Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[CD Xbow]

Discredited by whom?

And I guess you think instead news sources like the BBC, the ABC, NYTimes, DW... are credible
These function as propaganda mouthpieces for their respective governments.

They lie constantly, just like their Russian friends. A bunch of left over Trotskyites. It should be regarded about as reliable as Fox news, but from the opposite direction.

 

[rank and file]

John Pilger was a massive campaigner

Lol,sure he was.

 

[IlovethePies]

wsws is a totally discredited site known for being anti western in every regards.


On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

The wsws, as it openly states on its website banner, is anti-capitalist. It is opposed not just to western imperialist governments, but to all governments, including that of Putin.

That is why it is the only website in the world that is truthful.

 

[IlovethePies]

They lie constantly, just like their Russian friends. A bunch of left over Trotskyites. It should be regarded about as reliable as Fox news, but from the opposite direction.

If you knew anything about Trotskyism, you would understand that genuine Trotskyists would be utterly opposed to the ex Stalinists who now run all the ex Soviet republics, including both Ukraine and Russia. But obviously you don't.

 

[CD Xbow]

If you knew anything about Trotskyism, you would understand that genuine Trotskyists would be utterly opposed to the ex Stalinists who now run all the ex Soviet republics, including both Ukraine and Russia. But obviously you don't.

Yes, I am having trouble understanding how President Z is an ex Stalinist, comedy not being the usual starting point for Stalinism. Next you're going to tell me Lenin did a stand up routine at the Second World Congress.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If you knew anything about Trotskyism, you would understand that genuine Trotskyists would be utterly opposed to the ex Stalinists who now run all the ex Soviet republics, including both Ukraine and Russia. But obviously you don't.

None of those old Russian versions of Marxism will work.
People cling to their theories like its the bible or something.

 

[Zidane98]

The wsws, as it openly states on its website banner, is anti-capitalist. It is opposed not just to western imperialist governments, but to all governments, including that of Putin.

That is why it is the only website in the world that is truthful.

And yet despite this WSWS rates lower for factual reporting than all of the websites you claimed as propaganda. WSWS often reports and promotes unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

World Socialist Web Site - Bias and Credibility

LEFT BIAS These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Overall, we rate the World Socialist Web Site (WSWS) as strongly Left Biased based on promoting anti-capitalist, socialist viewpoints. We also rate them as Mostly Factual in reporting rather than High due to the use of some sources that promote conspiracy theories.

Bias Rating: LEFT
Factual Reporting: MOSTLY FACTUAL
Country: USA
Press Freedom Rank: MOSTLY FREE
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: Medium Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY



Let's assess NYT - who you claim to be outright propaganda.

New York Times - Bias and Credibility

LEFT-CENTER BIAS These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording

mediabiasfactcheck.com

• Overall, we rate the New York Times Left-Center biased based on wording and story selection that moderately favors the left. They are considered one of the most reliable sources for news information due to proper sourcing and well-respected journalists/editors. The failed fact checks were on Op-Eds and not straight news reporting.

Bias Rating: LEFT-CENTER
Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: USA
Press Freedom Rating: MOSTLY FREE
Media Type: Newspaper
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY


WSWS was also guilty of falsely claiming Zelensky had cancelled elections. A common falsehood that is amplified in pro Russian propaganda.


This is untrue, due to the ongoing war waged by Russia elections are impossible.

https://war.ukraine.ua/articles/not-sacrificing-democracy-why-ukraine-cannot-hold-elections-under-the-martial-law/

The moment Vladimir Putin withdraws completely from Ukraine and ceases his fascist invasion an election will be called.


I am willing to bet anyone in this thread that a pro Russian party will not win the majority of the Rada in the next Ukranian elections.

 

[Zidane98]

Yes, I am having trouble understanding how President Z is an ex Stalinist, comedy not being the usual starting point for Stalinism. Next you're going to tell me Lenin did a stand up routine at the Second World Congress.

Yeah, pretty funny to claim Zelensky is a Stalinist.


Baltic ex Soviet states also do not have Stalinists as leaders either.

 

[Aussie in exile]

It was the Russian government that invaded Ukraine illegally, the Russian army was conscripted, and did not make this decision.

The Russian governmnet runs Russia does it?

 

[IlovethePies]

And yet despite this WSWS rates lower for factual reporting than all of the websites you claimed as propaganda. WSWS often reports and promotes unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

World Socialist Web Site - Bias and Credibility

LEFT BIAS These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Overall, we rate the World Socialist Web Site (WSWS) as strongly Left Biased based on promoting anti-capitalist, socialist viewpoints. We also rate them as Mostly Factual in reporting rather than High due to the use of some sources that promote conspiracy theories.

Bias Rating: LEFT
Factual Reporting: MOSTLY FACTUAL
Country: USA
Press Freedom Rank: MOSTLY FREE
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: Medium Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY



Let's assess NYT - who you claim to be outright propaganda.

New York Times - Bias and Credibility

LEFT-CENTER BIAS These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording

mediabiasfactcheck.com

• Overall, we rate the New York Times Left-Center biased based on wording and story selection that moderately favors the left. They are considered one of the most reliable sources for news information due to proper sourcing and well-respected journalists/editors. The failed fact checks were on Op-Eds and not straight news reporting.

Bias Rating: LEFT-CENTER
Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: USA
Press Freedom Rating: MOSTLY FREE
Media Type: Newspaper
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY


WSWS was also guilty of falsely claiming Zelensky had cancelled elections. A common falsehood that is amplified in pro Russian propaganda.


This is untrue, due to the ongoing war waged by Russia elections are impossible.

https://war.ukraine.ua/articles/not-sacrificing-democracy-why-ukraine-cannot-hold-elections-under-the-martial-law/

The moment Vladimir Putin withdraws completely from Ukraine and ceases his fascist invasion an election will be called.


I am willing to bet anyone in this thread that a pro Russian party will not win the majority of the Rada in the next Ukranian elections.

 

[IlovethePies]

And yet despite this WSWS rates lower for factual reporting than all of the websites you claimed as propaganda. WSWS often reports and promotes unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

World Socialist Web Site - Bias and Credibility

LEFT BIAS These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Overall, we rate the World Socialist Web Site (WSWS) as strongly Left Biased based on promoting anti-capitalist, socialist viewpoints. We also rate them as Mostly Factual in reporting rather than High due to the use of some sources that promote conspiracy theories.

Bias Rating: LEFT
Factual Reporting: MOSTLY FACTUAL
Country: USA
Press Freedom Rank: MOSTLY FREE
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: Medium Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY



Let's assess NYT - who you claim to be outright propaganda.

New York Times - Bias and Credibility

LEFT-CENTER BIAS These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording

mediabiasfactcheck.com

• Overall, we rate the New York Times Left-Center biased based on wording and story selection that moderately favors the left. They are considered one of the most reliable sources for news information due to proper sourcing and well-respected journalists/editors. The failed fact checks were on Op-Eds and not straight news reporting.

Bias Rating: LEFT-CENTER
Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: USA
Press Freedom Rating: MOSTLY FREE
Media Type: Newspaper
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY


WSWS was also guilty of falsely claiming Zelensky had cancelled elections. A common falsehood that is amplified in pro Russian propaganda.


This is untrue, due to the ongoing war waged by Russia elections are impossible.

https://war.ukraine.ua/articles/not-sacrificing-democracy-why-ukraine-cannot-hold-elections-under-the-martial-law/

The moment Vladimir Putin withdraws completely from Ukraine and ceases his fascist invasion an election will be called.


I am willing to bet anyone in this thread that a pro Russian party will not win the majority of the Rada in the next Ukranian elections.

You accept the judgement of a pro-capitalist, pro-Western "media checking agency" as to which media sources are truthful and which ones are not?

This is equivalent to asking the Consigliere whether he believes that his Mafia boss is truthful.

Any "Media bias checking" agency that rates the NY Times as high in factual reporting is corrupt to the core. The NY Times is a conduit for US and CIA propaganda

Who can forget the role of the NY Times in 2003, when it promoted the Bush administration lies about non-existent weapons of mass destruction in Iraq - to pave the way for the US invasion of that country?

At that time, the NY Times created the image of Saddam Hussein as the new Hitler, who was scheming to conquer the world.

The purpose of this was to stampede public opinion into supporting a totally criminal war aimed at seizing Iraq's oil resources and installing a pro-US regime (which has failed miserably).

Fast forward to 2022. In exactly the same way, the NY Times bombarded the media space with a picture of Putin as the new age Hitler, intent on conquering all of Europe

And for the very same reasons as in 2003. To assist the US government in carrying out military aggression against its next target.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You accept the judgement of a pro-capitalist, pro-Western "media checking agency" as to which media sources are truthful and which ones are not?

Any "Media bias checking" agency that rates the NY Times as high in factual reporting is corrupt to the core. The NY Times is a conduit for US and CIA propaganda

Who can forget the role of the NY Times in 2003, when it promoted the Bush administration lies about non-existent weapons of mass destruction in Iraq - to pave the way for the US invasion of that country?

At that time, the NY Times created the image of Saddam Hussein as the new Hitler, who was scheming to conquer the world.

The purpose of this was to stampede public opinion into supporting a totally criminal war aimed at seizing Iraq's oil resources and installing a pro-US regime (which has failed miserably).

Fast forward to 2022. In exactly the same way, the NY Times bombarded the media space with a picture of Putin as the new age Hitler, intent on conquering all of Europe

And for the very same reasons as in 2003. To assist the US government in carrying out military aggression against its next target.

I actually saw that coming. Very predictable.

We get it, your living in your own little world.
Fact is most people won't adopt your point of view, and you won't change yours.
So its pretty pointless to continue.

You don't have anything to persuade anyone else to your point of view apart from your "belief" .
Unfortunately there are all sorts of people believing all sorts of things.
At least you aren't a flat earther ( i hope ).

 

[IlovethePies]

I actually saw that coming. Very predictable.

We get it, your living in your own little world.
Fact is most people won't adopt your point of view, and you won't change yours.
So its pretty pointless to continue.

You don't have anything to persuade anyone else to your point of view apart from your "belief" .
Unfortunately there are all sorts of people believing all sorts of things.
At least you aren't a flat earther ( i hope ).

You might have seen it coming, but you can't actually answer it.

Moreover, it is not a "fact" that most people will not adopt this point of view. The jury is still out on that one.

The way that the world is careering into disaster after disaster (cost of living crisis, escalating war in Ukraine, now spilling over into Russia itself, genocide in Gaza now expanding into the West Bank, and threatening to spill into Lebanon, ongoing death from COVID, cuts in real wages globally and increasing social inequality ) suggests that the "general point of view" is not a stable quantity, and will undergo vast changes in the near future.

Which world do you live in?

 

[barreness]

How can anyone (other than those on the inside of US government) know the US involvement in the 2014 revolution / coup.

Victoria Nuland leaked phone call(by the Russians tbf, but not denied) deciding on which opposition candidates to give the green light to.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

12 CIA bases installed along the Russian border, stemming from a phone call to CIA/MI6 the day after the revolution
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/cia-ukraine-intelligence-russia-war.html

Euromaidan was popular in the west and not at all in the east with the country essentially split
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan#Analysis

The truth probably lies in the middle, the general populations of western Ukraine probably preferred NATO / West. And the east the opposite.
The US was happy to support 2014 change, but it wasn’t them alone that caused it.

Yep, was popular support no doubt and I'd say mostly a genuine grass roots thing. Ukrainian ultra's were involved in the protests also and there is rumours of them turning it violent, also rumours of police beginning the violence. It's a narrative thing and will be argued about forever as we can see by this thread.

Ukraine was broke in 2014(and still are now), having taken on large IMF debt.

They had two options; More IMF debt with a trade deal from the EU and more restructuring(austerity), or a Russian debt relief proposal(with more Russian integration and throwing away the decade of work on the NATO stuff). Yanokovitch changed last second from whatever Russian pressure was applied

The US was surely aware that backing the pro western candidate would cause Russian reaction.

From William Burns(then ambassador to Russia, now CIA director) in 2008, NATO memorandum for Ukraine/Georgia was in 2004
NATO enlargement, particularly to Ukraine, remains "an emotional and neuralgic" issue for Russia, but strategic policy considerations also underlie strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia. In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html .......whole thing is pretty interesting

All in all I think we have a fair idea what the US thought Russia would do, and they chose this path. 'To the last Ukrainian' indeed

 

[barreness]

In short, the Maidan started in late 2013 as a result of Viktor Yanukovych's decision to ignore his election promise of forming closer economic ties with the EU with a view to to becoming a member, and instead turn back towards closer ties to russia. He basically back flipped on a trade deal with the EU to sign a deal with russia.

NATO or even joining NATO wasn't on anyone's agenda in Ukraine at the time.

It wasn't a coup. The protests were largely formed by students.

Yanukovych fled to russia for asylum, after he ordered to police to fire on protesters killing around 100 people. He was voted out of his position of president by the Ukrainian parliament the day after he fled the country.

There is little to no evidence anywhere that the US/ CIA had anything to do Maidan. It's a fabulous russian talking point though.

See above post for other stuff

At the NATO summit in Bucharest in April 2008, NATO decided it would not yet offer membership to Georgia and Ukraine; nevertheless, NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said that Georgia and Ukraine would eventually become members.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit

It was on the cards since the orange revolution in 2004. Even before, Both Ukraine an Georgia sent troops to join the 'illegal' invasion of Iraq in 2003, an attempt to integrate with NATO forces

 

[barreness]

The soviets killed 9-11 million of their military while fighting just the Germans.
The Germans lost 5.5 million military while fighting multiple fronts.
UK only lost 416 thousand.

Stalin didn't give a crap.

Hmmmmmmm, like it's ok to be anti commie but chill out a little right

 

[barreness]

It was the Russian government that invaded Ukraine illegally, the Russian army was conscripted, and did not make this decision.

I do back your work here comrade but conscripts aren't allowed outside Russian borders, they're fighting in Kursk but the army invading Ukraine is volunteer(at least the vast majority)

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Hmmmmmmm, like it's ok to be anti commie but chill out a little right

Stalin didn't chill much.
He did murder a lot though.
I'd suggest the Russian workers would have been better off under the Tsars.

Imagine wiping out 1/3 of today's Australian population , that's what Stalin achieved, and that's not even including the promotion of communism in Asia.

Please don't consider me anti-communism. I'm anti murdering psychopathic megalomaniac.
Its hard to believe that the political system that enables this type is a good one though.

 

[Zidane98]

See above post for other stuff

At the NATO summit in Bucharest in April 2008, NATO decided it would not yet offer membership to Georgia and Ukraine; nevertheless, NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said that Georgia and Ukraine would eventually become members.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit

It was on the cards since the orange revolution in 2004. Even before, Both Ukraine an Georgia sent troops to join the 'illegal' invasion of Iraq in 2003, an attempt to integrate with NATO forces

When Russia attacks / invades neighbors Russia cannot be surprised when neighboring states seek collective security with NATO membership.

See Sweden / Finland. Their recent NATO membership is a direct result of completely unjustified Russian aggression against Ukraine.

It is also an absolute falsehood that any individual can decide who does or does not join NATO. Power of veto is enshrined in NATO's constitution - any member state has the absolute right to veto new membership applications.


Case in point is recent NATO accessions of Finland / Sweden which despite pretty much unified support still took over a year to complete.

Even if the war were to end tomorrow NATO membership would be years and years away for Ukraine.

Perhaps Ukraine / Russia could do a deal where Russia withdraws from CSTO (as this is a security threat to Ukraine) and totally withdraws from Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine remaining a NATO partner but not a member for at least the next 10 years.

Either way whatever deal that is done will be done on Ukraine's terms as Ukraine is no longer a vassal state of Russia and determines its own destiny. This is reality even if Putin still harbors delusions of a new Russian empire.

 

[Zidane98]

Victoria Nuland leaked phone call(by the Russians tbf, but not denied) deciding on which opposition candidates to give the green light to.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

None of which were actually elected.

12 CIA bases installed along the Russian border, stemming from a phone call to CIA/MI6 the day after the revolution
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/cia-ukraine-intelligence-russia-war.html

These are not CIA bases. These bases were run by Ukranians. The CIA did provide intelligence to the CIA in order for Ukraine to preserve its sovereignty. This is not surprising after what happened in Crimea for which the Ukranians were totally unprepared as they had already signed an agreement with Russia that Russia would not invade or violate its territorial sovereignty.

Euromaidan was popular in the west and not at all in the east with the country essentially split
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan#Analysis

There were multiple Euromadain protests in Donbass before the Russians invaded and turned it into a hell hole. There obviously were those that were not in favor of it but what matters most is the majority of people had voted for it and that was the decision the country had taken for its future.

Yep, was popular support no doubt and I'd say mostly a genuine grass roots thing. Ukrainian ultra's were involved in the protests also and there is rumours of them turning it violent, also rumours of police beginning the violence. It's a narrative thing and will be argued about forever as we can see by this thread.

Ukraine was broke in 2014(and still are now), having taken on large IMF debt.

They had two options; More IMF debt with a trade deal from the EU and more restructuring(austerity), or a Russian debt relief proposal(with more Russian integration and throwing away the decade of work on the NATO stuff). Yanokovitch changed last second from whatever Russian pressure was applied

The US was surely aware that backing the pro western candidate would cause Russian reaction.

From William Burns(then ambassador to Russia, now CIA director) in 2008, NATO memorandum for Ukraine/Georgia was in 2004
NATO enlargement, particularly to Ukraine, remains "an emotional and neuralgic" issue for Russia, but strategic policy considerations also underlie strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia. In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html .......whole thing is pretty interesting

Until Russia violated Ukraine's territory breaking all the agreements it had signed including Ukraine transferring its nuclear weapons arsenal to Russia plus its nuclear bombers Ukraine harbored little interest in joining NATO. It was discussed as something that might happen generations down the track. It certainly was not on the agenda pre invasion.

All in all I think we have a fair idea what the US thought Russia would do, and they chose this path. 'To the last Ukrainian' indeed

The US did not choose any path, you muscovites just don't get it. Ukranian people in the majority chose the path of a European future. And for good reason too - being a vassall state of Russia was nothing but bad news for Ukraine.

We now have a fascist (Putin) trying force on the people of Ukraine that they aren't allowed to do this, that they aren't really Ukranian, they are all really Russian and the only place Ukraine can be is part of a new Russian empire. Fascism 101 in every sense. Babushka who told Russian soldiers they were the fascists in Berdyanks was correct (inevitably she was arrested by the fascist invaders for "extremism").

Putin is fighting the people of Ukraine to the last Russian to realise his delusions of recreating the "Great Russian" empire or whatever fascist ideology he believes in. The question you should be asking in Russia is - how much is he prepared to destroy Russia's economy and society before he realises that this dream is simply futile?

 

[Aussie in exile]

Russia has lost over 600,000 soldiers so far all for the poisons dwarf ego

MSN

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Russia has lost over 600,000 soldiers so far all for the poisons dwarf ego

MSN

Hey its just soldiers...doesn't matter.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Hey its just soldiers...doesn't matter.

Well it won't to little legs Putin as none of his family serve in the Russian military

 

[IlovethePies]

I do back your work here comrade but conscripts aren't allowed outside Russian borders, they're fighting in Kursk but the army invading Ukraine is volunteer(at least the vast majority)

Thanks for the clarification, barreness.
And I agree, it is hugely important to be accurate.,
My original comment still stands, despite this inaccuracy. It is not the soldiers - whether conscripted or "volunteers" - who made the decision to launch a war.

 

[IlovethePies]

It's hilarious that posters here are condemning (and rightly so) Putin for sending hundreds of thousands of young Russian men to their deaths for the defence of Russian oligarchs' wealth, while remaining silent about Zelensky, who is doing the very same thing -using hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men as cannon fodder in defence of the interests of Ukrainian oligarchs and their US/European capitalist backers.