Brisbane face another big loss

[FuManchu]

I not sure that I understand your reply. My question was I presume you are saying that the Pies had to pay extra due to the fact that they made the finals and had to pay Finals appearance payments? Would not the same ring true for say Port Adelaide who finished minor premiers who payed TPP 7.114m, in that they payed $525,000 less but still had to pay Finals appearance payments?

I cant answer that, all I can say is that the payments must have been approved and the only variable from a normal H&A season is finals appearances. How payments are structured for finals I wouldnt know. But I do know that Collingwood in the subsequent years boasted that they had a fair bit of salary cap room and they said they would use it to shop then they said they would use the draft and not shop. So conflicting messages.

 

[campbell]

Yeah, sorry for reading what you wrote

Our club people ie matthews, players and Bowers were all speaking on TV and quoted in papers regarding mal etc etc. How Mal was slow,how we were going expose him etc. All we focused on was our beef with an ex player.

They were playing for the memory of a club champion, who's grandson is a current player. Hird had a blinder that night.

It was the week to put our heads down and get on with the job, not be negative about our oppositions player, coach and club.We did what we accused West Coast of doing, not respecting our opposition.I did mention my opinion that week on our board.

 

[John]

I cant answer that, all I can say is that the payments must have been approved and the only variable from a normal H&A season is finals appearances. How payments are structured for finals I wouldnt know. But I do know that Collingwood in the subsequent years boasted that they had a fair bit of salary cap room and they said they would use it to shop then they said they would use the draft and not shop. So conflicting messages.

Fair enough. I find it interesting that you, as one of the more literate posters, in the end are unable to answer questions about the salary cap concessions that the Lions had. When I have ever asked this no one has been able to answer these issues that I raise as in the end the TPP payments show a massive discrepancy from top to bottom. We know that clubs must pay a minimum of 92.5%, hence Bulldogs being very low but using the difference between the Pies, $7.638m and the Bulldogs $6.186m, that is a discrepancy of $1,452,000. The question is.... is that figure of 1.4 million 7.5% of the salary cap???. I go back to my original point in that I think that the salary cap is a non issue, (in fact there is a large amount of propaganda about this issues that Pravda/News limited would have been proud of) in the debate about the Lions loss's of both revenue and crowd loss.

 

[Snuka]

I never mentioned the Brisbane media, I mentioned the Brisbane Football club, a HUGE difference.

The footy club didn't actually say anything about Mal or E'don.

 

[FuManchu]

Fair enough. I find it interesting that you, as one of the more literate posters, in the end are unable to answer questions about the salary cap concessions that the Lions had. When I have ever asked this no one has been able to answer these issues that I raise as in the end the TPP payments show a massive discrepancy from top to bottom. We know that clubs must pay a minimum of 92.5%, hence Bulldogs being very low but using the difference between the Pies, $7.638m and the Bulldogs $6.186m, that is a discrepancy of $1,452,000. The question is.... is that figure of 1.4 million 7.5% of the salary cap???. I go back to my original point in that I think that the salary cap is a non issue, (in fact there is a large amount of propaganda about this issues that Pravda/News limited would have been proud of) in the debate about the Lions loss's of both revenue and crowd loss.

The salary cap concessions are just one part of the equation I was referring to in the whole thread. It is a combination of factors that Brisbane find themselves in the situation they are in. The sum of all these parts if you will.

Forget every other club and isolate Brisbane. Comparisons to other clubs are not going to explain the unique circumstances that Brisbane had.

The concession would have enabled inflated salaries which had to be honoured at a later and less ideal time.
The go for a fourth flag deferred serious list culling
The older list meant increased injury problems
back loaded contracts create serious salary issues which have impacts on the list and recruitment opportunites further down the track.
top of the ladder finishes meant poor drafting opportunities
non trading of players also meant less drafting opportunities.

These are the factors that have led to now. Maybe now is not a disaster, but you cant discount the effects all of the above factors have had leading up until this point. My point is that I think that in staying longer in the peak of the cycle, you may have to endure a bit longer at the bottom of the cycle than is the norm.

And staying at the bottom of the cycle is going to impact on the club in terms of crowds and therefore long term viability in a very fickle market as is being demonstrated right now with falling memberships and crowds.

as for your discrepancies in the 7.5%, maybe (and I cant tell you for sure) the AFL do some sort of averaging over some periods. Ask them, its a good question

 

[campbell]

The footy club didn't actually say anything about Mal or E'don.

Unfortunately they did. Michael Bowers did.
So did players, I think it was jed , saying how slow he was, and how we were going to expose him.So did lethal.

 

[Snuka]

Unfortunately they did. Michael Bowers did.
So did players, I think it was jed , saying how slow he was, and how we were going to expose him.So did lethal.

So they talked about certain opposition players and how they would win a game, this happens all the time...your Bulldogs hero did it every week.

 

[campbell]

So they talked about certain opposition players and how they would win a game, this happens all the time...your Bulldogs hero did it every week.

My Bulldogs hero? Get a grip.

IMO opinion, this particular week was NOT the week to dish dirt on the opposition club in any way.Due to the passing of a playing legend within that club, whose grandson still played for that club.

IMO, this week should have been about getting on with the job.No gobbing off at the other team mid week.Silence and respecting their loss and getting on with the business of winning our game against them, silently.

 

[FuManchu]

My Bulldogs hero? Get a grip.

IMO opinion, this particular week was NOT the week to dish dirt on the opposition club in any way.Due to the passing of a playing legend within that club, whose grandson still played for that club.

IMO, this week should have been about getting on with the job.No gobbing off at the other team mid week.Silence and respecting their loss and getting on with the business of winning our game against them, silently.

lets face it, matthews uses bluff and bluster much in the same way Sheedy does. the more you hear from Sheedy, the worse you know his team is going.

Matthews probably thought a shot across the bows would create some uncertainty in the Dons camp as he knew his team was in trouble on paper.

 

[campbell]

lets face it, matthews uses bluff and bluster much in the same way Sheedy does. the more you hear from Sheedy, the worse you know his team is going.

Matthews probably thought a shot across the bows would create some uncertainty in the Dons camp as he knew his team was in trouble on paper.

You are probably right.Except we gave the opposition ammunition AGAINST us that particular week, in our disrespect of their club.

Lions coach Leigh Matthews has long been adept at playing the media game, and played it harder than usual last week, singling his former key defender out for not just one but a couple of shots across the bow. There was some ironic comments about Michael's fitness, his loyalty, and his charity work in Papua New Guinea.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/michael-proves-a-point/2007/05/19/1179497346964.html

 

[John]

The salary cap concessions are just one part of the equation I was referring to in the whole thread. It is a combination of factors that Brisbane find themselves in the situation they are in. The sum of all these parts if you will.

Forget every other club and isolate Brisbane. Comparisons to other clubs are not going to explain the unique circumstances that Brisbane had.

The concession would have enabled inflated salaries which had to be honoured at a later and less ideal time.
The go for a fourth flag deferred serious list culling
The older list meant increased injury problems
back loaded contracts create serious salary issues which have impacts on the list and recruitment opportunites further down the track.
top of the ladder finishes meant poor drafting opportunities
non trading of players also meant less drafting opportunities.

These are the factors that have led to now. Maybe now is not a disaster, but you cant discount the effects all of the above factors have had leading up until this point. My point is that I think that in staying longer in the peak of the cycle, you may have to endure a bit longer at the bottom of the cycle than is the norm.

And staying at the bottom of the cycle is going to impact on the club in terms of crowds and therefore long term viability in a very fickle market as is being demonstrated right now with falling memberships and crowds.

as for your discrepancies in the 7.5%, maybe (and I cant tell you for sure) the AFL do some sort of averaging over some periods. Ask them, its a good question

Fair enough again. I for one would not give up anything that we achieved, even if it does requires a fair bit of time in the wilderness as you have quoted here

My point is that I think that in staying longer in the peak of the cycle, you may have to endure a bit longer at the bottom of the cycle than is the norm.

I agree with this

And staying at the bottom of the cycle is going to impact on the club in terms of crowds and therefore long term viability in a very fickle market as is being demonstrated right now with falling memberships and crowds.

as well. I believe that the club has budgeted for a the rainy days so all we can do is see how long those rainy days last. I have a bit of confidence that we will be back in 2 - 4 seasons.
If I get anything out of a revival by the Lions it will be to stick it up the Lions trolls and the non believers. Opposition supporters can say what they like. Lions supporters can get stuffed if they are bitching now after only a couple of seasons out of our glory years. Nice debating Fumanchu. A pleasure.

 

[Grimreepah]

So we are losing members because Leigh said Mal doesn't have a big engine. I'm glad we are finally getting to the bottom of this.

 

[John]

Sticking it up your own club >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pathetic excuse.
Glory hunters who I despise with a passion.

 

[FuManchu]

You are probably right.Except we gave the opposition ammunition AGAINST us that particular week, in our disrespect of their club.

Lions coach Leigh Matthews has long been adept at playing the media game, and played it harder than usual last week, singling his former key defender out for not just one but a couple of shots across the bow. There was some ironic comments about Michael's fitness, his loyalty, and his charity work in Papua New Guinea.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/michael-proves-a-point/2007/05/19/1179497346964.html

I think the clubs all know the gamesmanship that goes on and if they are taking things to that level where it becomes personal, it would get shut down quick smart. That is if someone other than Matthews is in charge at the LIons

If the Dons were that fired up about Hirds grandfather, then it mattered little what Matthews said or didnt say. He might not have helped the situation, but it would only have been a matter of degrees.

Sheedy is hardly one to talk, look what he said to and about Tony Shaw during and after the 2nd semi in 1990.

 

[John]

So we are losing members because Leigh said Mal doesn't have a big engine. I'm glad we are finally getting to the bottom of this.

That is the one thing you could never accuse Mal of having, a small engine. Haa haa haaa haaa haa.

 

[Hollow Knight]

That is the one thing you could never accuse Mal of having, a small engine. Haa haa haaa haaa haa.

Small heart on the other hand...

Wonder how that Mal Michael Foundation is going.

 

[FuManchu]

Sticking it up your own club >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pathetic excuse.
Glory hunters who I despise with a passion.

ah yes, but you also should be able to deal with some critical input from within.

My opinion of matthews now, is that he may have created a Sheedy like dynasty where he has entrenched himself in at the club and all oppostion is crushed. Not a healthy situation if what brisbane need are fresh faces and new ideas. Remembering that football is evolutionary and matthews may easily become yesterdays man quite quickly as football progresses. maybe not either.

FWIW and this includes malthouse at Collingwood, I think 5 to 6 years is about the limit of any one coach at any club, after that there is the possibility of becoming too entrenched, the club becoming stagnant and how much politics is played to keep yourself there.

Do you envisage matthews there in 3 years? If not, do you want some external influence to come in or do you want someone from within the ranks to come thru. If they have come from inside, are they too dependent on an existing culture? These are serious questions when it comes to succession management at any club.

 

[Sherrinator]

Re: Brisbane crowds are falling

How pathetic, describing 'derby' matches as 'artificial' - heaven forbid a club having a couple of geographically based rivalries.

One of the more desperate acts of code-salvation I've seen on these boards.

No mate, not defending the lions at all, I am just saying our poor crowds are reasonable compared to that of the dominant code/team in the area. I understand the Lions don't have a game they can really 'talk up', which as I said, the fact is the Broncos do (3+ suncorp games) which bumps their averages right up.

Do you dispute that the derby games boost your crowd averages?

 

[kimp]

It's basic business management. Is there anyone as strong as Leigh to take over what he has built during his tenure. If yes then all is well. If no, then there will be a great shakeup.

Leigh is staying to tick his final box - building a club back up from the pits of the ladder to reigning premiers again. Assuming the Lions keep improving every year and are contenders again in 2-3 years then it's all been worth it. It depends just as much as what the opposition coaches are doing at the time of course. A very big part of our premiership wins were that the only opposition left on GF day were Collingwood.

As for crowd numbers, thanks to whoever it was who pointed out that our average crowds are higher than 02-03. That is vital information that hasn't been provided before. If the crowads are expecting wallopping losses then they are not going to show up. That's easy. I would expect the crowd numbers to increase again now that the Lions are doing ok.

I can't believe that it is expected by some for the club to make public announcements about the wellbeing of their opposition's family members and club officials. People that are not even known to the club. Yeah Leigh would probably regret what he said about Mal, but I for one don't blame him. Where is that terribly important charity that Mal was starting up. The really awful thing is that such things are very much needed in PNG so he is letting down his own country with unfulfilled promises. If people are so petty to not maintain their membership because of reasons such as this then obviously they were ready to give it up for other reasons. It seems to me that a lot of your friends campbell are happy to give up their memberships based on perceived slights. You and they really don't know what is said behind closed doors.

 

[Sherrinator]

Re: Brisbane crowds are falling

Where did the Reds come in the S14? Dead last? The same place where the Broncos have been for a large part of the season? Yeah...


Pfft.

Broncos won last year did they not? What about the Cowboys and Titans both top 8/top 4 hopes having good crowds?

I'm not talking about super 14, that has had paltry support for as long as it's been around.

The fact is if the QLD teams (apart from the cowboys comparitively) would have poor crowds if the team is playing poorly. Earlier this season the broncos had some sub 22k crowds, and i'm not surprised as the bronocs were at the bottom of the nrl. now they are winning, the crowds come back.

 

[Hicham]

Re: Brisbane crowds are falling

Broncos won last year did they not? What about the Cowboys and Titans both top 8/top 4 hopes having good crowds?

I'm not talking about super 14, that has had paltry support for as long as it's been around.

The fact is if the QLD teams (apart from the cowboys comparitively) would have poor crowds if the team is playing poorly. Earlier this season the broncos had some sub 22k crowds, and i'm not surprised as the bronocs were at the bottom of the nrl. now they are winning, the crowds come back.

See, stop bullshitting. There you go again.

The Broncos lowest crowd this season is 24,582. The next lowest is 27K.

You really should stop now.

http://stats.rleague.com/rl/seas/2007.html

 

[FuManchu]

[

quote=kimp;8129089]

As for crowd numbers, thanks to whoever it was who pointed out that our average crowds are higher than 02-03. That is vital information that hasn't been provided before. If the crowads are expecting wallopping losses then they are not going to show up. That's easy. I would expect the crowd numbers to increase again now that the Lions are doing ok.

Go here and have a look, what you have been told is not entirley true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane_Lions#Membership_base

 

[John]

ah yes, but you also should be able to deal with some critical input from within.

No issue at all with healthy debate. You are not a Lions supporter but have you and I had any issues? No. We have put over logical arguments. Not stupid crap like "I wish my club would STFU" rubbish every time that the club makes a statement about an issue that it may have concerns over. It is all about respecting the opinion of the poster and their ability to be concise, literate and answer fair questions put to them.

My opinion of matthews now, is that he may have created a Sheedy like dynasty where he has entrenched himself in at the club and all oppostion is crushed. Not a healthy situation if what brisbane need are fresh faces and new ideas. Remembering that football is evolutionary and matthews may easily become yesterdays man quite quickly as football progresses. maybe not either.

Maybe not either. This is a philosophical point that either one agrees with or not. I am a Manchester United supporter since birth so therefore have no issue with dynasties. Matt Busby/Alex Ferguson

FWIW and this includes malthouse at Collingwood, I think 5 to 6 years is about the limit of any one coach at any club, after that there is the possibility of becoming too entrenched, the club becoming stagnant and how much politics is played to keep yourself there.

That is up to you to think as a Pies supporter. FWIW I think he is a class coach. he got you guys into the 2 finals against the Lions with players that (arguably) did not stack up and I think that his coaching has been superb this year.

Do you envisage matthews there in 3 years? If not, do you want some external influence to come in or do you want someone from within the ranks to come thru. If they have come from inside, are they too dependent on an existing culture? These are serious questions when it comes to succession management at any club.

Yes I do envisage Mathews there in 3 years, though that is up to him IMO. As stated previously I am a believer in working dynasties when it comes to team sports. That makes the rest of your question moot.

 

[Sherrinator]

Re: Brisbane crowds are falling

See, stop bullshitting. There you go again.

The Broncos lowest crowd this season is 24,582. The next lowest is 27K.

You really should stop now.

http://stats.rleague.com/rl/seas/2007.html

Ok, your right, it was 24 not 22. Not that it matters any from what the argument was.

The Broncos have been getting better crowds than the Lions, noone is disputing this! However they haven't been THAT much greater.

Broncos have had 3 home games at suncorp exceeding 30k attendances. Two of those (48k+) were verse Gold Coast and Nth QLD. the other was 33k verse Melbourne. The rest of their games have been fairly average and comparable to the Lions 27-29k 2007 crowds.

 

[beatnik]

So this is the brisbane board I am dealing with here is it?

of course it's not

What cheap shots have I indulged in? My opinion is consistant, brisbane are now paying the price for some salary decisions and are paying the price for defering list management. Its funny how most agree but then go into lenghty defences of it. I'm not sure it even requires defending. its just what happened, but the effects now are undeniable.

The salary cap concession can in some ways also be blamed for this to, as there was some dependency built up on having that extra buffer and some longer term contracts may have been negotiated with that extension in mind.

But when it was slowly removed the contracts remained and did it leave the club in a difficult situation? Did the club have an unhealthy dependency on it?

It was stated that no-one begrudges the club Voss his payment this year. Thats fine but what are the impacts on the club in terms of recruitment, other player payments, internal resentments etc etc?

you've done it again - you've restated the same point: "brisbane are paying the price for having a crack at a 4 th flag"

my question to you, again, is 'so fricken what?'

there's nothing to defend - it's an established fact...the club publicly acknowledged this from 2002-3...leigh stated it many times...the players stated it many times...hell, even I have stated it many times

the fact that there would be a downswing associated with such unprecedented success is the MOST obvious 'stating the obvious' statement you could make

while some Lions fans continue to grind their axes over God knows what, 99.99% are very happy thank you very much with the way we are rebuilding

so what is your point ffs? what possible reaction could you possibly be looking/trolling for?

are you really wanting us to say 'it wasn't worth it'??? aside from one or two resident lion 'haters', it won't happen

you see, nothing could match that feeling of winning a 3rd consecutive flag...nothing...i know you will never understand that feeling but trust me when i say 'it was ******* worth it'