Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

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[barreness]

Stalin didn't chill much.
He did murder a lot though.
I'd suggest the Russian workers would have been better off under the Tsars.

Imagine wiping out 1/3 of today's Australian population , that's what Stalin achieved, and that's not even including the promotion of communism in Asia.

Please don't consider me anti-communism. I'm anti murdering psychopathic megalomaniac.
Its hard to believe that the political system that enables this type is a good one though.

You're talking about loses in WW2?

Idk man I think Nazism might have had something to do with that, not sure how Stalin gets the blame for losses stopping a genocidal regime

 

[barreness]

When Russia attacks / invades neighbors Russia cannot be surprised when neighboring states seek collective security with NATO membership.

The timelines wrong though, attempts to join NATO first, then Russian invasion after a pro western govt was put in place

See Sweden / Finland. Their recent NATO membership is a direct result of completely unjustified Russian aggression against Ukraine.

Sure, have Russia invaded them?

It is also an absolute falsehood that any individual can decide who does or does not join NATO. Power of veto is enshrined in NATO's constitution - any member state has the absolute right to veto new membership applications.

Yes I know, what's your point

Case in point is recent NATO accessions of Finland / Sweden which despite pretty much unified support still took over a year to complete.

This is kinda interesting. With Hungary and Turkey both being members whilst being somewhat belligerent, an overextension of a international military alliance can be dangerous

Even if the war were to end tomorrow NATO membership would be years and years away for Ukraine.

I agree, they've been trying for 2 decades and now getting thrown to the wolves

Perhaps Ukraine / Russia could do a deal where Russia withdraws from CSTO (as this is a security threat to Ukraine) and totally withdraws from Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine remaining a NATO partner but not a member for at least the next 10 years.

CTSO is Russia, more so than NATO is the US. It would be akin to cancelling the whole show

Either way whatever deal that is done will be done on Ukraine's terms as Ukraine is no longer a vassal state of Russia and determines its own destiny. This is reality even if Putin still harbors delusions of a new Russian empire.

I do admire the persistence of your delusions.

Why do you half quote my post, address nothing in it, then go on a wild side track to repeat the same point you've been making for 2 and a half years. Like, I KNOW

 

[barreness]

None of which were actually elected.

Ummmmmmm, might want to check that

I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Yatsenyuk_government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Yatsenyuk_Government

These are not CIA bases. These bases were run by Ukranians. The CIA did provide intelligence to the CIA in order for Ukraine to preserve its sovereignty. This is not surprising after what happened in Crimea for which the Ukranians were totally unprepared as they had already signed an agreement with Russia that Russia would not invade or violate its territorial sovereignty.

Again no, they were CIA bases. Set up and staffed by CIA, and Ukrainians

There were multiple Euromadain protests in Donbass before the Russians invaded and turned it into a hell hole. There obviously were those that were not in favor of it but what matters most is the majority of people had voted for it and that was the decision the country had taken for its future.

No one voted for Euromaiden, it was a revolution.

Read the link man, the protests were unpopular in the east and south, polled in the 30's at best

Until Russia violated Ukraine's territory breaking all the agreements it had signed including Ukraine transferring its nuclear weapons arsenal to Russia plus its nuclear bombers Ukraine harbored little interest in joining NATO. It was discussed as something that might happen generations down the track. It certainly was not on the agenda pre invasion.

You know this isn't true

Ukraine joined NATO's Partnership for Peace in 1994 and the NATO-Ukraine Commission in 1997, then agreed the NATO-Ukraine Action Plan in 2002 and entered into NATO's Intensified Dialogue program in 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations

The US did not choose any path, you muscovites just don't get it. Ukranian people in the majority chose the path of a European future. And for good reason too - being a vassall state of Russia was nothing but bad news for Ukraine.

This is the 'rules based order' fantasy, it never has existed and never will

We now have a fascist (Putin) trying force on the people of Ukraine that they aren't allowed to do this, that they aren't really Ukranian, they are all really Russian and the only place Ukraine can be is part of a new Russian empire. Fascism 101 in every sense. Babushka who told Russian soldiers they were the fascists in Berdyanks was correct (inevitably she was arrested by the fascist invaders for "extremism").

That's not fascism, Imperialism yes

Putin is fighting the people of Ukraine to the last Russian to realise his delusions of recreating the "Great Russian" empire or whatever fascist ideology he believes in. The question you should be asking in Russia is - how much is he prepared to destroy Russia's economy and society before he realises that this dream is simply futile?

Think we all know Ukraine runs out first

 

[Aussie in exile]

Ummmmmmm, might want to check that

I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Yatsenyuk_government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Yatsenyuk_Government

Again no, they were CIA bases. Set up and staffed by CIA, and Ukrainians

No one voted for Euromaiden, it was a revolution.

Read the link man, the protests were unpopular in the east and south, polled in the 30's at best

You know this isn't true

Ukraine joined NATO's Partnership for Peace in 1994 and the NATO-Ukraine Commission in 1997, then agreed the NATO-Ukraine Action Plan in 2002 and entered into NATO's Intensified Dialogue program in 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations

This is the 'rules based order' fantasy, it never has existed and never will

That's not fascism, Imperialism yes

Think we all know Ukraine runs out first

I'm still puzzled why you want Russia to beat Ukraine
You keep forgetting that Ukraine is a sovereign state that Russia invade illegally.
Why do you love Russia and Putin so much?

 

[Gethelred]

Can we please take all this shit to the "Real Socialism Thread".

Why?

It goes into geopolitics in the area, and why some look at the supplying arrangements between NATO and the US to Ukraine as replicating the Cold War West Germany stuff.

It's not irrelevant if very theoretical.

 

[Zidane98]

Ummmmmmm, might want to check that

I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Yatsenyuk_government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Yatsenyuk_Government

Again no, they were CIA bases. Set up and staffed by CIA, and Ukrainians

No one voted for Euromaiden, it was a revolution.

Read the link man, the protests were unpopular in the east and south, polled in the 30's at best

You know this isn't true

Ukraine joined NATO's Partnership for Peace in 1994 and the NATO-Ukraine Commission in 1997, then agreed the NATO-Ukraine Action Plan in 2002 and entered into NATO's Intensified Dialogue program in 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations

This is the 'rules based order' fantasy, it never has existed and never will

That's not fascism, Imperialism yes

Think we all know Ukraine runs out first

This is nonsense on so many levels and clearly an attempt at spreading of pro Russian propaganda of which you have failed to get again.


Firstly, the Rada remained unchanged apart from Yanuthief fleeing Ukraine.

The Rada voted that Yanukovych abandoned his position of president which is pretty obvious to anyone but pro Russian fascists.

Secondly, a temporary leader was voted in by the Rada (Turchynov). The very same Rada that existed prior to the revolution of dignity and also the Rada member who preceded Yats.

Russia also was a NATO security partner as are many nations. This means nothing. The facts were NATO membership is no threat to Russia (as evidenced by Finland border) and that membership with NATO was a possibility decades down the track.

Also the people voted for a government that had agreed to integration into Europe with democracy.

When Yanukovych deliberately defied agreements by the Rada in exchange for being a Russian puppet that was the last straw for the majority of Ukrainians that suffered for years under Russian subjugation.

This sparked the revolution of dignity which had the overwhelming support of Ukrainians who reject autocracy / Russia. .

Lastly, you fully know that Ukraine has the support of most of the free world.

Russia has very few friends. Putin will continue to fight Ukraine to the last Russian but my prediction is eventually enough will be enough and a hero of the everyday Russian person will eventually denazify Putin or his military turns on him.

 

[Rob R]

I'm still puzzled why you want Russia to beat Ukraine
You keep forgetting that Ukraine is a sovereign state that Russia invade illegally.
Why do you love Russia and Putin so much?

He doesn't love Russia but needs to justify the invasion and talks up its chances of success as its dismal failure is causing propaganda problems for his hero Xis plans to launch a murderous invasion of peaceful democratic and independent Taiwan while stealing more land and islands from.the Philippines,Bhutan, India, Indonesia, Vietnam and eventually Japan and Russia.

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[barreness]

I'm still puzzled why you want Russia to beat Ukraine
You keep forgetting that Ukraine is a sovereign state that Russia invade illegally.
Why do you love Russia and Putin so much?

The entire post is correcting falsehoods about euromaiden

Nothing to do with my unending love for the one true czar Putin

 

[barreness]

This is nonsense on so many levels and clearly an attempt at spreading of pro Russian propaganda of which you have failed to get again.


Firstly, the Rada remained unchanged apart from Yanuthief fleeing Ukraine.

The Rada voted that Yanukovych abandoned his position of president which is pretty obvious to anyone but pro Russian fascists.

Secondly, a temporary leader was voted in by the Rada (Turchynov). The very same Rada that existed prior to the revolution of dignity and also the Rada member who preceded Yats.

Russia also was a NATO security partner as are many nations. This means nothing. The facts were NATO membership is no threat to Russia (as evidenced by Finland border) and that membership with NATO was a possibility decades down the track.

Also the people voted for a government that had agreed to integration into Europe with democracy.

When Yanukovych deliberately defied agreements by the Rada in exchange for being a Russian puppet that was the last straw for the majority of Ukrainians that suffered for years under Russian subjugation.

This sparked the revolution of dignity which had the overwhelming support of Ukrainians who reject autocracy / Russia. .

Lastly, you fully know that Ukraine has the support of most of the free world.

Russia has very few friends. Putin will continue to fight Ukraine to the last Russian but my prediction is eventually enough will be enough and a hero of the everyday Russian person will eventually denazify Putin or his military turns on him.

Yes lets misdirect some more

None of which were actually elected.

Can you admit this bit is wrong at least? baby steps for you zizi

 

[Mofra]

You're talking about loses in WW2?

Idk man I think Nazism might have had something to do with that, not sure how Stalin gets the blame for losses stopping a genocidal regime

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Stalin was a monster well before WW2

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You're talking about loses in WW2?

Idk man I think Nazism might have had something to do with that, not sure how Stalin gets the blame for losses stopping a genocidal regime

Someone was suggesting that the Russian army in WWII, was some sort of super irresistible force.
In fact they were very ineffective and Stalin was simply throwing the not dead yet corpses of Russians at the Germans.

Russian lives were very cheap.

 

[jatz14]

Someone was suggesting that the Russian army in WWII, was some sort of super irresistible force.
In fact they were very ineffective and Stalin was simply throwing the not dead yet corpses of Russians at the Germans.

Russian lives were very cheap.

He refused requests to evacuate people from Stalingrad because he thought troops would fight harder for a city that had women and children in it.

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