until Geelong's full forwards got on top - Johnson and Chapman. Not bad for a plodder.:rolleyes:

I'll re-post the entire post that you seem to have had some difficulty reading:

Come on! Swallow & Bennell? Coniglio and any number of GWS players. The reality is Liberatore is a plodder and Wallis hasn't shown anywhere near as much as bulldogs give him credit for. Give them time but if that's what you believe you're almost certainly to end up disappointed.

I thought we were boned for years and we turned it around quickly, so never say never, but the balance is the bulldogs is all wrong for a rebuild imo.
 
Come on! Swallow & Bennell? Coniglio and any number of GWS players. The reality is Liberatore is a plodder and Wallis hasn't shown anywhere near as much as bulldogs give him credit for. Give them time but if that's what you believe you're almost certainly to end up disappointed.
No offence Superfist, but your credibility is down the gurglar if you think Libba is just a plodder. He is a mile ahead of the likes of Pendlebury, Priddis and Watson at the same age - that's certainly not to say he will end up better than any of them, but 2nd year players should not be influencing the clearances and contested possessions anywhere near as much as Libba is currently doing. He is already elite in this area and can only get better for longer as his tank and core strength continue to build over time.

Inside mids don't get the accolades that flashier players tend to get, but a high quality extractor is worth their weight in gold.
 
The key defensive posts are a worry too. Markovic is just okay, while guns in Morris and Lake are near the end.

Macca is a phenomenal coach, but the tools at his disposal are lacking. Badly need a good key forward in this year's draft, as well as a key defender.
 
I'll re-post the entire post that you seem to have had some difficulty reading:

Come on! Swallow & Bennell? Coniglio and any number of GWS players. The reality is Liberatore is a plodder and Wallis hasn't shown anywhere near as much as bulldogs give him credit for. Give them time but if that's what you believe you're almost certainly to end up disappointed.

I thought we were boned for years and we turned it around quickly, so never say never, but the balance is the bulldogs is all wrong for a rebuild imo.

Right, Wallis is playing nearly every game this year, can the same be said for the inconsistent Gold Coast and GWS players? I didn't even notice Bennell until a few weeks ago? You obviously didn't bother to look at the stats or the effectiveness of the possessions, and yes Scott West was a plodder in the same mould as Libba, and managed to pull more Brownlow votes during his career than any other player.
 
We did just get Talia in the last draft, already showing his ability in the VFL he is great defensively a little iffy by foot but is improving as was seen last week. Also Austin is still young and is fitting in nicely in our defence, held pods well on Friday. We could probably use one more though but i think we are trying fletcher roberts down there who has had some good games.
 
The key defensive posts are a worry too. Markovic is just okay, while guns in Morris and Lake are near the end.

Macca is a phenomenal coach, but the tools at his disposal are lacking. Badly need a good key forward in this year's draft, as well as a key defender.

Yep, we know this, but show me a team that does't have holes in it's side?
 
I could easily name 5 or 6 that don't have major structural problems.

Really who? Collingwood are struggling in their ruck area, with Jolly to old and Wood not really up to it.

Essendon don't have a power full forward, they rely on very quick and agile small forwards and a resting ruck, but when the finals pressure is on, that gameplan won't stack up.

Carlton the same as Essendon dont have a power full forward, relying on their smalls.

Geelong, ruck department also suspect, although West will be a handy player.

The list goes on..
 
I really think the bulldogs will be back up in the 8 sooner than what most people think.

They have some good players/ prospects in all areas.

Backmen- Wood, Williams, Talia, Howard and Austin could turn out to be a very good pick up. If Lake gets moved to the fletcher/Scarlett third tall role I could see him playing till he is 32-33.

Midfield- Libba, Wallis, Picken, Smith, Dalhaus, Vezpremi and Griffin has plenty of footy left in him.

Ruck is a real strength. Minson, Cordy, Roughead and Campbell is a good prospect as well.

Forward line is promising. Higgins, Jones, Cooney, Grant, Sherman and their resting ruck will provide a good target as well.

I know some of those guys are 50-50 whether they will make it or not but with a bit of luck they could be good side with in 2-4 years.
 
I really think the bulldogs will be back up in the 8 sooner than what most people think.

They have some good players/ prospects in all areas.

Backmen- Wood, Williams, Talia, Howard and Austin could turn out to be a very good pick up. If Lake gets moved to the fletcher/Scarlett third tall role I could see him playing till he is 32-33.

Midfield- Libba, Wallis, Picken, Smith, Dalhaus, Vezpremi and Griffin has plenty of footy left in him.

Ruck is a real strength. Minson, Cordy, Roughead and Campbell is a good prospect as well.

Forward line is promising. Higgins, Jones, Cooney, Grant, Sherman and their resting ruck will provide a good target as well.

I know some of those guys are 50-50 whether they will make it or not but with a bit of luck they could be good side with in 2-4 years.

Thanks Paddy, nice to hear from an opposition member who takes the time to know who we have on our list. I agree with you we have coverage in every area, but like all clubs some players will make it and some won't.

I like the fact that Macca is giving all the players a chance to prove themselves this year, especially as we will drink deep from this year's draft with two extra picks. Macca has also been a revelation for some players including Cross and Addison who are playing much more effective roles.
 
Thanks Paddy, nice to hear from an opposition member who takes the time to know who we have on our list. I agree with you we have coverage in every area, but like all clubs some players will make it and some won't.

I like the fact that Macca is giving all the players a chance to prove themselves this year, especially as we will drink deep from this year's draft with two extra picks. Macca has also been a revelation for some players including Cross and Addison who are playing much more effective roles.

Yeah I forgot about Addison. I really rate Macca as a coach.
 

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