Brisbane face another big loss

[FuManchu]

My point is very valid though to your discussion that Players are mercenaries. There are clear examples of players staying at clubs for a lot less than market value. If a club was to start selling out players once they are no longer 100% what the club requires, you would start to have the lack of team loyalty the we see in Soccer, etc.

Respect is a two way street and clubs would know that they have to respect their players or expect some disrespect coming back at them.

sorry, misinterpreted your statement.

I should have qualified, Players are mercenaries when they are not given due recognition, money wise or by some other means, but the marquis players at clubs tend to stay, like Brown. Was he offered a huge back ended contract like Voss?

Matthews has also done some funny thing when players have remotely intimated that they may want to go back south. Like the emotional blackmail he played out in the media with Power. And by all accounts, Power is not altogether happy at Brisbane still. He did the same with Charman this year. Its like he shamed them into staying, what would be the outcome if Power, Charman or Brown played out their contract negotiations in the media?

As I said, the clubs are worse than the players. But at the end of the day, the players play for money first, job security second, the team unit is not always the priority.

Matthews made the statement a year or two back that he was heavily into a rebuilding phase at the club and yet he didnt trade any players of note or trade value. He had the ideal opportunity at the end of 2004 to trade for value, why didnt he?

 

[Le KooK]

Re: Brisbane crowds are falling

If anyone is experienced enough to make that judgement, its you.

*ZING*

no.

BTW BrownDog - How are those $8 tickets going?

 

[Grimreepah]

what would be the outcome if Power, Charman or Brown played out their contract negotiations in the media?

Player managers are often playing these things out in the media.

 

[ChrisFooty]

Re: Brisbane crowds are falling

And the AFL want a 2nd team in QLD now??

Lethal Leigh is spot on...it is far from ready.

Yep, Leigh is 100% correct there.

 

[FuManchu]

Player managers are always playing these things out in the media.

Not to the extent that matthews does, like purposely mentioning it at media conferences and then making inferences to loyalty and how bad it would look if they went elsewhere.

case in point, Freo's Cameron Schwab today when asked about Pavlich, didnt infer anything about disloyalty or the consequences, but talked about the positives of a relationship with player, coach and club ( as cliched as it was). Matthews makes pointed statements, if the players dont make public comments about moving why is he?

 

[notting18]

sorry, misinterpreted your statement.

I should have qualified, Players are mercenaries when they are not given due recognition, money wise or by some other means, but the marquis players at clubs tend to stay, like Brown. Was he offered a huge back ended contract like Voss?

From the fact brisbane don't discuss contracts it is hard to know but no talk ever about back-ending Brown's contract so i would feel it is 600k a year..or there abouts

Matthews made the statement a year or two back that he was heavily into a rebuilding phase at the club and yet he didnt trade any players of note or trade value. He had the ideal opportunity at the end of 2004 to trade for value, why didnt he?

Young players learn a lot by playing, training and learning of champions. Most of the young lions midfielders/defenders will tell you plenty of things learnt from the Voss, Black, Lappin, Brown, Leppitsch group of champions.

Also, when we have young guys who have showed promise like Rischa and Sherman coming out of contract the loyalty we have showed them means they are likely to sign on again and not follow the big bucks to Essendon, etc.

Finally, most of the players that you would've traded 3 years ago who had trade value are still very much contributing to the team at the moment. Lappin has been in our best players the last few games for example.

 

[notting18]

Not to the extent that matthews does, like purposely mentioning it at media conferences and then making inferences to loyalty and how bad it would look if they went elsewhere.

case in point, Freo's Cameron Schwab today when asked about Pavlich, didnt infer anything about disloyalty or the consequences, but talked about the positives of a relationship with player, coach and club ( as cliched as it was). Matthews makes pointed statements, if the players dont make public comments about moving why is he?

Player managers are speaking on behalf of players, so the fact they don't speak personally doesn't mean they are quite. The fact Brown, Power and Charman will be at Brisbane next year will show that nothing that was done by Leigh was that bad......what will you say if Pav leaves?

 

[Grimreepah]

Not to the extent that matthews does, like purposely mentioning it at media conferences and then making inferences to loyalty and how bad it would look if they went elsewhere.

case in point, Freo's Cameron Schwab today when asked about Pavlich, didnt infer anything about disloyalty or the consequences, but talked about the positives of a relationship with player, coach and club ( as cliched as it was). Matthews makes pointed statements, if the players dont make public comments about moving why is he?

I think this only relates to Power, because his comments on Charman were nothing out of the ordinary - 'required player', 'hope he stays' etc. So I disagree with your inference that Leigh is a serial blackmailer.

Why did he say that about Power? Because he wanted him to stay. Leigh could have jumped ship himself, but he wanted to work through the tough times and he wanted his players to stick it out with him.

Perhaps this comes back to the fact that Brisbane has a tough time retaining players, because there is an attraction to Melbourne or home, and we have to fight a bit harder to keep players.

 

[Grimreepah]

Matthews made the statement a year or two back that he was heavily into a rebuilding phase at the club and yet he didnt trade any players of note or trade value. He had the ideal opportunity at the end of 2004 to trade for value, why didnt he?

I have already answered this question, but do you think Collingwood should have traded Buckley at the end of 2003?

 

[FuManchu]

From the fact brisbane don't discuss contracts it is hard to know but no talk ever about back-ending Brown's contract so i would feel it is 600k a year..or there abouts

But the coach is quick to draw inferences about players who may be looking elsewhere. And they do talk about contracts, as they openly asked the AFL for relief for their back ended disaster with Voss.

Young players learn a lot by playing, training and learning of champions. Most of the young lions midfielders will tell you plenty of things learnt from the Voss, Black, Lappin, Brown, Leppitsch group of champions.

Give me some quotes. If you believe Matthews is any good as a coach, then he can also impart the same knowledge to young players.

Also, when we have young guys who have showed promise like Rischa and Sherman coming out of contract the loyalty we have showed them means they are likely to sign on again and not follow the big bucks to Essendon, etc.

You can't guarantee any of that, just because one or two have resisted, others may not, especially if they see better dollars and team success elsewhere. No-one, you and I included, can guarantee any player will stay anywhere. The bottom line is that they will see clubs trade at the drop of a hat, so why should they display more loyalty?

Finally, most of the players that you would've traded 3 years ago who had trade value are still very much contributing to the team at the moment. Lappin has been in our best players the last few games for example.

My point is multi faceted:

The first is that Brisbane are in a unique situation, they really need to be successful on-field to maintain a good balance sheet more than most others due to their very thin active supporter base here (in Brisbane). Active player trading is probably the best way they are going to maintain a healthy balance sheet. But Brisbane havent traded much at all.

Those players at the end of 2004, if traded could have gone a long way to ensuring a quicker return to the top. Those players like Lappin, will not see Brisbane challenge for the top again. They could have bought Brisbane some damn fine young talent.

If you think that is harsh, so too are the survival requirements of any club. I posed the question to a saints supporter the other day. I asked if you were guaranteed a flag this year, would you get rid of Harvey as the price you had to pay. ( he said no, silly him). Clubs are making those sort of assessments every year. Collingwood will be doing it with Buckley. Trading is no different and there shouldnt be any sacred cows holding the club back. Holding a list together for the sake of morale is not entirely the most practical reason.

 

[FuManchu]

I have already answered this question, but do you think Collingwood should have traded Buckley at the end of 2003?

good question, perhaps they should have, or even considered retiring him

 

[FuManchu]

Player managers are speaking on behalf of players, so the fact they don't speak personally doesn't mean they are quite. The fact Brown, Power and Charman will be at Brisbane next year will show that nothing that was done by Leigh was that bad......what will you say if Pav leaves?

Unless you ask the players if they are content at Brisbane, is is speculation

I'd say catch ya to pav. Freo always knew there was some yearning to go home, it has been speculated for years

 

[Grimreepah]

And they do talk about contracts, as they openly asked the AFL for relief for their back ended disaster with Voss.

No they didn't. And it's not a disaster.

 

[LuckyLuke]

Re: Brisbane crowds are falling

Where did the Reds come in the S14? Dead last? The same place where the Broncos have been for a large part of the season? Yeah...

Didn't the broncos win the final last year? So wouldn't the coud numbers be up on the back of that success?

Pfft.

Yet another valuable addition to a debate by GOB. Well done champ.

 

[FuManchu]

No they didn't. And it's not a disaster.

paying someone match payments who is retired is a disaster And they used the media to put their point about relief.

 

[Le KooK]

Re: Brisbane crowds are falling

In regards to the OP - I can assume that since this Lions match was classified as a Melbourne 'home' fixture, the Lions won't be counting that crowd figure towards their 'official' crowd average for the year?

And some people have the nerve to try and claim other clubs crowd figures are 'artificial'....

 

[Grimreepah]

paying someone match payments who is retired is a disaster

Again you are looking at things in isolation and ignoring the bigger picture, which includes premiership glory.

And they used the media to put their point about relief.

That is just nonsense.

 

[notting18]

But the coach is quick to draw inferences about players who may be looking elsewhere. And they do talk about contracts, as they openly asked the AFL for relief for their back ended disaster with Voss.

Openly asked the AFL? They are open with the AFL with all contracts, they have to be! They do not on the other hand confirm or deny that players are contracted for x years on y dollars.

Give me some quotes. If you believe Matthews is any good as a coach, then he can also impart the same knowledge to young players.

Too be honest i really can't be bothered going through all the quotes -> Go to Roster Watch on the lions board and you will see most interviews have been compiled - but they have said similar things. Matthews is able to help as coach but it is definitely a different approach to be playing alongside quality players. If it helps and Matthews coaching helps - why not have both

You can't guarantee any of that, just because one or two have resisted, others may not, especially if they see better dollars and team success elsewhere. No-one, you and I included, can guarantee any player will stay anywhere. The bottom line is that they will see clubs trade at the drop of a hat, so why should they display more loyalty?

Of course you can't guarantee anything, but we are differing on the basis of the argument. You are saying clubs will trade players at the drop of a hat, but i have showed you examples where players have been kept at Brisbane because of promise/ability to still perform at the top level - Lappin, Brennan, etc. So if you showed loyalty your players will be loyal - Rischa is at the lions for a lot less than his home town club/team he grew up supporting offered him last year!

My point is multi faceted:

The first is that Brisbane are in a unique situation, they really need to be successful on-field to maintain a good balance sheet more than most others due to their very thin active supporter base here (in Brisbane). Active player trading is probably the best way they are going to maintain a healthy balance sheet. But Brisbane havent traded much at all.

Those players at the end of 2004, if traded could have gone a long way to ensuring a quicker return to the top. Those players like Lappin, will not see Brisbane challenge for the top again. They could have bought Brisbane some damn fine young talent.

If you think that is harsh, so too are the survival requirements of any club. I posed the question to a saints supporter the other day. I asked if you were guaranteed a flag this year, would you get rid of Harvey as the price you had to pay. ( he said no, silly him). Clubs are making those sort of assessments every year. Collingwood will be doing it with Buckley. Trading is no different and there shouldnt be any sacred cows holding the club back. Holding a list together for the sake of morale is not entirely the most practical reason.

Brisbane did move on players who probably thought they could play on a little further, like Keating, B Scott, McRae, etc - no players are given an open license to play. I think we differ on the basis of success, plenty of teams have suceeded on the back of not just skill, but a team loyalty, etc. Brisbane, Port Adelaide, Kangaroos, Sydney, etc are examples of teams who have won a lot of the recent premierships largely due to their team spirit as well.

 

[notting18]

paying someone match payments who is retired is a disaster And they used the media to put their point about relief.

The media reported the story, the lions discussed it behind closed doors with the AFL.....I don't know many lions supporters who are not happy for Voss to have his 900k this year - and really too some extent how we spend our money is our problem.

 

[ALwaysNorth]

because he didnt play out his contract.he is not playing now and taking a spot on the roster that a young kid could have

How much is Buckley getting paid this year ? what does it work out per game played ?

For what it is worth , I believe Brisbane should have given more to the old Fitzroy fans over the years . They pointedly refused to allow Brisbane to play in the (most recent) Fitzroy jersey when they were on top because they didn't want to put offside their Brisbane supporter base , now that supporter numbers are down they are talking about playing in that Fitzroy jersey very time they play in Melbourne to try and boost Victorian supporter numbers.

I can not believe Brisbane supporters would have begrudged the Fitzroy jersey getting a airing during this time , but it was obviously seen as lessening the Brisbane Lions Brand . While I am at it - playing the old Fitzroy and Bears songs amid the continous playing of the Lions version during the post grand final celebrations would have been nice to see\hear as a salute to where they had come from .

I am a Queenslander and North Melbourne supporter but prefer watching games live on a warm Queensland afternoon rather than a cool Saturday night , but thats just my preference and I am sure the research shows Saturday nights are the best time slot for Brisbane home games and North's Coast games .

 

[beatnik]

FuManchu

you have stated the obvious and when people agreed with you, you have repeated yourself endlessly: the lions took a gamble etc etc drone drone drone

you remind me of my menopausal aunt - she can argue for hours even when no-one disagrees with her

yes...we knowingly brought on several years of 'drought' to have a shot at history...as you yourself have noted, most clubs would have done exactly the same thing...so...wtf is your point?

or is it merely to engage the lions board on this umbrella topic and then try to sneak in a series of unrelated cheap shots? ...cos that's all i'm seeing

 

[mr_cellotape]

For what it is worth , I believe Brisbane should have given more to the old Fitzroy fans over the years . They pointedly refused to allow Brisbane to play in the (most recent) Fitzroy jersey when they were on top because they didn't want to put offside their Brisbane supporter base ... While I am at it - playing the old Fitzroy and Bears songs amid the continous playing of the Lions version during the post grand final celebrations would have been nice to see\hear as a salute to where they had come from.

The name of the team: "Brisbane Lions". Their home city: Brisbane. Why would they reference Fitzroy at all? This whole idea of placating a dud Melbourne team that couldn't handle the games' shift into the professional era is stupid and boring. No-one is their right mind cares.

 

[FuManchu]

Re: Brisbane crowds are falling

The Lions are dropping but i wouldnt worry about that too much, i am sure the Lions hierarchy have a plan in place to attract members.

I doubt it. Short of being artificially propped up permanently at the top of the ladder, no-one, the AFL included can drag numbers thru the gates.

 

[FuManchu]

FuManchu

you have stated the obvious and when people agreed with you, you have repeated yourself endlessly: the lions took a gamble etc etc drone drone drone

you remind me of my menopausal aunt - she can argue for hours even when no-one disagrees with her

yes...we knowingly brought on several years of 'drought' to have a shot at history...as you yourself have noted, most clubs would have done exactly the same thing...so...wtf is your point?

or is it merely to engage the lions board on this umbrella topic and then try to sneak in a series of unrelated cheap shots? ...cos that's all i'm seeing

So this is the brisbane board I am dealing with here is it?

What cheap shots have I indulged in? My opinion is consistant, brisbane are now paying the price for some salary decisions and are paying the price for defering list management. Its funny how most agree but then go into lenghty defences of it. I'm not sure it even requires defending. its just what happened, but the effects now are undeniable.

The salary cap concession can in some ways also be blamed for this to, as there was some dependency built up on having that extra buffer and some longer term contracts may have been negotiated with that extension in mind.

But when it was slowly removed the contracts remained and did it leave the club in a difficult situation? Did the club have an unhealthy dependency on it?

It was stated that no-one begrudges the club Voss his payment this year. Thats fine but what are the impacts on the club in terms of recruitment, other player payments, internal resentments etc etc?

 

[campbell]

I found it interesting in the break up of the figures on our current 2007 membership, that we have the lowest child membership. I wonder if that has anything to do with the kids loving Aka, and the drop off from last year with him not being at the club?

Players can't and don't talk in the media about their contracts, anything really that the club doesn't specifically allow or script them to say.They are powerless if and when a particular club brings their loyalty into question.