Rumour Bluemour Discussion XXXV - 'Loopy' Season has begun

[CaptainCharisma]

Seems to be whispers around the interwebs that JSOS has or is about to re-sign. Anyone heard anything more concrete than vague tweets?

 

[JustaBattler]

Not at all. It's the opposite.
Looking for the best 'team', not squeezing in players.

I'm up front about my biases Stamos - I like mongrel. Mongrel wins games. Can't win a final against other teams full of mongrels if you have less mongrel.
Happy for anyone anytime to challenge my bias - even happier that Carlton finally has a coach who understands the primacy of winning the contested game.

 

[Kruezing]

I'm up front about my biases Stamos - I like mongrel. Mongrel wins games. Can't win a final against other teams full of mongrels if you have less mongrel.
Happy for anyone anytime to challenge my bias - even happier that Carlton finally has a coach who understands the primacy of winning the contested game.

Our coach is the king of all mongrels so I reckon we’re good

 

[JustaBattler]

Our coach is the king of all mongrels so I reckon we’re good

100%

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Norf have offered a fairly lucrative deal (money wise) for Fisher, one I suspect will be too good for him to turn down (source herald sun)

 

[gbatman]

No you're not removing a player and yes, of course it's horses for courses.

GH played at HB a lot at Sydney, with distinction.

Noting these days the lines between HB, mid, wing, HF are pretty blurred.

MK hasn't played forward this season - probably should have frankly. Hopefully will.

It's well know he's terrific overhead and a very good shot at goal (far better than JSOS by quite a margin).

Voss erred in playing him at HB earlier this season, that was daft.

Cripps very able to spend time forward too (big, big unit, tough match up).

I'd back GH or Bam Bam against Libba any day of the week in speed. No one ever blabs on about him being slow....

It's simply wrong to say the midfield is unbalanced with those three in the 22.

It's how they're used that is the key.

Yes you are removing a player. If you move Hewett to the backline someone has to come out. He's not a better half back than who we have there.

I don't see them as blurred. Half back is pretty similar to wing but in no way are all the roles that similar.

Kennedy hasn't played forward a lot this season but he has rested there at times. Again this was an issue with us last season and early this season not rotating any of the forward through the middle. I think he potentially could relieve Martin up forward as a medium forward but he's nowhere near as good nor does he have the tools that Martin has. But who does.

Kennedy and Hewett are similar but not the same. Kennedy is a better kick and overhead mark and more impactful as a forward. Hewett is a better pure midfielder. I would not play either at half back, we have very good half backs on our list and there is no way we should push any of them out just to fit an extra midfielder in the team. Horses for courses.

Cripps strangely has not spent a great deal of time forward this season. I think again we have gone for more leg speed and ground level pressure which you won't get from any of the three big bodied mids. Goals yes, pressure not so much. I wouldn't want to see Fogarty or Cuningham who apply a heap of pressure and have better closing speed playing a forward role just to squeeze an extra midfielder into the team who won't bring those qualities to the forward line.

Yes I would back those guys over Libba for speed as well, none of them are quick midfielders. Definitely a role for slower heavier mids in the game just as there is for big pure rucks, big forwards big defenders etc but you can't have too many of them because you do lose run and will get burnt on the outside when the game is in open play.

You pick those three in the same team you have three mids who are one way runners and we get burnt on the outside and burnt on the defence. The game is far more open and outside than it was 2 or 3 years ago. Less numbers around the ball, less congestion the emphasis is more on breaking away from stoppages to generate scores and fast play, players with agility and closing speed to apply pressure and because the ball is going up and down the ground at a faster speed, quicker legs to be able to get ahead of the play faster.

Before we had our winning streak and were bottom 4 quality, this was our biggest issue. We were getting smashed by sides who had fast leg speed and moved the ball quickly and directly. We have made changes to bring in more leg speed over the board. We have gone a lot quicker in the middle, defence and up forward and have not played all three in the same side and have had this big winning streak. The other thing we have done is not demanded our big slow blokes run both ways. You get them trying to run defensively and getting too deep, they aren't there for the attack so we compromise there which is fine but you can't have too many mids with a license to not run too hard defensively.

What I am taking away from this and what I am learning from our winning streak is that high effort, his speed, hard tackline and fast direct ball movement with plenty of leg speed in the team is what has been winning games as opposed to negative, slow ball movement, being too slow over the field and not having enough players with the speed to run both ways when the play is fast. Our balance is a lot better and I think that going slower will take us backwards. Think we should stick with what has been working for us and the sample size that has all 3 in the team V the sample size that has 2 and we play an extra quicker mid suggests we would be too slow and lose two way run if we played all three.

 

[Aphrodite]

Norf have offered a fairly lucrative deal (money wise) for Fisher, one I suspect will be too good for him to turn down (source herald sun)

Money not mentioned, only term (up to 5 years)

https://archive.md/wOIoj

Zac Fisher could sign a deal of up to five seasons at North Melbourne as the Blues prepare to haggle on an upcoming trade.
Fisher has been in slashing form after being recast as a Blues defender in the past three weeks and still has two seasons on his current contract on a good deal of between $400,000-$500,000.

It means the Roos would have to offer him a long-term deal to twist his arm to move given he will be leaving for opportunities but not on-field success.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Money not mentioned, only term (up to 5 years)

https://archive.md/wOIoj

Oh right. My mistake..

Still if we can get one of North's 2nd round picks for Fish, that would be a fantastic result for us !

 

[Banga19]

I think that article is incorrect in saying that North hold Adelaide's 2nd rounder, they dont have a 2nd. Seems that their 3rd would be on offer.

I think a little while ago it was reported that we'd try to facilitate a trade and get Fisher to another club, but now he has some form, a new role (and is contracted) he has a little more value. But I can't seeing us play hard ball if he wanted to leave, and that's some pretty good job security

 

[gbatman]

I don’t disagree with rotations at all, it’s been a key. It’s the personnel I disagree with - centre rotations latest games
Doc 11-0, 8-1, 9-0, 18-1 46-2 - 4%
Cun 4-0 4-0 4-0 7-0 19-0 0%
Fog 4-1 2-0 4-1 10-2 20%
Yes they provide defensive pressure, but so would anyone else in that position.
Kills me when I see them line up at CB & the talk Doc that makes our mids better.
Amazing footballer but he is a liability at CB
Dow 6-3, 15-3, 15-4 6-3 (3/3 q4 last week) 56/14 25%
Hew 17-0, 18-1,15-1, 21-2 71/4 5.6%
Crippa 22-2, 18-1, 15-1, 16-2, 23-2 79/9 12.5%

We have taken some big scalps with this setup though. Melbourne and Collingwood in decent form suggests there is more to it. I think if it's winning football games and we are beating top sides then it has to be working better than numbers suggest.

I've liked the footy Docherty has been playing in the middle for us in the absence of Cerra and Walsh.

Fogarty was really good against Melbourne and Cuningham was really good against St Kilda so they have stepped up when they have had to. I don't think we can say anyone else would apply the same defensive pressure. A few months back we had others in those positions not applying the same defensive pressure.

These guys don't have to go into the CB and play at the same level as Cripps, Hewett, Walsh and Cerra. They just have to apply pressure, halve or win contests and absorb some midfield time while our main mids get a rest. If they get clearances and get hands on the ball that is a bonus. Whatever they are doing we are winning games with it.

It would be nice if they did play at a higher level in there but that's a rare quality. I don't think many other teams have change mids who are a whole lot better.

 

[Stamos]

I'm up front about my biases Stamos - I like mongrel. Mongrel wins games. Can't win a final against other teams full of mongrels if you have less mongrel.
Happy for anyone anytime to challenge my bias - even happier that Carlton finally has a coach who understands the primacy of winning the contested game.

Mongrel is an important factor certainly, but it's not the only one.
No point having the most mongrel at the contest if you get completely opened up after it.
Or if you can't hit a target etc.

 

[reubsblues]

Norf have offered a fairly lucrative deal (money wise) for Fisher, one I suspect will be too good for him to turn down (source herald sun)

He's contracted so pick 2 come at me

 

[macky99]

First post - enjoying this discussion.
We tend to have one back/fwd/wing/mid rotation, obviously during the game players may pinch hit in different roles when required but since Voss took over that's what we have done.
7 Forwards
7 Defenders
3 Wings
4 Midfielders

Cripps, Cerra, Walsh are locks for the midfield. Hewett and Kennedy battle out for the fourth and final spot with Hewett getting the nod in my opinion given he is currently in form. Kennedy is the sub and Dow unfortunately misses out but hopefully the VFL plays finals so he can stay in form if required.

Unless Dow has a poor one on Sunday considering Kennedy has not played for approx 7-8 weeks, l don't see this happening.
Also Vfl is finished.

 

[Blue and Blue]

Mongrel is an important factor certainly, but it's not the only one.
No point having the most mongrel at the contest if you get completely opened up after it.
Or if you can't hit a target etc.

Highly skilled super fit mongrels is the go.......
The more the merrier

 

[Flaggers_23]

Unless Dow has a poor one on Sunday considering Kennedy has not played for approx 7-8 weeks, l don't see this happening.
Also Vfl is finished.

I thought our VFL had made the wildcard, my bad. Thought Kennedy would be able to get a game in the VFL before finals.

 

[WyntersGame_]

Probably not the time to test it with finals two weeks away but I think that Kennedy and Hewitt can play in same team it's just about balance of players around them and attempting to limit the amount of time Cripps, Kennedy & Hewitt are at CB together

The three of them in there full time is to one dynamic and slow in my opinion but there are ways to limit or mitigate that.

Kennedy resting HF to me is the obvious choice. Plus bench rotations. But.... as I said probably not the time to test it.

Maybe it gets tested next year. At the moment with the time of year and form of players I think Kennedy just misses out unfortunately. Curse of his injury, lack of VFL games and time of year.

At the moment I think you stick with what is working outside of obvious players e.g Walsh & Cerra.

If other players have poor games then drop them and bring him in e.g Dow.

If you want to play in a finals side this is what happens and the reality of having talent on your list. Not everyone gets to play

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

utter tosh.

He suffered an impact injury.....

which can be made more common and worse with fatigue. A proven notion over a study of over 200 thousand AFL and other Australian sports impact injuries since the late 90s through 2000s. A study that agrees with findings across other sports too. Fatigue greatly increases the risk of impact injuries. It's proven.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

which can be made more common and worse with fatigue. A proven notion over a study of over 200 thousand AFL and other Australian sports impact injuries since the late 90s through 2000s. A study that agrees with findings across other sports too. Fatigue greatly increases the risk of impact injuries. It's proven.

now you're just conflating....

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Not at all. It's the opposite.
Looking for the best 'team', not squeezing in players.

Exactly

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

now you're just conflating....

I'm not making any claims re Kennedy. I am saying you cannot rule fatigue out of it and pretending you know more is.... Well... Not what the data on injury says.

 

[HarryFlashman]

now you're just conflating....

That’s what u do with studies - u gather the evidence & use it to create & justify your conclusion

 

[thylacine60]

First post - enjoying this discussion.
We tend to have one back/fwd/wing/mid rotation, obviously during the game players may pinch hit in different roles when required but since Voss took over that's what we have done.
7 Forwards
7 Defenders
3 Wings
4 Midfielders

Cripps, Cerra, Walsh are locks for the midfield. Hewett and Kennedy battle out for the fourth and final spot with Hewett getting the nod in my opinion given he is currently in form. Kennedy is the sub and Dow unfortunately misses out but hopefully the VFL plays finals so he can stay in form if required.

welcome, abandon all hope, moderator aph has cake in her office, go blues...........

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

Oh right. My mistake..

Still if we can get one of North's 2nd round picks for Fish, that would be a fantastic result for us !

Norf currently don't have a 2nd round pick.

Seems like pretty lazy journalism from Ralphy boy...unless his been choofing the happy weed.

https://archive.md/wOIoj

"Carlton is thrilled with its draft picks from this year — Ollie Henry, Lachie Cowman, Jaxon Binns (unlucky to debut despite excellent VFL form) and project tall Harry Lemmey.

So the Blues will be prepared to trade him for a mid-draft pick given Zac Williams will return from an ACL tear and take up that half back position next year.

North Melbourne doesn’t have its own second-round pick but has Adelaide’s second-rounder."

Last time I looked, Ollie Henry was playing for the Poachers down the Princes Hwy, and who the **** is Lachie Cowman?!?! AND the Cows actually have North's 2nd rounder, not vice versa

Norf currently have picks 1, 16 (first round) 38, 53 (third round). If they are prepared to offer Fish a 5 year deal, they may have to get creative to secure a 2nd rounder, rather that go begging to the AFL for more assistance.

 

[Coona Blues]

Norf have offered a fairly lucrative deal (money wise) for Fisher, one I suspect will be too good for him to turn down (source herald sun)

Fish has fallen out of favour as an outside mid and a small forward in our group and has had a timely resurgence down back. I cannot see him commanding a defensive spot long term with our riches in the small/medium defensive area. Cowan developing and Williams to return.

Norf clearly have a vacancy for a defensive seagull with the departure of Ziebell and Hall, if they give him decent coin and tenure while giving Carlton a decent pick, it is surely a win/win.

Would allow list space and salary cap to retain Jack Silvagni, David Cuningham etc (we are tight in both areas)

 

[David Sylvian]

Norf currently don't have a 2nd round pick.

Seems like pretty lazy journalism from Ralphy boy...unless his been choofing the happy weed.

https://archive.md/wOIoj

Last time I looked, Ollie Henry was playing for the Poachers down the Princes Hwy, and who the **** is Lachie Cowman?!?! AND the Cows actually have North's 2nd rounder, not vice versa

Norf currently have picks 1, 16 (first round) 38, 53 (third round). If they are prepared to offer Fish a 5 year deal, they may have to get creative to secure a 2nd rounder, rather that go begging to the AFL for more assistance.

Definitely choofing the happy weed