Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[barreness]

Stalin didn't chill much.
He did murder a lot though.
I'd suggest the Russian workers would have been better off under the Tsars.

Imagine wiping out 1/3 of today's Australian population , that's what Stalin achieved, and that's not even including the promotion of communism in Asia.

Please don't consider me anti-communism. I'm anti murdering psychopathic megalomaniac.
Its hard to believe that the political system that enables this type is a good one though.

You're talking about loses in WW2?

Idk man I think Nazism might have had something to do with that, not sure how Stalin gets the blame for losses stopping a genocidal regime

 

[barreness]

When Russia attacks / invades neighbors Russia cannot be surprised when neighboring states seek collective security with NATO membership.

The timelines wrong though, attempts to join NATO first, then Russian invasion after a pro western govt was put in place

See Sweden / Finland. Their recent NATO membership is a direct result of completely unjustified Russian aggression against Ukraine.

Sure, have Russia invaded them?

It is also an absolute falsehood that any individual can decide who does or does not join NATO. Power of veto is enshrined in NATO's constitution - any member state has the absolute right to veto new membership applications.

Yes I know, what's your point

Case in point is recent NATO accessions of Finland / Sweden which despite pretty much unified support still took over a year to complete.

This is kinda interesting. With Hungary and Turkey both being members whilst being somewhat belligerent, an overextension of a international military alliance can be dangerous

Even if the war were to end tomorrow NATO membership would be years and years away for Ukraine.

I agree, they've been trying for 2 decades and now getting thrown to the wolves

Perhaps Ukraine / Russia could do a deal where Russia withdraws from CSTO (as this is a security threat to Ukraine) and totally withdraws from Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine remaining a NATO partner but not a member for at least the next 10 years.

CTSO is Russia, more so than NATO is the US. It would be akin to cancelling the whole show

Either way whatever deal that is done will be done on Ukraine's terms as Ukraine is no longer a vassal state of Russia and determines its own destiny. This is reality even if Putin still harbors delusions of a new Russian empire.

I do admire the persistence of your delusions.

Why do you half quote my post, address nothing in it, then go on a wild side track to repeat the same point you've been making for 2 and a half years. Like, I KNOW

 

[barreness]

None of which were actually elected.

Ummmmmmm, might want to check that

I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Yatsenyuk_government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Yatsenyuk_Government

These are not CIA bases. These bases were run by Ukranians. The CIA did provide intelligence to the CIA in order for Ukraine to preserve its sovereignty. This is not surprising after what happened in Crimea for which the Ukranians were totally unprepared as they had already signed an agreement with Russia that Russia would not invade or violate its territorial sovereignty.

Again no, they were CIA bases. Set up and staffed by CIA, and Ukrainians

There were multiple Euromadain protests in Donbass before the Russians invaded and turned it into a hell hole. There obviously were those that were not in favor of it but what matters most is the majority of people had voted for it and that was the decision the country had taken for its future.

No one voted for Euromaiden, it was a revolution.

Read the link man, the protests were unpopular in the east and south, polled in the 30's at best

Until Russia violated Ukraine's territory breaking all the agreements it had signed including Ukraine transferring its nuclear weapons arsenal to Russia plus its nuclear bombers Ukraine harbored little interest in joining NATO. It was discussed as something that might happen generations down the track. It certainly was not on the agenda pre invasion.

You know this isn't true

Ukraine joined NATO's Partnership for Peace in 1994 and the NATO-Ukraine Commission in 1997, then agreed the NATO-Ukraine Action Plan in 2002 and entered into NATO's Intensified Dialogue program in 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations

The US did not choose any path, you muscovites just don't get it. Ukranian people in the majority chose the path of a European future. And for good reason too - being a vassall state of Russia was nothing but bad news for Ukraine.

This is the 'rules based order' fantasy, it never has existed and never will

We now have a fascist (Putin) trying force on the people of Ukraine that they aren't allowed to do this, that they aren't really Ukranian, they are all really Russian and the only place Ukraine can be is part of a new Russian empire. Fascism 101 in every sense. Babushka who told Russian soldiers they were the fascists in Berdyanks was correct (inevitably she was arrested by the fascist invaders for "extremism").

That's not fascism, Imperialism yes

Putin is fighting the people of Ukraine to the last Russian to realise his delusions of recreating the "Great Russian" empire or whatever fascist ideology he believes in. The question you should be asking in Russia is - how much is he prepared to destroy Russia's economy and society before he realises that this dream is simply futile?

Think we all know Ukraine runs out first

 

[Aussie in exile]

Ummmmmmm, might want to check that

I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Yatsenyuk_government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Yatsenyuk_Government

Again no, they were CIA bases. Set up and staffed by CIA, and Ukrainians

No one voted for Euromaiden, it was a revolution.

Read the link man, the protests were unpopular in the east and south, polled in the 30's at best

You know this isn't true

Ukraine joined NATO's Partnership for Peace in 1994 and the NATO-Ukraine Commission in 1997, then agreed the NATO-Ukraine Action Plan in 2002 and entered into NATO's Intensified Dialogue program in 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations

This is the 'rules based order' fantasy, it never has existed and never will

That's not fascism, Imperialism yes

Think we all know Ukraine runs out first

I'm still puzzled why you want Russia to beat Ukraine
You keep forgetting that Ukraine is a sovereign state that Russia invade illegally.
Why do you love Russia and Putin so much?

 

[Gethelred]

Can we please take all this shit to the "Real Socialism Thread".

Why?

It goes into geopolitics in the area, and why some look at the supplying arrangements between NATO and the US to Ukraine as replicating the Cold War West Germany stuff.

It's not irrelevant if very theoretical.

 

[Zidane98]

Ummmmmmm, might want to check that

I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Yatsenyuk_government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Yatsenyuk_Government

Again no, they were CIA bases. Set up and staffed by CIA, and Ukrainians

No one voted for Euromaiden, it was a revolution.

Read the link man, the protests were unpopular in the east and south, polled in the 30's at best

You know this isn't true

Ukraine joined NATO's Partnership for Peace in 1994 and the NATO-Ukraine Commission in 1997, then agreed the NATO-Ukraine Action Plan in 2002 and entered into NATO's Intensified Dialogue program in 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations

This is the 'rules based order' fantasy, it never has existed and never will

That's not fascism, Imperialism yes

Think we all know Ukraine runs out first

This is nonsense on so many levels and clearly an attempt at spreading of pro Russian propaganda of which you have failed to get again.


Firstly, the Rada remained unchanged apart from Yanuthief fleeing Ukraine.

The Rada voted that Yanukovych abandoned his position of president which is pretty obvious to anyone but pro Russian fascists.

Secondly, a temporary leader was voted in by the Rada (Turchynov). The very same Rada that existed prior to the revolution of dignity and also the Rada member who preceded Yats.

Russia also was a NATO security partner as are many nations. This means nothing. The facts were NATO membership is no threat to Russia (as evidenced by Finland border) and that membership with NATO was a possibility decades down the track.

Also the people voted for a government that had agreed to integration into Europe with democracy.

When Yanukovych deliberately defied agreements by the Rada in exchange for being a Russian puppet that was the last straw for the majority of Ukrainians that suffered for years under Russian subjugation.

This sparked the revolution of dignity which had the overwhelming support of Ukrainians who reject autocracy / Russia. .

Lastly, you fully know that Ukraine has the support of most of the free world.

Russia has very few friends. Putin will continue to fight Ukraine to the last Russian but my prediction is eventually enough will be enough and a hero of the everyday Russian person will eventually denazify Putin or his military turns on him.

 

[Rob R]

I'm still puzzled why you want Russia to beat Ukraine
You keep forgetting that Ukraine is a sovereign state that Russia invade illegally.
Why do you love Russia and Putin so much?

He doesn't love Russia but needs to justify the invasion and talks up its chances of success as its dismal failure is causing propaganda problems for his hero Xis plans to launch a murderous invasion of peaceful democratic and independent Taiwan while stealing more land and islands from.the Philippines,Bhutan, India, Indonesia, Vietnam and eventually Japan and Russia.

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[barreness]

I'm still puzzled why you want Russia to beat Ukraine
You keep forgetting that Ukraine is a sovereign state that Russia invade illegally.
Why do you love Russia and Putin so much?

The entire post is correcting falsehoods about euromaiden

Nothing to do with my unending love for the one true czar Putin

 

[barreness]

This is nonsense on so many levels and clearly an attempt at spreading of pro Russian propaganda of which you have failed to get again.


Firstly, the Rada remained unchanged apart from Yanuthief fleeing Ukraine.

The Rada voted that Yanukovych abandoned his position of president which is pretty obvious to anyone but pro Russian fascists.

Secondly, a temporary leader was voted in by the Rada (Turchynov). The very same Rada that existed prior to the revolution of dignity and also the Rada member who preceded Yats.

Russia also was a NATO security partner as are many nations. This means nothing. The facts were NATO membership is no threat to Russia (as evidenced by Finland border) and that membership with NATO was a possibility decades down the track.

Also the people voted for a government that had agreed to integration into Europe with democracy.

When Yanukovych deliberately defied agreements by the Rada in exchange for being a Russian puppet that was the last straw for the majority of Ukrainians that suffered for years under Russian subjugation.

This sparked the revolution of dignity which had the overwhelming support of Ukrainians who reject autocracy / Russia. .

Lastly, you fully know that Ukraine has the support of most of the free world.

Russia has very few friends. Putin will continue to fight Ukraine to the last Russian but my prediction is eventually enough will be enough and a hero of the everyday Russian person will eventually denazify Putin or his military turns on him.

Yes lets misdirect some more

None of which were actually elected.

Can you admit this bit is wrong at least? baby steps for you zizi

 

[Mofra]

You're talking about loses in WW2?

Idk man I think Nazism might have had something to do with that, not sure how Stalin gets the blame for losses stopping a genocidal regime

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Stalin was a monster well before WW2

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You're talking about loses in WW2?

Idk man I think Nazism might have had something to do with that, not sure how Stalin gets the blame for losses stopping a genocidal regime

Someone was suggesting that the Russian army in WWII, was some sort of super irresistible force.
In fact they were very ineffective and Stalin was simply throwing the not dead yet corpses of Russians at the Germans.

Russian lives were very cheap.

 

[jatz14]

Someone was suggesting that the Russian army in WWII, was some sort of super irresistible force.
In fact they were very ineffective and Stalin was simply throwing the not dead yet corpses of Russians at the Germans.

Russian lives were very cheap.

He refused requests to evacuate people from Stalingrad because he thought troops would fight harder for a city that had women and children in it.

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[barreness]

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Stalin was a monster well before WW2

yes, probable preventable famine, not a genocide

Hope you're just as condemning of Churchill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

 

[barreness]

Someone was suggesting that the Russian army in WWII, was some sort of super irresistible force.
In fact they were very ineffective and Stalin was simply throwing the not dead yet corpses of Russians at the Germans.

Russian lives were very cheap.

Ok so tell me you love nazi propaganda.

They fought the same as every army in ww2, suffering terrible casualties.

They weren't some super irresistable force, in fact they lost like 30 million. Still running the 'throwing men to the guns' line, try understand history beyond the propaganda lines

 

[barreness]

He refused requests to evacuate people from Stalingrad because he thought troops would fight harder for a city that had women and children in it.

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Yeh Stalin was a terrible person. The battle of Staligrad was the turning point of the war in Europe and the start the of the eventual defeat of fascism, you can knit pick but I think you'd agree the result was for the better

 

[barreness]

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Stalin was a monster well before WW2

Stalin didn't chill much.
He did murder a lot though.
I'd suggest the Russian workers would have been better off under the Tsars.

This is the quote i'm responding to by the way, if you want to raise the holodomor don't quote ww2 posts

 

[IlovethePies]

You would approve the invasion of Ukraine because it cannot be proven to a certainty that there is no existential threat to Russia?

Well, I can prove there is an existential threat to Ukraine.

The proven existential threat to Ukraine trumps the, cannot be proven to a certainty to not be existential threat to Russia.

Does Russia pose an existential threat to Poland? Its mush more likely than an existential threat to Russia.

Does Russia pose an existential threat to the Baltic states, because thats much more likely than any threat to Russia.

Given you justify the invasion of Ukraine on the basis that we cannot 100% discount and existential threat to Russia. What actions against Russia would you justify on the basis of existential threats it poses to its neighbours, that I am assuming, you cannot 100% discount?


Be very specific. What actions does this threat justify?

At a minimum, making sure Ukraine is backed sufficiently so that Russia cannot win, would be a good start. And I emphasise, start.

...and that is where your entire argument collapses in rubble. I never have justified Russia's invastion of Ukraine. I have repeatedly condemned it.

I have explained why Russia invaded Ukraine, that does not mean I justify it.

I have explained it as a reaction to US/NATO provocations via their proxy, the Zelensky government. Therefore the natue of this war is not an isolated conflict between Ukraine and Russia - it is an imperialist war. Behind Zelensky stand the geopolitical and profit interests mainly of US imperialism, but also those of the major NATO nations.

By invading Ukraine, Putin played into their hands. This is precisely what US imperialism was gunning for...a pretext to begin supplying Ukraine with weaponry and to fight to the very last Ukrainian in order to destablise Russia by bleeding its economy white.

This plan however has failed catastrophically for the US/NATO powers, as Russia has been able to survive the US/European economic sanctions, and is now gradually winning the war.

The only way that the US/NATO alliance can continue this war will be ultimately to supply forces themselves.

Does any of this suggest that I am a supporter of Putin??

If you answered yes, then you need to improve your comprehension skills.

 

[Zidane98]

...and that is where your entire argument collapses in rubble. I never have justified Russia's invastion of Ukraine. I have repeatedly condemned it.

I have explained why Russia invaded Ukraine, that does not mean I justify it.

I have explained it as a reaction to US/NATO provocations via their proxy, the Zelensky government. Therefore the natue of this war is not an isolated conflict between Ukraine and Russia - it is an imperialist war. Behind Zelensky stand the geopolitical and profit interests mainly of US imperialism, but also those of the major NATO nations.

By invading Ukraine, Putin played into their hands. This is precisely what US imperialism was gunning for...a pretext to begin supplying Ukraine with weaponry and to fight to the very last Ukrainian in order to destablise Russia by bleeding its economy white.

This plan however has failed catastrophically for the US/NATO powers, as Russia has been able to survive the US/European economic sanctions, and is now gradually winning the war.

The only way that the US/NATO alliance can continue this war will be ultimately to supply forces themselves.

Does any of this suggest that I am a supporter of Putin??

If you answered yes, then you need to improve your comprehension skills.

You say you aren't a Putin supporter yet everything in this posts mirrors all of the nonsense Putin regularly spouts despite it being clearly nonsense.

If you are concerned about US/NATO imperialism go and start a thread about it. In terms of the Ukraine war thread it's irrelevant and quite frankly we're all becoming a bit tired of your repetition of it. Feel free to discuss what Russia and Ukraine are doing because that's why this thread is all about.

 

[Bloods86]

...and that is where your entire argument collapses in rubble. I never have justified Russia's invastion of Ukraine. I have repeatedly condemned it.

I have explained why Russia invaded Ukraine, that does not mean I justify it.

I have explained it as a reaction to US/NATO provocations via their proxy, the Zelensky government. Therefore the natue of this war is not an isolated conflict between Ukraine and Russia - it is an imperialist war. Behind Zelensky stand the geopolitical and profit interests mainly of US imperialism, but also those of the major NATO nations.

By invading Ukraine, Putin played into their hands. This is precisely what US imperialism was gunning for...a pretext to begin supplying Ukraine with weaponry and to fight to the very last Ukrainian in order to destablise Russia by bleeding its economy white.

This plan however has failed catastrophically for the US/NATO powers, as Russia has been able to survive the US/European economic sanctions, and is now gradually winning the war.

The only way that the US/NATO alliance can continue this war will be ultimately to supply forces themselves.

Does any of this suggest that I am a supporter of Putin??

If you answered yes, then you need to improve your comprehension skills.

You have claimed that the US/NATO provoked Russia into invading Ukraine, which is a nonsense claim.

Russia didn't just fall for it, they and supporters invented the narrative. Which you seem to have fallen for.

You provide cherry-picked definitions and comparisons that are charitable to Russia, while pretending the worst has to apply always for Ukraine's (and allies) intentions.

 

[Gethelred]

For the last time...

If you want to talk about NATO or US involvement in funding Ukraine's defense or gesticulate in the direction of wider geopolitics, this is the thread to do it in. The other thread is significantly more narrow in scope, concerning the events and discussion of the conflict itself.

From this point, posters who stray away from that very simple statement of the thread topics will see their posts deleted. If it keeps happening, threadbans will be issued.

Let's also make sure things are abundantly clear: the rules are not there to be enforced against those you disagree with. Thread regulars who try and lure new posters into breaking the rules will themselves receive infractions or threadbans should it start to happen.

Let's play nicely from here.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yeh Stalin was a terrible person. The battle of Staligrad was the turning point of the war in Europe and the start the of the eventual defeat of fascism, you can knit pick but I think you'd agree the result was for the better

Wars not withstanding, I'd rather have been a ( Non-Jewish, though anti-semitism wasn't a feature of Italian Facism until they were co-erced by the Germans ), regular working class citizen under Facism, than a regular working class citizen under Lenon or particularly, Stalin's Communist rule.

The Russian revolution was misguided, the Tzar was not great , but the people were better off than they were under that early communism.

 

[IlovethePies]

Wars not withstanding, I'd rather have been a ( Non-Jewish, though anti-semitism wasn't a feature of Italian Facism until they were co-erced by the Germans ), regular working class citizen under Facism, than a regular working class citizen under Lenon or particularly, Stalin's Communist rule.

The Russian revolution was misguided, the Tzar was not great , but the people were better off than they were under that early communism.

Stalinism, with its program of socialism in one country, was a version of national socialism.
Hitler's nazi party, was also a version of national socialism.
It is not accidental that the Stalinist dictatorship resembled very closely the Hitler dictatorship in its murderous violence against potential opposition.
The fundamental difference was that Hitler's regime was based on defending capitalism, while Stalin's dictatorship still rested upon the nationalised property relations established by the Russian Revolution in 1917.

As I have posted many times here however, the Stalinist dictatorship was actually the antithesis of the original program of Lenin and Trotsky. The Stalinist bureaucracy usurped power from the genuine Bolsheviks (who were socialist internationalists), from 1924 onwards, and ultimately - during the Great Terror - the Stalinists carried out a mass extermination of all people within the Soviet Union who identified in any way with the ideas of international socialism - ie, the original program of Lenin and Trotsky.

Your claim that the Russian Revolution was "misguided" is a very common one, based as it is on the lies that have been promoted for decades by pro-imperialist historians, official school curriculums and the corporate media.

The fundamental lie was that Stalinism was the inevitable outcome of the Russian Revolution. The corollary of that is that socialist revolution must never be attempted again, because it will only lead to a fascist like dictatorship.

This is a monstrous political lie. There was an alternative to Stalinism. It was carried forward by the Left Opposition within the Soviet Union, until about 1928 - when Stalin began to imprison, exile, and ultimately murder the members of the Left Opposition.

It was Stalin who did the greatest service to Hitler by murdering tens of thousands of genuine socialists.

However there was nothing inevitable about the rise to power of Stalinism. The fundamental reason for the victory of Stalinism over socialist internationalism within the Soviet Union was due to the fact that the Russian Revolution did not extend beyond the borders of the Soviet Union. The Bolshevik Party was the most advanced, politically clear and well disciplined revolutionary party in the world. Throughout Europe (Germany, Poland, Bulgaria, France etc) there were also Communist parties, but none of them had reached the necessary level of maturity to be capable of carrying out the socialist revolution.

There were multiple opportunities, especially for the German Communist party, to carry out a socialist revolution in the 1923. The working class was fully prepared. But the leader of the KPD (German Communist party) faltered, did not have the necessary political clarity and conviction to carry it through. At the last moment, he cancelled the insurrection This allowed the Social Democratic president Ebert to unleash the army against the insurgent workers, and to establish an effective military dictatorship.

Had the German revolution succeeded, as it could easily have done, we would be living in a totally different world today. The German working class would have linked up with the Soviet working class; both economies would have progressed at a rate which would have totally outstripped the capitalist economies around, due to the superiority of a planned economy over the anarchic capitalist market.

But even more importantly, the working class in other countries would have been inspired to carry out socialist revolution as well, linking up with the German and Soviet working class.

It is hard to know how long American capitalism would have held up, but the revolutionary energy of socialist revolution would have soon swept to its shores.

Instead, the Soviet Union remained isolated, Soviet workers who had been watching the events in Germany with such hope and anticipation, were deeply disappointed. And while the isolation was not broken, the Stalinists could find fertile ground for promoting their anti-Marxist theory that socialism could be built in one country.

in the 80's (under Gorbachev) and early 90's the Stalinist bureaucracy drew the conclusion that to preserve its wealth and privileges, it needed to transform itself into capitalists who actually owned the property that had been nationalised. The Stalinists in Ukraine, Russia, and all the separate republics, used extreme nationalism, and hatred of the Stalinist dictatorship in the working class, to convince the population that capitalism would improve their existence.

As is well documented, a catastrophic decline in living standards and life expectancy occurred as a result of the imposition of capitalism in the ex USSR. The Stalinist bureaucrats used their political power to embezzle, steal, the nationalised property.

Both Putin and Zelensky trace their social origins to this corrupt, avaricious, antisocial layer who liquidated the Soviet Union for their own material benefits.

 

[IlovethePies]

You say you aren't a Putin supporter yet everything in this posts mirrors all of the nonsense Putin regularly spouts despite it being clearly nonsense.

If you are concerned about US/NATO imperialism go and start a thread about it. In terms of the Ukraine war thread it's irrelevant and quite frankly we're all becoming a bit tired of your repetition of it. Feel free to discuss what Russia and Ukraine are doing because that's why this thread is all about.

Absolutely not. Why would I do that when it was US/NATO imperialism that provoked this war in the first place??
...and nothing I say mirrors Putin's "nonsense". Putin would have me arrested immediately should I go to the Russia. The only thing that Putin says which is true, is that there are neo-Nazis holding key positions in the Zelensky regime and in the Ukrainian military.

However, Putin's claim that he is aiming to "de-Nazify" Ukraine is a total lie. There are plenty of Nazis in Russia, and he does not arrest them. Putin invaded Ukraine for one purpose only: to defend the interests of significant sections of the Russian capitalist class, which are fearful that the US/NATO will depose them and substitute instead other sections of the Russian capitalist class willing to be US/NATO puppets


I'm getting tired of your claims that Putin is a "fascist" carrying out "genocide"" (genocide implies the deliberate attempt to annihilate a population based on ethnicity or cultural beliefs. Putin is simply not doing that in Ukraine) , and your other claim that the UKrainian government is leading a crusade for "national freedom and democracy".

You speak for yourself and your fellow pro-Zelensky posters.

I speak for those who don't agree with you, and I will feel free to continue to post on this thread to counteract the propaganda that you post, and offer an alternative analysis of how this war developed.

 

[jatz14]

Yeh Stalin was a terrible person. The battle of Staligrad was the turning point of the war in Europe and the start the of the eventual defeat of fascism, you can knit pick but I think you'd agree the result was for the better

Would it still have been a turning point if those civilians hadn't died, because they were evacuated?

.



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[jatz14]

Ok so tell me you love nazi propaganda.

They fought the same as every army in ww2, suffering terrible casualties.

They weren't some super irresistable force, in fact they lost like 30 million. Still running the 'throwing men to the guns' line, try understand history beyond the propaganda lines

Russian military losses in WW2 were double Germanies, who were fighting a 2 front war, and in Africa, Greece, and Italy.

It was absolutely meatwave tactics, built on an utter disregard for human life.

Nothing's changed it seems.

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