Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[IlovethePies]

How?

Already answered this repeatedly.

 

[IlovethePies]

I understand you probably can't go off script but the absolute lie that "us backed fascist forces" overthrew Yanukovych needs to stop being pedalled by yourself.

The facts are the Rada did not change apart from a temporary leader bring voted in once Yanukovych, a Russian fascist mafia thug, fled the country in disgrace.

Elections were held in Jun 2014.

Anyone saying there was coup is a lying knowingly and amplifying Russian propaganda.

The people of Ukraine dud not want to be subjugated by Russian fascists any longer, they clearly and overwhelmingly have shown they future is in Europe as a democratic nation. Something Russia and it's fascist government simply struggle to accept.

This will be the last time you spout this absolute lie on this platform.

So you have the right to decide who writes what on this platform?

The fact that you think to need to resort to censorship reveals your lack of confidence.

If you were so sure that your version of events is true, why would an alternative analysis make you so desperate as to even try to threaten me with an attack on freedom of speech?

Your response is like that because the cause you defend is anti-democratic as well.

 

[Jello_B]

How can anyone (other than those on the inside of US government) know the US involvement in the 2014 revolution / coup.
The truth probably lies in the middle, the general populations of western Ukraine probably preferred NATO / West. And the east the opposite.
The US was happy to support 2014 change, but it wasn’t them alone that caused it.

 

[Zidane98]

So you have the right to decide who writes what on this platform?

The fact that you think to need to resort to censorship reveals your lack of confidence.

If you were so sure that your version of events is true, why would an alternative analysis make you so desperate as to even try to threaten me with an attack on freedom of speech?

Your response is like that because the cause you defend is anti-democratic as well.

You're entitled to your own opinion.


You are not entitled to your own facts.


If you posted something along the lines of Ukraine should be on friendly terms with Russia - than that would be reasonable as after all they are neighbors with Russia.


You won't garner any sympathy by amplifying disproven pro Russian lies about Ukraine and its government. Ukranians are in charge of their destiny. Not Russia, not the west.

It is funny to see a pro Russian poster complaining about freedom of speech. I can only presume you aren't a journalist in Russia who would dare to report the actual truth about Russia's horrific invasion of Ukraine as if you were there's a high likelihood you wouldn't be posting in this very forum.

 

[Fire]

It is funny to see a pro Russian poster complaining about freedom of speech. I can only presume you aren't a journalist in Russia who would dare to report the actual truth about Russia's horrific invasion of Ukraine as if you were there's a high likelihood you wouldn't be posting in this very forum.

Every fascist ever has pearl clutched about having free speech they would giddily crush once they can.

 

[Chief]

Already answered this repeatedly.

You haven't really explained how it is some red line when Russia already borders NATO countries.

It doesn't make sense.

 

[PeterSalt]

How can anyone (other than those on the inside of US government) know the US involvement in the 2014 revolution / coup.
The truth probably lies in the middle, the general populations of western Ukraine probably preferred NATO / West. And the east the opposite.
The US was happy to support 2014 change, but it wasn’t them alone that caused it.

In short, the Maidan started in late 2013 as a result of Viktor Yanukovych's decision to ignore his election promise of forming closer economic ties with the EU with a view to to becoming a member, and instead turn back towards closer ties to russia. He basically back flipped on a trade deal with the EU to sign a deal with russia.

NATO or even joining NATO wasn't on anyone's agenda in Ukraine at the time.

It wasn't a coup. The protests were largely formed by students.

Yanukovych fled to russia for asylum, after he ordered to police to fire on protesters killing around 100 people. He was voted out of his position of president by the Ukrainian parliament the day after he fled the country.

There is little to no evidence anywhere that the US/ CIA had anything to do Maidan. It's a fabulous russian talking point though.

 

[IlovethePies]

Every fascist ever has pearl clutched about having free speech they would giddily crush once they can.

Not sure that you know what the word "fascist" means. You're throwing it around in a very haphazard manner. If you're interested, I can give you a reference which defines fascism perfectly.

If you are not interested, that is fine. But you should think twice about using a word when you don't understand its meaning.

 

[IlovethePies]

You're entitled to your own opinion.


You are not entitled to your own facts.


If you posted something along the lines of Ukraine should be on friendly terms with Russia - than that would be reasonable as after all they are neighbors with Russia.


You won't garner any sympathy by amplifying disproven pro Russian lies about Ukraine and its government. Ukranians are in charge of their destiny. Not Russia, not the west.

It is funny to see a pro Russian poster complaining about freedom of speech. I can only presume you aren't a journalist in Russia who would dare to report the actual truth about Russia's horrific invasion of Ukraine as if you were there's a high likelihood you wouldn't be posting in this very forum.

Zidane, I am not about "garnering sympathy"... I am about presenting an analysis which opposes the msm, and opposes capitalism.

It is a mark of your own limitations that you view any poster who disagrees with you as 'pro-Putin'.

The world does not just consist of capitalist governments. There is a mighty international force called the world proletariat, which you totally ignore.

The interests of the world's working population are utterly antithetical to every capitalist government, whether it be Zelensky's, or Putin's, or Biden's, or Starmer's, or Macron's, or Albanese's....

This is the factor that doesn't enter into your framework, rendering your framework less than useless.

 

[IlovethePies]

You haven't really explained how it is some red line when Russia already borders NATO countries.

It doesn't make sense.

It does, when you read my post fully.
Ukraine borders the Black Sea, and has several ports along there.
When the Maidan coup took place in 2014, the Putin regime was threatened with the prospect of Crimea being integrated into NATO.
This would have meant total domination by NATO of the Black Sea.
This would have eviscerated Russia's geopolitical security.
With the Baltic Sea already being bordered by NATO members, allowing Crimea and the Ukraine to be fully integrated nto NATO would have cut off Russian access to critical maritime routes.
The population in Crimea is predominantly Russian speaking, and they were terrified by the prospect of living under the extreme right wing nationalist Russophobes installed in government after the Maidan coup.

Their fear was amply justified,as exemplified in early May of 2014, Ukrainian Right Sector fascists set fire to Odessa’s Trade Unions House, which had been sheltering opponents of the US- and European-backed regime in Ukraine. 38 anti-government activists were killed.

Washington responsible for fascist massacre in Odessa

The killings expose the brutal character of the right-wing government installed in Kiev.

www.wsws.org

 

[IlovethePies]

In short, the Maidan started in late 2013 as a result of Viktor Yanukovych's decision to ignore his election promise of forming closer economic ties with the EU with a view to to becoming a member, and instead turn back towards closer ties to russia. He basically back flipped on a trade deal with the EU to sign a deal with russia.

NATO or even joining NATO wasn't on anyone's agenda in Ukraine at the time.

It wasn't a coup. The protests were largely formed by students.

Yanukovych fled to russia for asylum, after he ordered to police to fire on protesters killing around 100 people. He was voted out of his position of president by the Ukrainian parliament the day after he fled the country.

There is little to no evidence anywhere that the US/ CIA had anything to do Maidan. It's a fabulous russian talking point though.

You are wrong on almost every point, sad to say. Here is what happened:

The crisis was sparked in November of 2013 by President Viktor Yanukovych’s refusal to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union. This was unacceptable for Washington and Berlin. As Theo Sommer put it in Die Zeit, the issue at stake was “Where should the EU's eastern boundary, and the western boundary of the Russian sphere of influence, be situated?”

The US and Germany systematically supported the pro-EU opposition, which organized the demonstrations against Yanukovych. In addition to Yulia Tymoshenko's Fatherland and Vitali Klitschko's UDAR—two right-wing parties with close ties to the German CDU—the opposition also included the fascist Svoboda party of Oleh Tyahnybok.

The fact that Svoboda employs neo-fascist symbols, agitates against foreigners, Jews, Hungarians and Poles, maintains close relations with the French National Front (now RN) and is compared to the ultra-right Greek Golden Dawn and Hungarian Jobbik by the World Jewish Congress, has not prevented the foreign ministers of the United States and Germany from publicly embracing Tyahnybok.

The initial opposition demonstrations, however, failed to force Yanukovych to resign. At this point, paramilitary fascist militias were mobilized to intensify the conflict and propel the country to the brink of civil war. The leading role was played by the so-called Right Sector, whose masked militants, equipped with helmets, batons, fire bombs and firearms soon dominated the center of Kiev, carrying out fierce attacks on the security forces. News reports estimate their number in Kiev alone to be between 2,000 and 3,000.

The conservative Die Welt paper termed the Right Sector an “informal association of right-wing and neo-fascist splinter groups”. Time magazine, which interviewed its leader Dmitry Yarosh, writes that their “ideology borders on fascism and it enjoys support only from Ukraine's most hard-line nationalists”. Many of its members are former soldiers or fought in the conflict on the side of Azerbaijan, and in Chechnya and South Ossetia against Russia.

It was these paramilitary fascist militias which ensured that the situation escalated last Thursday. While they fought bloody battles with the security forces, resulting in dozens of casualties on both sides, the German, Polish and French foreign ministers flew into Kiev and forced Yanukovych to accept a “compromise” following hours of negotiations. It was the beginning of the end for the president.

When the Right Sector spoke out against the agreement and threatened to resume hostilities, the military declared its neutrality, and many deputies from Yanukovych's Party of the Regions changed sides. This sealed his fate.

 

[PeterSalt]

You are wrong on almost every point, sad to say. Here is what happened:

The crisis was sparked in November of 2013 by President Viktor Yanukovych’s refusal to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union. This was unacceptable for Washington and Berlin. As Theo Sommer put it in Die Zeit, the issue at stake was “Where should the EU's eastern boundary, and the western boundary of the Russian sphere of influence, be situated?”

The US and Germany systematically supported the pro-EU opposition, which organized the demonstrations against Yanukovych. In addition to Yulia Tymoshenko's Fatherland and Vitali Klitschko's UDAR—two right-wing parties with close ties to the German CDU—the opposition also included the fascist Svoboda party of Oleh Tyahnybok.

The fact that Svoboda employs neo-fascist symbols, agitates against foreigners, Jews, Hungarians and Poles, maintains close relations with the French National Front and is compared to the ultra-right Greek Golden Dawn and Hungarian Jobbik by the World Jewish Congress, has not prevented the foreign ministers of the United States and Germany from publicly embracing Tyahnybok.

The initial opposition demonstrations, however, failed to force Yanukovych to resign. At this point, paramilitary fascist militias were mobilized to intensify the conflict and propel the country to the brink of civil war. The leading role was played by the so-called Right Sector, whose masked militants, equipped with helmets, batons, fire bombs and firearms soon dominated the center of Kiev, carrying out fierce attacks on the security forces. News reports estimate their number in Kiev alone to be between 2,000 and 3,000.

The conservative Die Welt paper termed the Right Sector an “informal association of right-wing and neo-fascist splinter groups”. Time magazine, which interviewed its leader Dmitry Yarosh, writes that their “ideology borders on fascism and it enjoys support only from Ukraine's most hard-line nationalists”. Many of its members are former soldiers or fought in the conflict on the side of Azerbaijan, and in Chechnya and South Ossetia against Russia.

It was these paramilitary fascist militias which ensured that the situation escalated last Thursday. While they fought bloody battles with the security forces, resulting in dozens of casualties on both sides, the German, Polish and French foreign ministers flew into Kiev and forced Yanukovych to accept a “compromise” following hours of negotiations. It was the beginning of the end for the president.

When the Right Sector spoke out against the agreement and threatened to resume hostilities, the military declared its neutrality, and many deputies from Yanukovych's Party of the Regions changed sides. This sealed his fate.

Where was that word salad published?

 

[IlovethePies]

...in a vegetarian/vegan recipe book?

What do you actually think is untrue in the account above?

If you say "all of it", that means you actually have no clue what you disagree with.

-recommend for you salad with fresh spinach leaves, red pepper, onion and avocado, along with olive oil and lemon/balsamic vinegar. Said to improve cognitive capacity.

 

[IlovethePies]

The basic premise seems to be that NATO is bad. Zelenskyy is a NATO puppet. Putin is bad but he's reacting to NATO who are bad.

Well, this is a start. However, it is not a question of "good" and "evil" - it is a question of what classes are being represented by various institutions and political tendencies.

NATO represents the interests of US/European imperialism, which is hell bent on dismembering Russia and plundering its natural wealth. This however is not a "moral" question. It is how capitalism operates.

Today with the gigantic load of speculative debt in the stockmarket and the explosion of the US deficit, the US is economically threatened from all sides. It sees its only way out as conquering new resources, new markets, new sources of cheap labour.

Zelensky, and his entire government, is a puppet of the massive financial resources of corporate US, along with the gigantic array of hedge funds and banks that in turn dominate the corporations

Zelensky represents a layer of the Ukrainian financial oligarchy, totally insignificant in comparison with that of the US, which has hitched its future to an alliance with US imperialism.

Putin represents a layer of the Russian financial oligarchy,-again insignificant in compariason with the economic resources of US finance capital - who wish to preserve their assets and wealth against the US/European predator capitalists. He pathetically wants to make a deal with them, so that they agree to let him, and his fellow capitalists, live in relative peace, while continuing to amass their wealth through exploitation of the working class and ownership rights on Russia's mineral wealth.

But US imperialism is facing bankruptcy, and will not accept a deal with Putin. Their aim is to get rid of Putin (probably execute him like they did to Sadam Hussein and Gaddafi), and set up a totally pliant government which will hand over all the loot to them.

However the massive majority of the population, the working class of Russia, will be impoverished and decimated whether Putin remains in command or a NATO stooge.

The interests of the working class are not yet politically represented. When they are, the situation will be transformed.

 

[wannabejack]

 

[IlovethePies]

View attachment 2107020

I would also not want to be murdered by the US for no reason.

During his presidency, Obama held a weekly get together known as "Terror Tuesday":


An extraordinary article appeared in the New York Times on May 29, which details how President Obama personally approves extrajudicial assassinations, including of US citizens, by CIA and US military drone aircraft in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and other countries.

Like a scene out of the Godfather, the president and his national security advisors gather in the White House situation room for weekly “Terror Tuesday” meetings where they review a “kill list” of potential targets. According to the Times, Obama “signs off on every strike in Yemen and Somalia and also on the more complex and risky strikes in Pakistan—about a third of the total.”

Since the publication of the article, the president has added at least 30 more notches to his belt—30 more people to the list of those whose killing he has approved. In the latest incident, a drone fired a missile in Pakistan, killing at least 12, including mourners and rescuers who had rushed to the scene of a first missile strike that killed three. This was the eighth US drone attack over the past two weeks, despite nominal demands from Pakistan that they be stopped.

Obama’s “kill list” and the decay of democracy in America

The president and his national security advisors gather in the White House situation room for “Terror Tuesday” meetings where they review a list of potential targets.

www.wsws.org

 

[wannabejack]

I would also not want to be murdered by the US for no reason.

During his presidency, Obama held a weekly get together known as "Terror Tuesday":


An extraordinary article appeared in the New York Times on May 29, which details how President Obama personally approves extrajudicial assassinations, including of US citizens, by CIA and US military drone aircraft in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and other countries.

Like a scene out of the Godfather, the president and his national security advisors gather in the White House situation room for weekly “Terror Tuesday” meetings where they review a “kill list” of potential targets. According to the Times, Obama “signs off on every strike in Yemen and Somalia and also on the more complex and risky strikes in Pakistan—about a third of the total.”

Since the publication of the article, the president has added at least 30 more notches to his belt—30 more people to the list of those whose killing he has approved. In the latest incident, a drone fired a missile in Pakistan, killing at least 12, including mourners and rescuers who had rushed to the scene of a first missile strike that killed three. This was the eighth US drone attack over the past two weeks, despite nominal demands from Pakistan that they be stopped.

Obama’s “kill list” and the decay of democracy in America

The president and his national security advisors gather in the White House situation room for “Terror Tuesday” meetings where they review a list of potential targets.

www.wsws.org

Still doesn’t justify russians killing Ukrainians.
You obviously don’t understand the meaning of the pic.

 

[IlovethePies]

Still doesn’t justify russians killing Ukrainians.
You obviously don’t understand the meaning of the pic.

nothing justifies Russians killing Ukrainians, nor Ukrainians killing Russians.

The Russian and Ukrainian armies need to refuse to fire on each other, unite, and focus their efforts on the real enemy: the Putin government in Russia, and the Zelensky government in Ukraine.

 

[wannabejack]

nothing justifies Russians killing Ukrainians, nor Ukrainians killing Russians.

The Russian and Ukrainian armies need to refuse to fire on each other, unite, and focus their efforts on the real enemy: the Putin government in Russia, and the Zelensky government in Ukraine.

The difference is that the Ukrainians have no choice. They are defending themselves.
It's the russian army that needs to refuse to fire and leave Ukraine. This will automatically stop Ukrainian soldiers firing.

 

[IlovethePies]

The difference is that the Ukrainians have no choice. They are defending themselves.
It's the russian army that needs to refuse to fire and leave Ukraine. This will automatically stop Ukrainian soldiers firing.

How do you know?
Do you honestly believe that if Russia retreated back to prewar borders, Zelensky would not send the Ukrainian military into Russia?
He already has done so. Ukrainian troops are already on Russian territory.
It is not a question of what Zelensky or Putin decide.
They are both enemies of the working population.
It is a question of what the working population, both Russian and Ukrainian decide.
They need a political party which unites them across the border.
Russian workers and Ukrainian workers have the same class interests.
Zelensky and Putin are using them as cannon fodder to prosecute the interests of Ukrainain and Russian capitalists.

 

[IlovethePies]

Stop substituting "coup" for "revolution". P

Will never stop describing the events in Maidan as a fascist coup. Because that it what it was.

 

[IlovethePies]

How can anyone (other than those on the inside of US government) know the US involvement in the 2014 revolution / coup.
The truth probably lies in the middle, the general populations of western Ukraine probably preferred NATO / West. And the east the opposite.
The US was happy to support 2014 change, but it wasn’t them alone that caused it.

In order to liquidate the USSR, the Stalinist bureaucracy encouraged all manner of right wing nationalist political tendencies in order to sow division among the workers.

In Ukraine, the nationalists undoubtedly gained influence - especially in the middle class - through their denunciation of the Soviet regime, and their claims that a new Ukrainian capitalist state would bring prosperity, democracy and peace.

There is absolutely no doubt that many e in Western Ukraine in particular were deceived by this propaganda....that somehow if Ukraine turned to the EU and NATO, they would be freed from the tyranny of the Stalinist dictatorship.

(In fact, the tyranny of Stalinism has been replaced by the tyranny of Zelensky's stooge regime. There is no democracy in Ukraine...and the working class has been pauperised)

The US/European governments, exploited these political tendencies to foment so called "democratic revolution -so called "Orange Revolutions" - which aimed to install pro-US regimes in the former republics of the USSR.

There was also massive opposition to the Maidan coup in Ukraine, in eastern and southeastern Ukraine, where the population was predominantly ethnically Russian, and who were opposed to the Russophobic measures that were rapidly implemented by the pro-US/NATO govt installed after Maidan.

It soon exploded into civil war in the Donbass.

 

[Jello_B]

In short, the Maidan started in late 2013 as a result of Viktor Yanukovych's decision to ignore his election promise of forming closer economic ties with the EU with a view to to becoming a member, and instead turn back towards closer ties to russia. He basically back flipped on a trade deal with the EU to sign a deal with russia.

NATO or even joining NATO wasn't on anyone's agenda in Ukraine at the time.

It wasn't a coup. The protests were largely formed by students.

Yanukovych fled to russia for asylum, after he ordered to police to fire on protesters killing around 100 people. He was voted out of his position of president by the Ukrainian parliament the day after he fled the country.

There is little to no evidence anywhere that the US/ CIA had anything to do Maidan. It's a fabulous russian talking point though.

I’ve always found it strange that the US suddenly becomes this beacon of innocence when it comes to Ukraine. Bizarre. Anyways, hope there is some sort of peace treaty soon so innocent people that have nothing to do with this on both sides can stop dying.

 

[IlovethePies]

I’ve always found it strange that the US suddenly becomes this beacon of innocence when it comes to Ukraine. Bizarre. Anyways, hope there is some sort of peace treaty soon so innocent people that have nothing to do with this on both sides can stop dying.

Exactly. And especially now, why would any sane person believe that the motives of the US are benign in Ukraine, while they keep funding and arming the military machine in Israel currently exterminating the Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank?

 

[Zidane98]

Will never stop describing the events in Maidan as a fascist coup. Because that it what it was.

It's not a coup, this is a lie and you know it.

The majority of Ukrainians overwhelmingly reject Russian fascism / autocracy.