Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Bloods86]

None of the above is true, but I will highlight your reference to "Russian animals" which says everything one needs to know about where you are coming from politically. Whether you are aware of it or not, you are articulating the views of Ukrainian neo-nazism.

Your complete denial of Russian military actions and misrepresentation (again) of others posting undercuts your argument that you're not just pro Putin/Russia at all costs.

You can't even pretend to have concern for the Ukrainian working class who are the majority of the victims in this conflict, when it means you would have to be critical of the imperialist invaders and occupiers.

Much like claims of US/NATO provoking Russia into war, seems a bit fraudulent.

Maybe it's unintentional and you had good intentions of supporting the working class, but you may want to examine where your sources have led you.

 

[IlovethePies]

Your complete denial of Russian military actions and misrepresentation (again) of others posting undercuts your argument that you're not just pro Putin/Russia at all costs.

You can't even pretend to have concern for the Ukrainian working class who are the majority of the victims in this conflict, when it means you would have to be critical of the imperialist invaders and occupiers.

Much like claims of US/NATO provoking Russia into war, seems a bit fraudulent.

Maybe it's unintentional and you had good intentions of supporting the working class, but you may want to examine where your sources have led you.

a) I do not deny that Russian soldiers have carried out atrocities. War is hell, and makes atrocities inevitable. Can you with a straight face deny that Ukrainian forces have carried out atrocities as well?

b) I am deeply concerned about the Ukrainian working class. They need to understand that the Zelensky dictatorship is sending them into the slaughterhouse to die for Ukrainian oligarcs' profit interests and for the geostrategic interests of US imperialism.
Likewise, I am deeply concerned about the Russian working class, which is being sent to the slaughterhouse by Putin for the interests of those sections of the Russian financial oligarchy who aim to preserve their wealth by cutting a "fair deal" with US imperialism
The only way to stop this war is by the Ukrainian and Russian working class to understand what this war is about, and on this basis unite to overthrow their real class enemies: both the Putin dictatorship and the Zelensky dictatorship.

c) as for the US/NATO provoking this war: this is well documented provided that you are willing to read independent sources of information and think critically.

d) Who am I misrepresenting? If you are referring to my comment re Zidane above, there is absolutely nothing untrue in what I said. His views are those of extreme right wing Ukrainian nationalists.

 

[Bloods86]

a) I do not deny that Russian soldiers have carried out atrocities. War is hell, and makes atrocities inevitable. Can you with a straight face deny that Ukrainian forces have carried out atrocities as well?

b) I am deeply concerned about the Ukrainian working class. They need to understand that the Zelensky dictatorship is sending them into the slaughterhouse to die for Ukrainian oligarcs' profit interests and for the geostrategic interests of US imperialism.
Likewise, I am deeply concerned about the Russian working class, which is being sent to the slaughterhouse by Putin for the interests of those sections of the Russian financial oligarchy who aim to preserve their wealth by cutting a "fair deal" with US imperialism
The only way to stop this war is by the Ukrainian and Russian working class to understand what this war is about, and on this basis unite to overthrow their real class enemies: both the Putin dictatorship and the Zelensky dictatorship.

c) as for the US/NATO provoking this war: this is well documented provided that you are willing to read independent sources of information and think critically.

d) Who am I misrepresenting? If you are referring to my comment re Zidane above, there is absolutely nothing untrue in what I said. His views are those of extreme right wing Ukrainian nationalists.

Well I'll give you full marks for inconsistency I guess.

I would be surprised if there weren't Ukrainian soldiers who have committed horrible atrocities.

It does appear that targeting civilians, dehumanising POWs and ethnic cleansing of colonised territory is an official, key aim of Putin/Russia in this conflict though.

The fact that you label Ukraine as a dictatorship, and in the same breath as Putin, says it all really. You may want to try some of that critical thinking yourself.

You misrepresented the comments which were clearly directed at Russian soldiers carrying out atrocities, not Russians in general. You denounced it all as untrue, including that Russians had committed those atrocities. If you didn't mean it, don't say it.

 

[IlovethePies]

Well I'll give you full marks for inconsistency I guess.

I would be surprised if there weren't Ukrainian soldiers who have committed horrible atrocities.

It does appear that targeting civilians, dehumanising POWs and ethnic cleansing of colonised territory is an official, key aim of Putin/Russia in this conflict though.

The fact that you label Ukraine as a dictatorship, and in the same breath as Putin, says it all really. You may want to try some of that critical thinking yourself.

You misrepresented the comments which were clearly directed at Russian soldiers carrying out atrocities, not Russians in general. You denounced it all as untrue, including that Russians had committed those atrocities. If you didn't mean it, don't say it.

I will reply to other points in this response later, but I am truly astonished by your claim of "inconsistency".everything I wrote above is consistent with everything else I have written, and I have meant every word I said. Please point out specifically the "inconsistency" you are referring to.

 

[IlovethePies]

Finally, do you think a man with an AK45 in Ukraine who regards Russian soldiers as animals is going to distinguish between Russian soldiers who commit atrocities, and those who don't?
Or between them, and male Russian speaking civilians in Donbass?
Of course there are atrocities, on both sides.
What i have repeatedly said that is untrue is the likening of Putin's invasion of Ukraine to the murderous and destructive frenzy unleashed by Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union.

 

[Zidane98]

a) I do not deny that Russian soldiers have carried out atrocities. War is hell, and makes atrocities inevitable. Can you with a straight face deny that Ukrainian forces have carried out atrocities as well?

There are no actions by Ukraine , its government or its people that justify Russia's invasion whatsover. Atrocities are not inevitable either.

b) I am deeply concerned about the Ukrainian working class. They need to understand that the Zelensky dictatorship

Zelensky absolutely is not a dicttator - this is pure Kremlin disinformation 101.

is sending them into the slaughterhouse to die for Ukrainian oligarcs' profit interests

No Zelensky is not doing this. If Ukranians stop fighting - there won't be a Ukraine left. If Russia stops fighting - the war stops and it will be just fine. Zelensky has no choice while Putin has a clear choice.

and for the geostrategic interests of US imperialism.

Here we go again with Kremlin disinformation. Ukraine has its own government with its own people determining its own future. Not the US and not Russia.

Likewise, I am deeply concerned about the Russian working class, which is being sent to the slaughterhouse by Putin for the interests of those sections of the Russian financial oligarchy who aim to preserve their wealth by cutting a "fair deal" with US imperialism

It's not about the interests of oligarchs. Most of them have suffered enormously due to Putin's absolutely unjustified and immoral invasion of a peaceful neighbor. The only ones that have done well out of it are the ones that serve the military industry.

The only way to stop this war is by the Ukrainian and Russian working class to understand what this war is about, and on this basis unite to overthrow their real class enemies: both the Putin dictatorship and the Zelensky dictatorship.

The way out for Putin is to accept there will be no new Russian empire. Focus on his own state and the few states left that he can count as allies. Withdraw completely from Ukraine - pay reparations with a view to eventually building a bilateral relationship in the future.

c) as for the US/NATO provoking this war: this is well documented provided that you are willing to read independent sources of information and think critically.

This has been debunked many, many times over. This line of argument 100% is Kremlin disinformation.

d) Who am I misrepresenting? If you are referring to my comment re Zidane above, there is absolutely nothing untrue in what I said. His views are those of extreme right wing Ukrainian nationalists.

Misrepresentation 101 right here tovarisch. My concern is the people of Ukraine and the path they have chosen which is no longer to be a puppet state subjugated to the interests of Russia. It comes as no surprise that you view Ukrainians rejecting Russian subjugation is a from of extreme right wing nationalism. Once again you mirror exactly Kremlin disnformation almost to a tee on this very topic.

 

[Bloods86]

I will reply to other points in this response later, but I am truly astonished by your claim of "inconsistency".everything I wrote above is consistent with everything else I have written, and I have meant every word I said. Please point out specifically the "inconsistency" you are referring to.

Your astonishment has completely convinced me to believe you in future. My apologies.

But seriously, in response to a post about Russian atrocities against Ukrainians you said "None of the above is true".

It was either an unconscious reflex based on the predispositions you've built up, based on sources that are at least charitable to Russia in ways they are certainly not for Ukraine, US, NATO etc... or you believe it, and realise that would sound bad, so you're now walking it back.

 

[Zidane98]

Your astonishment has completely convinced me to believe you in future. My apologies.

But seriously, in response to a post about Russian atrocities against Ukrainians you said "None of the above is true".

It was either an unconscious reflex based on the predispositions you've built up, based on sources that are at least charitable to Russia in ways they are certainly not for Ukraine, US, NATO etc... or you believe it, and realise that would sound bad, so you're now walking it back.

Or a response reading off a script.

 

[IlovethePies]

Your astonishment has completely convinced me to believe you in future. My apologies.

But seriously, in response to a post about Russian atrocities against Ukrainians you said "None of the above is true".

It was either an unconscious reflex based on the predispositions you've built up, based on sources that are at least charitable to Russia in ways they are certainly not for Ukraine, US, NATO etc... or you believe it, and realise that would sound bad, so you're now walking it back.

Yeah you are right, I should be much more specific in my responses and pay much closer attention to detail. When I said "none of the above is true" I was pointing to the general line it was taking. I should always be highly specific. I take your point.

 

[Zidane98]

Some in Russian military circles seem to be finally getting it.



The questions is when will Putin get it? Going to take either another Wagner style revolt or 1 million plus casualties it seems to stop him.

 

[IlovethePies]

Some in Russian military circles seem to be finally getting it.



The questions is when will Putin get it? Going to take either another Wagner style revolt or 1 million plus casualties it seems to stop him.

So now you are quoting NAFO twitter accounts and yet still believe you should be taken seriously!

 

[Zidane98]

So now you are quoting NAFO twitter accounts and yet still believe you should be taken seriously!

NAFO accounts are always a bit of good fun taking the piss out of Russian imperialists. I'm sure you agree....

 

[IlovethePies]

This two part series elaborates the historical origins of Ukrainian nationalism, explaining it's deep historical connection with fascist ideology from the 1920's and into our current times:

Nationalism and fascism in Ukraine: A historical overview

The collaboration of Germany and the US with Ukrainian fascists has historical precedents reaching back 100 years.

www.wsws.org

It is not "Russian propaganda", but is written from the standpoint of opposition both to fascism and to Stalinism. The Putin and Zelensky regimes are both products of the Stalinist dissolution of the Soviet Union and the restoration of capitalism.

 

[wannabejack]

This two part series elaborates the historical origins of Ukrainian nationalism, explaining it's deep historical connection with fascist ideology from the 1920's and into our current times:

Nationalism and fascism in Ukraine: A historical overview

The collaboration of Germany and the US with Ukrainian fascists has historical precedents reaching back 100 years.

www.wsws.org

It is not "Russian propaganda", but is written from the standpoint of opposition both to fascism and to Stalinism. The Putin and Zelensky regimes are both products of the Stalinist dissolution of the Soviet Union and the restoration of capitalism.

Some articles from the authors and WSWS

Another unbiased article by Clara Weiss 18/08/2024

Ukraine continues offensive inside Russia

Whatever the immediate military and political calculations behind the incursion, its underlying strategy and goals reveal the imperialist character of the war waged by the US and NATO against Russia.

www.wsws.org

Whatever the immediate military and political calculations behind the incursion, its underlying strategy and goals reveal the imperialist character of the war waged by the imperialist powers against Russia. NATO deliberately provoked the invasion by the Putin regime in order to use Ukraine as a staging ground for a much broader war whose ultimate goal is the carve-up of the entire region.

russia started the war (“special military operation”)!
“NATO is a defensive Alliance that does not seek confrontation”. Those who believe russian propaganda will dispute this.

Another unbiased article by Konrad Kreft, Clara Weiss• 10 June 2014

https://archive.md/uNQMX

The German ruling class seized upon the coup as a pretext for aggressively stepping up its campaign to remilitarize and justify the crimes of fascist forces. For the first time since the end of World War II, representatives of a German government were seen on photos with avowed Ukrainian neo-Nazis.

If you check out the article there is no photo(s). Surely the authors could have added at least one photo.

 

[jatz14]

Some articles from the authors and WSWS

Another unbiased article by Clara Weiss 18/08/2024

Ukraine continues offensive inside Russia

Whatever the immediate military and political calculations behind the incursion, its underlying strategy and goals reveal the imperialist character of the war waged by the US and NATO against Russia.

www.wsws.org

Whatever the immediate military and political calculations behind the incursion, its underlying strategy and goals reveal the imperialist character of the war waged by the imperialist powers against Russia. NATO deliberately provoked the invasion by the Putin regime in order to use Ukraine as a staging ground for a much broader war whose ultimate goal is the carve-up of the entire region.

russia started the war (“special military operation”)!
“NATO is a defensive Alliance that does not seek confrontation”. Those who believe russian propaganda will dispute this.

Another unbiased article by Konrad Kreft, Clara Weiss• 10 June 2014

https://archive.md/uNQMX

The German ruling class seized upon the coup as a pretext for aggressively stepping up its campaign to remilitarize and justify the crimes of fascist forces. For the first time since the end of World War II, representatives of a German government were seen on photos with avowed Ukrainian neo-Nazis.

If you check out the article there is no photo(s). Surely the authors could have added at least one photo.

It's just nonsense.

As I said, take the nuttiest far right news sources. When you come across people that gets their views solely from those sources, it's obvious. The things they are convinced are established facts, the non logical, logical arguments that they present, convinced they are zingers.

This is like that. Take a world view, make the world fit. Call anyone not on board biased.

It's like debating a flat earther.

It's sad.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[IlovethePies]

It's just nonsense.

As I said, take the nuttiest far right news sources. When you come across people that gets their views solely from those sources, it's obvious. The things they are convinced are established facts, the non logical, logical arguments that they present, convinced they are zingers.

This is like that. Take a world view, make the world fit. Call anyone not on board biased.

It's like debating a flat earther.

It's sad.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

When Copernicus put forward his conception of a heliocentric universe, all those who agreed with him suffered persecution at the hands of the inquisition.

Following on from there, today we see the forces of the status quo label a scientific, class based analysis of capitalism as "flat earthism".

History repeats, but not exactly in the same way. That means it is a cycloid, rather than a Ferris wheel.

 

[Chief]

When Copernicus put forward his conception of a heliocentric universe, all those who agreed with him suffered persecution at the hands of the inquisition.

Following on from there, today we see the forces of the status quo label a scientific, class based analysis of capitalism as "flat earthism".

History repeats, but not exactly in the same way. That means it is a cycloid, rather than a Ferris wheel.

"A genius was persecuted. I see myself as persecuted. I am a genius."

 

[SaintsSeptember]

When Copernicus put forward his conception of a heliocentric universe, all those who agreed with him suffered persecution at the hands of the inquisition.

Following on from there, today we see the forces of the status quo label a scientific, class based analysis of capitalism as "flat earthism".

History repeats, but not exactly in the same way. That means it is a cycloid, rather than a Ferris wheel.

One is based on actual science.
The other is based on bullshit categorisation and behaviour prediction of people who are actually all individuals.