Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[IlovethePies]

It's not a coup, this is a lie and you know it.

The majority of Ukrainians overwhelmingly reject Russian fascism / autocracy.

It was most certainly a coup, it is not a lie, and I know it.

The 2014 coup in Ukraine

www.wsws.org

 

[Zidane98]

It was most certainly a coup, it is not a lie, and I know it.

The 2014 coup in Ukraine

www.wsws.org

You are not entitled to post lies on here.

The Rada did not change after Maidan. Yanukovych abandoned his position, fled to Russia.

The Rada voted in a temporary leader until elections could be run which were held in June 2014. This is all factual information.

There absolutely was no coup. You are a liar and justifying Putin's attempts to impose unwanted Russian fascism on Ukrainians who the majority had clearly voted to move on from Russia.

I will keep calling out your lies until you stop posting them.

 

[IlovethePies]

You are not entitled to post lies on here.

The Rada did not change after Maidan. Yanukovych abandoned his position, fled to Russia.

The Rada voted in a temporary leader until elections could be run which were held in June 2014. This is all factual information.

There absolutely was no coup. You are a liar and justifying Putin's attempts to impose unwanted Russian fascism on Ukrainians who the majority had clearly voted to move on from Russia.

I will keep calling out your lies until you stop posting them.

So you are the one who decides what are lies and what are not?

You claim one thing, I reject your claim, and give evidence as to why I do so. You just make wild and angry statements in response.
You can't explain why there were Right Sector fascists in Maidan, so you just deny they existed.


Keep calling out as much as you like.

Won't stop me from posting the truth.

 

[rank and file]

William Blum was a good author,him and John Pilger my faves.
Straight out non-fiction.

Circa 2014

 

[PeterSalt]

William Blum was a good author,him and John Pilger my faves.
Straight out non-fiction.
View attachment 2107187
Circa 2014

John Pilger was a massive campaigner

 

[Mobbs]

Will never stop describing the events in Maidan as a fascist coup. Because that it what it was.

Well we know that it wasn't, as clearly evidenced over a couple of years here, you will just need to keep on going appearing like a laughing stock to some, and like a ghoul to me. Barreling in using the tragedy and atrocity of innocent loss of life, to platform your own otherwise fine wish for systemic change, is its own form of abhorrent.

Just plucking two of your loony claims out, you have somehow inserted Svoboda into the mix when this party was irrelevant, sitting on its arse trying to cash in and gaining a percent or two, less than similar extremist parties win in Australia or Britain. Svoboda was none of the three parties involved in the change in 2014, its highest complicity was probably an attempt to carpet bag a seat or two, and potentially sending a couple of Peter Hores in.

Also you referenced Yanukovich as refusing to sign the Association Agreement with the EU. Might look fine on the surface, but for some reason you choose to omit, that Yanukovich originally intended to sign this agreement, but then about-faced. Why did he do that? Why do you ignore the public response to his sudden choice to renege and make your statement as though he'd always had the same intent.

Oh lets keep going: Then you claimed that those apparently wishing to overthrow Yanukovich (!) created violent anarchy - a claim I've heard before but again without any evidence - but don't mention how Yanukovich authorised shooting on the protestors, resulting in deaths of over 100 people (mostly protestors, some police as well). This is the nebesna sotnia, you can read about it anywhere (well maybe anywhere except for on a ratbag journal).

And you keep referencing NATO when 1) NATO was a side-thought for Ukraine prior the RF invasion including unenthusiastic interest from the people, 2) whenever Ukraine approached NATO they were told either "no" or "maybe later" and 3) Ukraine pursued membership or at least agreements of the EU more readily, with more public support, which is not NATO. Then the RF started sending its tendrils out and NATO became more on Ukrainian's minds.

There's a bunch of other bullshit statements gathered from fringe opinion sources. You repeat often that some areas of Ukraine are Russian-speaking - and? Utterly irrelevant, Russia has been in and out of Ukraine over a couple of centuries and it likes to spread its mir. Heaps of people speak Russian there, and Ukrainian, and Surzhik. It's just random information. There are also many Russians in Kursk and Belgorod oblasti who speak Ukrainian. Like ... so?

Also you use the term russophobe a lot, heh. This is like if I was a rapist-phobe or a genocidal-terrorist-outfit-phobe. So be it. Russia has written its own ticket to pariah-hood. The RF had already sometimes insidiously and oft-times genocidally attacked myriad adjacent peoples and insert its own power structures, and the USA actually wet lettuced them all the way. Belarus is a puppet state of the RF, Georgia is now transitioning the same way.

But Ukraine wouldn't hack it, and Ivan is pissed!

Here's a thought - if the folks of occupied Donbas are so pro-Russian, why was the late 2022 "referendum" held there at gunpoint? Why did they have to bash doors down and demand the people participate, under threat from armed forces. Why wasn't it just a referendum people went to?

Here is your militant coup in action - look at all those balaclava-clad insurgents violencing their way around Kyiv and charging at the government.
View attachment maidan_revolution_footage.mp4
(clip is from a [piece dismantling Robert Kennedy Jr's pro-Russia statements], that's who the youtuber is responding to)

 

[Jamolad]

Where was that word salad published?

It is literally a cut-and-paste from World Socialist Web Site:

Coup in Ukraine: A warning to the international working class

What has seemed unthinkable since 1945 has come to pass: while the US and Germany ruthlessly destabilized Ukraine, fascists have become the decisive force on the ground.

www.wsws.org

 

[IlovethePies]

Explaining what happened at Maidan does not imply support for Yanukovic.
He was a tyrant and yes he murdered protestors.

It was possible to successfully organise such a putsch, utilising a few thousand fascist thugs and an “opposition” united by little more than a common desire for money and power, because Yanukovych’s regime proved corrupt and devoid of any popular support. It represented no one save that wing of the oligarchy that considered an alliance with Russia to be more conducive to its own self-enrichment than membership in the EU.

As evidence of the extreme right wing, fascistic government installed after Yanukovic fled, it almost immediately voted Ukrainian to be the only official language, despite 20% of the population speaking Russian.

The openly anti=Semitic nature of the political forces in the new government caused the
Ukrainian Chabad Rabbi Moshe Reuven Azman to call on Kiev’s Jews to leave the city and even the country if possible. He cited “constant warnings concerning intentions to attack Jewish institutions.”

 

[Zidane98]

Explaining what happened at Maidan does not imply support for Yanukovic.
He was a tyrant and yes he murdered protestors.

It was possible to successfully organise such a putsch, utilising a few thousand fascist thugs and an “opposition” united by little more than a common desire for money and power, because Yanukovych’s regime proved corrupt and devoid of any popular support. It represented no one save that wing of the oligarchy that considered an alliance with Russia to be more conducive to its own self-enrichment than membership in the EU.

As evidence of the extreme right wing, fascistic government installed after Yanukovic fled, it almost immediately voted Ukrainian to be the only official language, despite 20% of the population speaking Russian.

The openly anti=Semitic nature of the political forces in the new government caused the
Ukrainian Chabad Rabbi Moshe Reuven Azman to call on Kiev’s Jews to leave the city and even the country if possible. He cited “constant warnings concerning intentions to attack Jewish institutions.”

You are such a BS artist.

Ukraine Jews refute Russia's 'neo-Nazi' claims

Russia may accuse the protesters who toppled Ukraine's pro-Moscow government of being "fascists" and "neo-Nazis" but the country's Jews insist they have seen no trace of anti-Semitism. Moscow was quick to slam the Maidan protesters as extremists bent on waging war against ethnic Russians, and...

sg.news.yahoo.com

Among Ukraine’s Jews, the Bigger Worry Is Putin, Not Pogroms (Published 2014)

Despite assertions by Russia, many Ukrainian Jews say there has not been a resurgence of anti-Semitism since the revolution in February.

www.nytimes.com

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukrainian-jews-push-back-against-putins-neo-nazi-claim-as-they-gear-up-for-battle/

Ukrainian Jewish leaders demolish Putin’s lies about Zelensky and 'denazification'

Vladimir Putin’s new attempt to call Ukraine’s President a “disgrace to the Jewish people” has been dismissed, like all his efforts since 2014 to justify Russia's aggression against Ukraine

khpg.org

Furthermore by posting outright lies you are a supporter of Putin trying to impose fascism on Ukraine.

We get it, you are only able to paste replies approved over at the internet research agency.

 

[wannabejack]

...
Do you honestly believe that if Russia retreated back to prewar borders, Zelensky would not send the Ukrainian military into Russia?
...

Surely you can’t believe this.
No country would supply weapons to Ukraine if they sent troops into russia after russia withdrew to pre-invasion borders.

 

[Fire]

Surely you can’t believe this.
No country would supply weapons to Ukraine if they sent troops into russia after russia withdrew to pre-invasion borders.

I can only assume they mean Crimea?

But even in that case, obviously they wouldn't, what a moron.

 

[Zidane98]

The openly anti=Semitic nature of the political forces in the new government caused the
Ukrainian Chabad Rabbi Moshe Reuven Azman to call on Kiev’s Jews to leave the city and even the country if possible. He cited “constant warnings concerning intentions to attack Jewish institutions.”

Ukraine's Chief Rabbi in March 2014 said this:

“The situation in the [Jewish] community is very tense,” Asman told Israel Hayom. “We are on the brink of a war with Russia"

Chief Rabbi was concerned about invading Russians. He's always supported Ukrainian government and has actively worked against invading Russians.




From Ukranian Chief Raabi Yaakov

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ukraines-chief-rabbi-the-world-didnt-stop-hitler-it-must-stop-putin/

As things with Russia every accusation is a confession.


Russia & Putin are the Nazis in Ukraine and you directly support them with your liess. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Zidane98]

 

[Zidane98]

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The soviets killed 9-11 million of their military while fighting just the Germans.
The Germans lost 5.5 million military while fighting multiple fronts.
UK only lost 416 thousand.

Stalin didn't give a crap.

 

[Aussie in exile]

nothing justifies Russians killing Ukrainians, nor Ukrainians killing Russians.

The Russian and Ukrainian armies need to refuse to fire on each other, unite, and focus their efforts on the real enemy: the Putin government in Russia, and the Zelensky government in Ukraine.

You seem to keep forgetting that Russia invaded Ukraine illegally

 

[Zidane98]

Putin tackling the real problems



Surely he is better off spending money on indoor toilets for the entire Russian population than his cruise missile attacks on Ukraine.

 

[IlovethePies]

The views of this young Ukrainian about the nature of the war against Russia and the nature of Ukrainian society differ fundamentally from those of Zidane, and others like him, who continually quote pro-Western imperialist organisations as incontrovertible "proof"

Report from a young Ukrainian in Germany: “The working class in Ukraine does not want a war against Russia at all”

Semyon, who fled from Ukraine and is now working and studying in Germany, fears the latest decisions by the German authorities mean he could be sent back to be used as cannon fodder.

www.wsws.org

 

[IlovethePies]

...and the article below summarising the 2014 crisis. Any person who reads it with an open mind will observe:
a) the article condemns the Putin regime just as much as the Ukrainian nationalist right and fascist paramilitary forces that spearheaded the Maidan putsch.

Here is a quote:" Putin represents oligarchs who enriched themselves by plundering state industry following the dissolution of the USSR. His regime is incapable of making any appeal to the Ukrainian working class or to progressive sentiment within the country. Instead, he seeks to whip up chauvinism both in Russia and eastern Ukraine, adding to the dangers of civil and sectarian warfare stoked up by the Ukrainian fascists and their American and German backers."


b)The article summarises long established evidence that the US and German governments/intelligence agencies were highly involved in funding and promoting fascist forces in Ukraine. The US had spent $5 billion from the early 90's to 2014 in building up extreme right wing proxy forces in Ukraine.

Victoria Nuland’s leaked telephone conversation with Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt, in which they discussed installing Yatsenyuk after toppling Yanukovich, exposed the degree to which Washington was manipulating events in the country.

c) It highlights the utter cynicism and hypocricy of American imperialism. John Kerry, US Secretary of State under Obama, declared in March 2014 that Russia's "violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity" as a "violation of the UN charter, and a threat to peace and security in Ukraine and the wider region". He continued: “You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on [a] completely trumped up pretext.” These words, from a man who in 2002 voted to authorise George Bush to invade Iraq on the pretext of lies about non-existent weapons of mass destruction.

No one in their right mind would believe US propaganda that its policies are aimed at helping Ukraine to "defend its sovereignty and democracy". The US could not care less about democracy in Ukraine, nor how many Ukrainians die in a conflict that it has played the major role in engineering.

The US makes a habit of "violating the integrity" of multiple nations as well as trampling over their national sovereignty by overthrowing their governments: Panama, Grenada, Somalia, Haiti, Sudan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Libya....and now it is backing and funding the ongoing genocide by the Netanyahu government in Gaza.

How anyone could believe US and proNATO propaganda is either due to
i) total gullibility, naivity and a short memory, or
ii) have a material interest in doing so, or
iii) are indoctrinated with Ukrainian nationalism - an ideology which has a very sinister history, both during the interwar years and then later during the Nazi holocaust. Many of the political figures currently active in official Ukraine politics are admirers of Bandera, the infamous Nazi collaborator and leader of the OUN.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/03/03/pers-m03.html

 

[Rob R]

...and the article below summarising the 2014 crisis. Any person who reads it with an open mind will observe:
a) the article condemns the Putin regime just as much as the Ukrainian nationalist right and fascist paramilitary forces that spearheaded the Maidan putsch.

Here is a quote:" Putin represents oligarchs who enriched themselves by plundering state industry following the dissolution of the USSR. His regime is incapable of making any appeal to the Ukrainian working class or to progressive sentiment within the country. Instead, he seeks to whip up chauvinism both in Russia and eastern Ukraine, adding to the dangers of civil and sectarian warfare stoked up by the Ukrainian fascists and their American and German backers."


b)The article summarises long established evidence that the US and German governments/intelligence agencies were highly involved in funding and promoting fascist forces in Ukraine. The US had spent $5 billion from the early 90's to 2014 in building up extreme right wing proxy forces in Ukraine.

Victoria Nuland’s leaked telephone conversation with Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt, in which they discussed installing Yatsenyuk after toppling Yanukovich, exposed the degree to which Washington was manipulating events in the country.

c) It highlights the utter cynicism and hypocricy of American imperialism. John Kerry, US Secretary of State under Obama, declared in March 2014 that Russia's "violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity" as a "violation of the UN charter, and a threat to peace and security in Ukraine and the wider region". He continued: “You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on [a] completely trumped up pretext.” These words, from a man who in 2002 voted to authorise George Bush to invade Iraq on the pretext of lies about non-existent weapons of mass destruction.

No one in their right mind would believe US propaganda that its policies are aimed at helping Ukraine to "defend its sovereignty and democracy". The US could not care less about democracy in Ukraine, nor how many Ukrainians die in a conflict that it has played the major role in engineering.

The US makes a habit of "violating the integrity" of multiple nations as well as trampling over their national sovereignty by overthrowing their governments: Panama, Grenada, Somalia, Haiti, Sudan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Libya....and now it is backing and funding the ongoing genocide by the Netanyahu government in Gaza.

How anyone could believe US and proNATO propaganda is either due to
i) total gullibility, naivity and a short memory, or
ii) have a material interest in doing so, or
iii) are indoctrinated with Ukrainian nationalism - an ideology which has a very sinister history, both during the interwar years and then later during the Nazi holocaust. Many of the political figures currently active in official Ukraine politics are admirers of Bandera, the infamous Nazi collaborator and leader of the OUN.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/03/03/pers-m03.html

wsws is a totally discredited site known for being anti western in every regards.


On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[IlovethePies]

wsws is a totally discredited site known for being anti western in every regards.


On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

Discredited by whom?

And I guess you think instead news sources like the BBC, the ABC, NYTimes, DW... are credible
These function as propaganda mouthpieces for their respective governments.

 

[IlovethePies]

You seem to keep forgetting that Russia invaded Ukraine illegally

It was the Russian government that invaded Ukraine illegally, the Russian army was conscripted, and did not make this decision.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Discredited by whom?

And I guess you think instead news sources like the BBC, the ABC, NYTimes, DW... are credible
These function as propaganda mouthpieces for their respective governments.

All this is your unsubstantiated opinion.
What you believe in is really not relevant to anyone but yourself.
I really believe you are laughing hysterically like your little emoticon.
Despite it not really being funny.

 

[wannabejack]

It was the Russian government that invaded Ukraine illegally, the Russian army was conscripted, and did not make this decision.

“Vladimir Putin promised that conscripts wouldn't take part in active combat”. The russian army isn’t just made up of conscripts.

Those, that are in Ukraine killing and raping Ukrainians, made the decision to join the army aren’t conscripts according to Putin.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

“Vladimir Putin promised that conscripts wouldn't take part in active combat”. The russian army isn’t just made up of conscripts.

Those, that are in Ukraine killing and raping Ukrainians, made the decision to join the army aren’t conscripts according to Putin.