Brisbane face another big loss

[John]

So this is the brisbane board I am dealing with here is it?

What cheap shots have I indulged in? My opinion is consistant, brisbane are now paying the price for some salary decisions and are paying the price for defering list management. Its funny how most agree but then go into lenghty defences of it. I'm not sure it even requires defending. its just what happened, but the effects now are undeniable.

The salary cap concession can in some ways also be blamed for this to, as there was some dependency built up on having that extra buffer and some longer term contracts may have been negotiated with that extension in mind.

But when it was slowly removed the contracts remained and did it leave the club in a difficult situation? Did the club have an unhealthy dependency on it?

It was stated that no-one begrudges the club Voss his payment this year. Thats fine but what are the impacts on the club in terms of recruitment, other player payments, internal resentments etc etc?

I've enjoyed this debate that you have put forward but the Salary cap concession???? I am curious as to why you threw that old chestnut in. It is usually the less enlightened that use this furphy. I have always found it strange that although in 03 the Brisbane Lions TPP of 8.06m was the highest, the 2nd highest TPP was in fact the Pies with 7.638m and they had no concessions. These figures are TPP and do not include any external payments to players such as hair product advertising etc, Footy show appearance money etc. That in my calculation is a difference of $422,000 and at best say 2 middle ranking players of that time, a Notting and Copland say. How is that, to quote you "dependency built up on having that extra buffer"?

 

[Hoops]

Brisbane Lions crowds average so far this year is 27,678 which is more than what they were averaging in their premiership years of 2001 and 2002 and a lot more than what the Broncos were averaging from 1997 -2003. Brisbane is a very much a Bandwagon City and yet the Lions have still managed to maintain decent crowds despite struggling.

The $30mil revenue is close to or more than what the biggest NRL team pulls in which also happens to be the Broncos

 

[John]

I found it interesting in the break up of the figures on our current 2007 membership, that we have the lowest child membership. I wonder if that has anything to do with the kids loving Aka, and the drop off from last year with him not being at the club?

Players can't and don't talk in the media about their contracts, anything really that the club doesn't specifically allow or script them to say.They are powerless if and when a particular club brings their loyalty into question.

campbell this is a decent debate with an articulate poster in FuManchu and you bring Akermanis into it. Akermanis is not the Lions and the "kiddies" will
find another hero soon enough. Get over it.

 

[campbell]

campbell this is a decent debate with an articulate poster in FuManchu and you bring Akermanis into it. Akermanis is not the Lions and the "kiddies" will
find another hero soon enough. Get over it.

I am over it.
Its a relevant part of the debate about what this thread is based on our dwindling membership base.
Aka got people in the door, kids loved him. Whether you like it or not it was a fact.

 

[Hoops]

Re: Brisbane crowds are falling

Lions H&A Average

1997 - 19550
1998 - 16675
1999 - 21936
2000 - 27406
2001 - 27638
2002 - 27062
2003 - 31628
2004 - 33636
2005 - 33268
2006 - 28448
2007 - 27678

Falling? - no more than any other AFL club that is struggling,

If a Melbourne Club is struggling it has other Melbourne clubs it is playing against that might not be struggling to help prop up the averages.

 

[John]

I am over it.
Its a relevant part of the debate about what this thread is based on our dwindling membership base.
Aka got people in the door, kids loved him. Whether you like it or not it was a fact.

So thousands are not turning up because of Akermanis? Give me a break. Qlders are notoriously fickle when it comes to their teams winning. If we were 12-3 there would 30,000 plus through the gates each week Akermanis playing or not. I would also add that the "kiddies" that are in my circle of friends and acquaintance's are all Rhan Hooper fans now.

 

[John]

Brisbane Lions crowds average so far this year is 27,678 which is more than what they were averaging in their premiership years of 2001 and 2002 and a lot more than what the Broncos were averaging from 1997 -2003. Brisbane is a very much a Bandwagon City and yet the Lions have still managed to maintain decent crowds despite struggling.

The $30mil revenue is close to or more than what the biggest NRL team pulls in which also happens to be the Broncos

I am not sure that rugby league needs to brought into this debate but what I will say is that when the Bears moved to the gabba the crowds were poor. I remember that we played Freo one day with a crowd of under 16,000. A mate and I discussed this at the time and thought that this may be the average for the future. If we have averaged 27,000 odd this year maybe that is our crowd and we need to, in the future, budget accordingly.

 

[Hicham]

Re: Brisbane crowds are falling

Look, just play his pathetic little game, Le Kook. It just makes him look more foolish.

Broncos average: 36,155

Broncos average minus game vs Titans: 34,374

Now go back to sleep you lot. Fair dinkum

 

[campbell]

So thousands are not turning up because of Akermanis? Give me a break. Qlders are notoriously fickle when it comes to their teams winning. If we were 12-3 there would 30,000 plus through the gates each week Akermanis playing or not. I would also add that the "kiddies" that are in my circle of friends and acquaintance's are all Rhan Hooper fans now.

Who knows, but we DO know that kids loved Aka. Still do.Do the actual Brisbane public know who Rhan is? Is he allowed to be in the media, is his face on TV, is he quirky and kid friendly as Aka was? Aka was unique in his marketability, we lost that and we haven't replaced that, in marketing terms.

A lot of our supporters have another team as their 1st team, its always been the same.I think we as a club should respect the opposition clubs, we are unique in this support issue.

 

[campbell]

I am not sure that rugby league needs to brought into this debate but what I will say is that when the Bears moved to the gabba the crowds were poor. I remember that we played Freo one day with a crowd of under 16,000. A mate and I discussed this at the time and thought that this may be the average for the future. If we have averaged 27,000 odd this year maybe that is our crowd and we need to, in the future, budget accordingly.

The last 2 matches we have had 22,000, which is a worry.

We could only get 32,000 for the Pies match. which normally is a sell out.

 

[FuManchu]

I've enjoyed this debate that you have put forward but the Salary cap concession???? I am curious as to why you threw that old chestnut in. It is usually the less enlightened that use this furphy. I have always found it strange that although in 03 the Brisbane Lions TPP of 8.06m was the highest, the 2nd highest TPP was in fact the Pies with 7.638m and they had no concessions. These figures are TPP and do not include any external payments to players such as hair product advertising etc, Footy show appearance money etc. That in my calculation is a difference of $422,000 and at best say 2 middle ranking players of that time, a Notting and Copland say. How is that, to quote you "dependency built up on having that extra buffer"?

The difference being that we werent going to have a portion removed and therefore all contracts negotiated theoretically weren't going to be affected by a slow withdrawl of any concession. How many of the long term contracts were negotiated with the concession in place?

The dependency could come in either, having the ablilty to maintain a list and avoid the cycle of shedding talent to maintain a stricter salary cap or, if you paid players at their market rate (rather than above it ) you had the ability to shop for perhaps two higher grade players than you would have been allowed on a tighter cap. So your list, instead of having 3 or 4 A grade players, may have been allowed 6 A graders.

The salary cap concession is not an old chestnut, it is part of the mix when it comes to describing where Brisbane are at now in terms of budgeting and salary payments. You cant deny this, even some of Voss' current contract is probably a result of reliance on the concession to pay above the odds. And in paying above the odds and even if Voss was still playing and warranting a healthy sum, by paying above the odds, is that having an impact further down the list, now the concession is either gone or nearly gone? And if so, then yes, the concession is still a factor not an old chestnut.

 

[Hoops]

Re: Brisbane crowds are falling

In regards to the OP - I can assume that since this Lions match was classified as a Melbourne 'home' fixture, the Lions won't be counting that crowd figure towards their 'official' crowd average for the year?

And some people have the nerve to try and claim other clubs crowd figures are 'artificial'....

Why would they? The Lions don't generate revenue from it

 

[John]

Who knows, but we DO know that kids loved Aka. Still do.Do the actual Brisbane public know who Rhan is? Is he allowed to be in the media, is his face on TV, is he quirky and kid friendly as Aka was? Aka was unique in his marketability, we lost that and we haven't replaced that, in marketing terms.

A lot of our supporters have another team as their 1st team, its always been the same.I think we as a club should respect the opposition clubs, we are unique in this support issue.

What in gods name does that mean? Why am even bothering to debate you? I must be bored.

 

[mr_cellotape]

Brisbane is a very much a Bandwagon City

And you'd know this how, Mister 'Location: SE Melbourne'?

Who knows, but we DO know that kids loved Aka.

Yeah, because it was the kids who were spending $'s to attend games. Do you actually have a point that you're trying to argue?

 

[campbell]

What in gods name does that mean? Why am even bothering to debate you? I must be bored.

The Essendon match this year for one. We disrespected Essendon prior to the match in the media.We took potshots at Mal Michael and their club and coach.
Now that particular week, they had a club stalwart die, who also happened to be the current ex captains grandfather.Not once in the media did we pay our respects to that player who died.Courtesy is all it would have taken, instead of arrogance.

My girlfriend is a current Brisbane Lions member,she is also a current Essendon member.She is bomber through and through, but we are her second team.She loves AFL, but after that week up here in our media and the lack of courtesy afforded a great of the game by our club, she is not renewing her membership next year.

 

[John]

The difference being that we werent going to have a portion removed and therefore all contracts negotiated teoretically weren't going to be affected by a slow withdrawl of any concession. How many of the long term contracts were negotiated with the concession in place?

The dependency could come in either having the ablilty to maintain alist and avoid the cycle of shedding talent to maintain a stricter salary cap or if you paid players at their market rate (rather than above it ) you had the ability to shop for perhaps two higher grade players than you would have been allowed on a tighter cap. So you list instead of having 3 or 4 A grade players, may have been allowed 6 A graders.

The salary cap concession is not an old chestnut, it is part of the mix when it comes to describing where Brisbane are at now in terms of budgeting and salary payments. You cant deny this, even some of Voss' current contract is probably a result of reliance on the concession to pay above the odds. And in paying above the odds and even if Voss was still playing and warranting a healthy sum, by paying above the odds, is that having an impact further down the list, now the concession is either gone or nearly gone? And if so, then yes, the concession is still a factor not an old chestnut.

Hmmm. Not sure how to reply to this. But I will give it a shot. Those figures that I quoted for season 03 showed a discrepancy of $422,000. How does that relate to 2 or 3 more A grade players when compared to the Pies for example? That year Carlton had the 3rd highest TPP, we will not count them in this debate as they had issues, but 4th was West Coast on 7.294m. That $344,000 less than the Pies payed in TPP. Did not in the season 03 the Pies have a dependency in that they could (somehow) pay the equivalent of a very good player, in fact a player of Akermanis ability, over the West Coast Eagles for example?

 

[John]

The Essendon match this year for one. We disrespected Essendon prior to the match in the media.We took potshots at Mal Michael and their club and coach.
Now that particular week, they had a club stalwart die, who also happened to be the current ex captains grandfather.Not once in the media did we pay our respects to that player who died.Courtesy is all it would have taken, instead of arrogance.

My girlfriend is a current Brisbane Lions member,she is also a current Essendon member.She is bomber through and through, but we are her second team.She loves AFL, but after that week up here in our media and the lack of courtesy afforded a great of the game by our club, she is not renewing her membership next year.

I am glad she is not renewing her membership. Now leave me alone will you.

 

[mr_cellotape]

Now that particular week, they had a club stalwart die, who also happened to be the current ex captains grandfather.Not once in the media did we pay our respects to that player who died.

What?! Even if anyone knew about that, no-one would have cared. And rightly so. Should we hand out boxes of tissues to Lions fans because a players' cousins' pet dog died during the week? What exactly are you getting at here?

My girlfriend is a current Brisbane Lions member,she is also a current Essendon member.She is bomber through and through, but we are her second team.She loves AFL, but after that week up here in our media and the lack of courtesy afforded a great of the game by our club, she is not renewing her membership next year.

Says more about her than it does about the Lions. The word 'bandwagon' comes to mind.

 

[campbell]

I am glad she is not renewing her membership. Now leave me alone will you.

Excuse me?

Why be nasty.

We are unique with our membership base, in that we have a lot of members who also follow their original team.The team they followed in Melbourne.They are one part of the membership wedge, that makes our support base unique.

You see it all the time, the guy who sits next to us is a rabid Pie supporter, but also a Lion member.He loves both,and is a member of both, but his heart is with the Pies.He loves his footy.Come pies matches he is a Pies guy all decked out and hating the Lions, next game he is their to watch the footy and support the Lions.

You may not like or want these people as members, but they are our members, they have been for years financially supporting our team becuase they have relocated and love their footy.

Also Fu, the Salary cap concessions is a good point.In 2004, we knew we were at the end.We had one last crack.We knew we were losing the cap concessions gradually, yet we appear to have had a few new signed contracts which are back ended from then ie signed 2004 and payable backended this year or last year.2006 and 2007. ie Leppa and Chris Scott.Both were injury prone.IMO thats bad list management.

 

[FuManchu]

Hmmm. Not sure how to reply to this. But I will give it a shot. Those figures that I quoted for season 03 showed a discrepancy of $422,000. How does that relate to 2 or 3 more A grade players when compared to the Pies for example? That year Carlton had the 3rd highest TPP, we will not count them in this debate as they had issues, but 4th was West Coast on 7.294m. That $344,000 less than the Pies payed in TPP. Did not in the season 03 the Pies have a dependency in that they could (somehow) pay the equivalent of a very good player, in fact a player of Akermanis ability, over the West Coast Eagles for example?

Its all about market value and then paying above market value. When you are at 100% of the cap (concession not included) you have no room to move. but with the concession you have the ability to either keep some players by paying more and theoretically Brisbane may have held on to a number of players they may have lost to market forces. That 400K could translate to 4 players getting 100K over their market value, but with longer term consequences.

Or you could shop for one very good player on the market and keep the rest of the list at their current salary. 400K buys you a very good player, even now.

Or, as I think may also have happened, some back loaded contracts were created with the concession used to pay players. Back loaded contracts are fraught with danger, back loaded contracts with a tenuous and controversial concession component financing part of it are disasterous.

What was Brisbane's use of that concession? Was it to inflate salaries or to shop? I think they inflated salaries and this is fine until that concession is withdrawn. The minute is it eroded, and the contracts still are in place, players further down the list either wear the brunt of less salary or recruitment losses out.

As for the Pies in that year, how much of that high salary payment was paid due to finals games payments? And if it was, then this makes it irrelevant as unless they maintain finals appearances, the payments are not required. And as I assume the AFL have scrutinised these payments, its all above board. Because I think if Collingwood broke the salary cap rules, the screaming on here and in the media wouldnt stop for years.

 

[campbell]

What?! Even if anyone knew about that, no-one would have cared. And rightly so. Should we hand out boxes of tissues to Lions fans because a players' cousins' pet dog died during the week? What exactly are you getting at here?



Says more about her than it does about the Lions. The word 'bandwagon' comes to mind.

James Hirds Grandfather died that week, he also was a legend for playing with that club.
Yes, you respect that.Its common decency.

She aint not bandwagon member,she has been a member since memberships were available in Queensland.She has put her money where her support is, for over 18 years, through good and bad times.

 

[mr_cellotape]

James Hirds Grandfather died that week, he also was a legend for playing with that club.
Yes, you respect that.Its common decency.

Huh? So your girlfriend is not renewing her Lions membership because Brisbane media didn't mention that someone related to someone who plays for Essendon died? Again, I don't understand what you're getting at. If this is the calibre of 'supporter' we're losing, I can't say that I'm all that disappointed.

 

[campbell]

Huh? So your girlfriend is not renewing her Lions membership because Brisbane media didn't mention that someone related to someone who plays for Essendon died? Again, I don't understand what you're getting at. If this is the calibre of 'supporter' we're losing, I can't say that I'm all that disappointed.

I never mentioned the Brisbane media, I mentioned the Brisbane Football club, a HUGE difference.

 

[John]

Its all about market value and then paying above market value. When you are at 100% of the cap (concession not included) you have no room to move. but with the concession you have the ability to either keep some players by paying more and theoretically Brisbane may have held on to a number of players they may have lost to market forces. That 400K could translate to 4 players getting 100K over their market value, but with longer term consequences.

Or you could shop for one very good player on the market and keep the rest of the list at their current salary. 400K buys you a very good player, even now.

Or, as I think may also have happened, some back loaded contracts were created with the concession used to pay players. Back loaded contracts are fraught with danger, back loaded contracts with a tenuous and controversial concession component financing it are disasterous.

What was Brisbane's use of that concession? Was it to inflate salaries or to shop? I think they inflated salaries and this is fine until that concession is withdrawn. The minute is it eroded, and the contracts still are in place so, players further down the list either wear the brunt of less salary or recruitment losses out.

As for the Pies in that year, how much of that high salary payment was paid due to finals games payments? And if it was, then this makes it irrelevant as unless they maintain finals appearances, the payments are not required.

I not sure that I understand your reply. My question was

Did not in the season 03 the Pies have a dependency in that they could (somehow) pay the equivalent of a very good player, in fact a player of Akermanis ability, over the West Coast Eagles for example?

I presume you are saying that the Pies had to pay extra due to the fact that they made the finals and had to pay Finals appearance payments? Would not the same ring true for say Port Adelaide who finished minor premiers who payed TPP 7.114m, in that they payed $525,000 less than the Pies but still had to pay Finals appearance payments?

 

[mr_cellotape]

I never mentioned the Brisbane media, I mentioned the Brisbane Football club, a HUGE difference.

Not once in the media did we pay our respects to that player who died. ... She loves AFL, but after that week up here in our media and the lack of courtesy afforded a great of the game by our club...

Yeah, sorry for reading what you wrote