Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

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[jatz14]

Absolutely not. Why would I do that when it was US/NATO imperialism that provoked this war in the first place??
...and nothing I say mirrors Putin's "nonsense". Putin would have me arrested immediately should I go to the Russia. The only thing that Putin says which is true, is that there are neo-Nazis holding key positions in the Zelensky regime and in the Ukrainian military.

However, Putin's claim that he is aiming to "de-Nazify" Ukraine is a total lie. There are plenty of Nazis in Russia, and he does not arrest them. Putin invaded Ukraine for one purpose only: to defend the interests of significant sections of the Russian capitalist class, which are fearful that the US/NATO will depose them and substitute instead other sections of the Russian capitalist class willing to be US/NATO puppets


I'm getting tired of your claims that Putin is a "fascist" carrying out "genocide"" (genocide implies the deliberate attempt to annihilate a population based on ethnicity or cultural beliefs. Putin is simply not doing that in Ukraine) , and your other claim that the UKrainian government is leading a crusade for "national freedom and democracy".

You speak for yourself and your fellow pro-Zelensky posters.

I speak for those who don't agree with you, and I will feel free to continue to post on this thread to counteract the propaganda that you post, and offer an alternative analysis of how this war developed.

It's amazing how you have turned Ukraine seeking protection from Russian imperialism into proof of Western imperialism.

Yet again illustrating an adoption of the Vatniks imperialism definition. Anything they do is imperialism, anything we do, is not.

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[IlovethePies]

It's amazing how you have turned Ukraine seeking protection from Russian imperialism into proof of Western imperialism.

Yet again illustrating an adoption of the Vatniks imperialism definition. Anything they do is imperialism, anything we do, is not.

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Huh?? You still don't understand the meaning of imperialism. Someone here (was it you?) quoted some dictionary definition, and thought that proved the point

 

[IlovethePies]

Russian military losses in WW2 were double Germanies, who were fighting a 2 front war, and in Africa, Greece, and Italy.

It was absolutely meatwave tactics, built on an utter disregard for human life.

Nothing's changed it seems.

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How can you post such rubbish, and think it is OK??

The population of the Soviet Union were fighting for their survival.

The program of Hitler was to annihilate the "Slavic untermenschen" (as well as the Jewish population)

The Soviet working class understood this. They also understood that everything they had fought for in the Russian Revolution was at stake.

So, in spite of Stalin (not because of Stalin), they sacrificed their lives, - in their millions - to halt the Nazi juggernaut.

Your version is disgusting...it is a grotesque distortion of what actually happened in the war of the Soviet Union against Nazi Germany.

 

[Chief]

How can you post such rubbish, and think it is OK??

The population of the Soviet Union were fighting for their survival.

The program of Hitler was to annihilate the "Slavic untermenschen" (as well as the Jewish population)

The Soviet working class understood this. They also understood that everything they had fought for in the Russian Revolution was at stake.

So, in spite of Stalin (not because of Stalin), they sacrificed their lives, - in their millions - to halt the Nazi juggernaut.

Your version is disgusting...it is a grotesque distortion of what actually happened in the war of the Soviet Union against Nazi Germany.

Like the Ukrainians are doing now?

 

[IlovethePies]

Like the Ukrainians are doing now?

Completely wrong.

Putin does not have a program of annihilating the "slavic untermenschen"
His program is to put pressure on US/NATO imperialism to cut a deal which ensures that Ukraine remains neutral, and not a member of NATO.
He bears no resemblance to Hitler in his political role.

The Zelensky government is based on capitalist property relations, and on defending the massive wealth of a thin layer of Ukrainian oligarchs who have cemented their future in alliance with US imperialism.
Since the restoration of capitalism in Ukraine, Ukrainian workers have experienced nothing except relentless destruction of their living standards, and a contraction of economic activity. Ukrainian workers have no interest whatsoever in defending the continued domination of the economy by Ukrainian oligarchs.

Everything in this situation is the opposite of what occurred in the Soviet Union during the Nazi invasion.

 

[Chief]

Putin does not have a program of annihilating the "slavic untermenschen"
His program is to put pressure on US/NATO imperialism to cut a deal which ensures that Ukraine remains neutral, and not a member of NATO.
He bears no resemblance to Hitler in his political role.

Putin's whole "Ukraine doesn't even exist" bit still hasn't registered with you?

 

[jatz14]

How can you post such rubbish, and think it is OK??

The population of the Soviet Union were fighting for their survival.

The program of Hitler was to annihilate the "Slavic untermenschen" (as well as the Jewish population)

The Soviet working class understood this. They also understood that everything they had fought for in the Russian Revolution was at stake.

So, in spite of Stalin (not because of Stalin), they sacrificed their lives, - in their millions - to halt the Nazi juggernaut.

Your version is disgusting...it is a grotesque distortion of what actually happened in the war of the Soviet Union against Nazi Germany.

My version is what actually happened.

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[IlovethePies]

Putin's whole "Ukraine doesn't even exist" bit still hasn't registered with you?

This was an appeal to Russian nationalism, and yes was an inflammatory remark. But it did not herald the setting up of concentration camps, and the wholesale extermination of the Ukrainian population - mass executions, burning people alive, etc that Hitler's armies carried out in the former Soviet Union.

Hitler's armies rolled relentlessly east, annihilating as much as they could in their path. The war in Ukraine is a war of attrition, often characterised by stalemates, and ever slow progress on either side. It does not bear any resemblance to the Nazi invasion of the ex Soviet Union.

And likewise, the geopolitical issues are vastly different.

 

[Zidane98]

This was an appeal to Russian nationalism, and yes was an inflammatory remark. But it did not herald the setting up of concentration camps, and the wholesale extermination of the Ukrainian population - mass executions, burning people alive, etc that Hitler's armies carried out in the former Soviet Union.

Hitler's armies rolled relentlessly east, annihilating as much as they could in their path. The war in Ukraine is a war of attrition, often characterised by stalemates, and ever slow progress on either side. It does not bear any resemblance to the Nazi invasion of the ex Soviet Union.

And likewise, the geopolitical issues are vastly different.

Putin has mass deported children to Russia - even has an international arrest warrant out for it.

He has set up filtration camps for Ukrainians kidnapped to Russia

Putin's war is characterised by events like Bucha, murder, torture and sexual violence against anyone who dares to be Ukranian in Ukraine.

Putin even uses similar rhetoric to Hitler in his speeches



Putin demonises Ukranian language, culture & sovereignty in his speeches. Talks about new Russia regularly and thinks he is a modern day Tsar. It's never his fault when Russia suffers setback after setback.

Putin is the biggest threat to worldwide security, it's just how it is.

And brave Ukranians are fighting off his invading fascist army who are sent with no regard for their lives in huge numbers, at least a 5-1 troop / artillery advantage.

The world owes them more support.

 

[wannabejack]

This was an appeal to Russian nationalism, and yes was an inflammatory remark. But it did not herald the setting up of concentration camps, and the wholesale extermination of the Ukrainian population - mass executions, burning people alive, etc that Hitler's armies carried out in the former Soviet Union.

Hitler's armies rolled relentlessly east, annihilating as much as they could in their path. The war in Ukraine is a war of attrition, often characterised by stalemates, and ever slow progress on either side. It does not bear any resemblance to the Nazi invasion of the ex Soviet Union.

And likewise, the geopolitical issues are vastly different.

You forgot to mention another important difference between Hitler and Putin.
Hitler had a funny little moustache.

 

[Bloods86]

This was an appeal to Russian nationalism, and yes was an inflammatory remark. But it did not herald the setting up of concentration camps, and the wholesale extermination of the Ukrainian population - mass executions, burning people alive, etc that Hitler's armies carried out in the former Soviet Union.

Hitler's armies rolled relentlessly east, annihilating as much as they could in their path. The war in Ukraine is a war of attrition, often characterised by stalemates, and ever slow progress on either side. It does not bear any resemblance to the Nazi invasion of the ex Soviet Union.

And likewise, the geopolitical issues are vastly different.

So because Russia has done worse than they had hoped, that means we throw their intent and actions out the window (seems like a Putin thing to do).

Playing loose with logic here.

 

[Chief]

This was an appeal to Russian nationalism, and yes was an inflammatory remark.

Nationalism? Not at all like Hitler?

But it did not herald the setting up of concentration camps,

I suppose filtration camps aren't concentration camps... Maybe.

and the wholesale extermination of the Ukrainian population

Why totally exterminate when you can:

• kill their culture and language
• dismember their communities
• export the population
• scatter their population around Russia
• abduct and brainwash their children
• replace the population with Russians
• kill anyone who resists.

Sounds like extermination to me.

- mass executions,

Yes this has happened.

burning people alive, etc

Yes that has happened.

that Hitler's armies carried out in the former Soviet Union.

Mass graves found.

Streets full of dead civilians.

Russian soldiers telling of involvement in rape, torture, murder of civilians. Sharing videos of themselves doing it.

This is all documented.

 

[Andre]

Russian military losses in WW2 were double Germanies, who were fighting a 2 front war, and in Africa, Greece, and Italy.

It was absolutely meatwave tactics, built on an utter disregard for human life.

Nothing's changed it seems.

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Exactly. "If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." IlovethePies this was Zhukov, not some Capitalist Western shill on the USSR's WW2 tactics. Meat wave has always been Russia's preferred tactics. It failed miserably in WW1, it succeeded (eventually) in WW2 as Lend Lease kicked in and the German's were fighting on too many fronts.

It's quite possible to realise the Nazi's were the worst of two bad options between them and Russia and still see that with the same number of resources and men, they were the best performed military in WW2. Hitler picking too many fights, before the current ones were finished was their downfall.

 

[Zidane98]

Mass graves dug by Russian invaders around Mariupol:




Many of those Russian speaking Ukranian citizens too. Their crime - being Ukranian in Ukraine and not wanting to be ruled by fascist Russian invaders who have absolutely no right to be in their city.

 

[Zidane98]

 

[Aussie in exile]

Russian military losses in WW2 were double Germanies, who were fighting a 2 front war, and in Africa, Greece, and Italy.

It was absolutely meatwave tactics, built on an utter disregard for human life.

Nothing's changed it seems.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Exactly and that's why over 600,000 Russian have lost their lives for Liitle legs ego

 

[IlovethePies]

Nationalism? Not at all like Hitler?


I suppose filtration camps aren't concentration camps... Maybe.


Why totally exterminate when you can:

• kill their culture and language
• dismember their communities
• export the population
• scatter their population around Russia
• abduct and brainwash their children
• replace the population with Russians
• kill anyone who resists.

Sounds like extermination to me.


Yes this has happened.


Yes that has happened.


Mass graves found.

Streets full of dead civilians.

Russian soldiers telling of involvement in rape, torture, murder of civilians. Sharing videos of themselves doing it.

This is all documented.

 

[IlovethePies]

It is documented by Ukrainian news sources and pro-Ukrainian bloggers.
If i wanted to prove that Russian forces had committed no war crimes, I would quote /Russian bloggers and Russian news sources.

I have already explained that Putin's invasion was reactionary and criminal. When a war is criminal, it is inevitable that violent and horrific war crimes will be carried out.

But nothing in the role of the Russian army in Ukraine today resembles the barbarism and homicidal destruction carried out by the Wehrmacht in Operation Barbarossa.

 

[Chief]

It is documented by Ukrainian news sources and pro-Ukrainian bloggers.

There were videos on Telegram ya plonker.

 

[IlovethePies]

There were videos on Telegram ya plonker.

Ukrainian channels are on Telegram, plonker

 

[IlovethePies]

Nationalism? Not at all like Hitler?

And Zelensky doesn't play the nationalist card??

Tell me what government in the world doesn't play the national card

Obviously being a moderator here does not require knowledge of the topic under discussion.

 

[Chief]

And Zelensky doesn't play the nationalist card??

Tends to happen when you're getting bombed.

Ukraine is no model of liberal, democratic freedoms. They have their own Nazi problems, no doubt.

No reason to pretend that Russia hasn't brought about all of this pain, death and destruction off their own bat. No reason to pretend Zelensky and Putin are indistinguishable from each other.

 

[Chief]

Obviously being a moderator here does not require knowledge of the topic under discussion.

FFS dude. You set out the attributes of Hitler/the Nazis!

I showed you how Putin and his attack on Ukraine matches exactly those attributes.

In response you're pretending that publicly verified facts are wrong.

Why? You're not convincing a single soul.

 

[IlovethePies]

FFS dude. You set out the attributes of Hitler/the Nazis!

I showed you how Putin and his attack on Ukraine matches exactly those attributes.

In response you're pretending that publicly verified facts are wrong.

Why? You're not convincing a single soul.

a) You showed me that you know how to find pro-Ukrainian propagandists and pro-Ukrainian news sources
b) They are not publicly verified facts. They are promoted by the above news sources.
c) You have no understanding of what the Nazis carried out against the Soviet Union, and the comparison of what they did with what the Russian army is doing, quite frankly, is obscene.
The only genuine comparison is that of comparing what the Nazis did in the Soviet Union with what Israel is currently carrying out in Gaza.
d) If you mean by a "single soul" you and your armada of cronies, I don''t care. I am not looking to convince you.

 

[Chief]

You showed me that you know how to find pro-Ukrainian propagandists and pro-Ukrainian news sources

Blah blah blah