Opinion Bulldogs Culture and Brendan McCartney discussion thread

[Snake Livermore]

I think we're in pretty good shape in the post-Macca era. I honestly think he transformed the club for the better. I hate it how people view things so black and white. We've got Footscray up and running, we've got heaps more footy department spending, our recruitment systems are top notch, we've transitioned from a dire, waning last to one of the best young lists in the league, our membership is keeping track with our best performances bar the nab cup / Barry Hall outlier.

So I'm not sure what all the self flagellation is about. We wanted cultural change so we hired a hard arse coach from outside Bulldog circles with uncompromising team first ethos, he changed the culture, but turned out to be too inflexible and lost the players. He's now gone and left a new coach with a massive platform to build on.

When he was first recruited many on here said 'who knows if he's a good coach, we just need a gun development coach for a few years then someone else can take over and get us to finals'. And guess what? That's what is going to happen.

The notion that Macca was a disaster from start to finish and has set the club back years is hyperventilating bullshit.

 

[Mattdougie]

You've overlooked the 3-4 "insiders" who had far more credible, and factual, information on a regular basis, and still do - sorry lachy, but talking to a player or two is not an "insider".

Sorry Ivan my info was directly from a small group of players in happy to call mates and some work for me part time so I think that counts as "inside"

And I've admotted many times I've only put about 2% of the things I've heard on hear and nothin they have said to not talk about to anyone.

 

[JJHunter]

I think we're in pretty good shape in the post-Macca era. I honestly think he transformed the club for the better. I hate it how people view things so black and white. We've got Footscray up and running, we've got heaps more footy department spending, our recruitment systems are top notch, we've transitioned from a dire, waning last to one of the best young lists in the league, our membership is keeping track with our best performances bar the nab cup / Barry Hall outlier.

So I'm not sure what all the self flagellation is about. We wanted cultural change so we hired a hard arse coach from outside Bulldog circles with uncompromising team first ethos, he changed the culture, but turned out to be too inflexible and lost the players. He's now gone and left a new coach with a massive platform to build on.

When he was first recruited many on here said 'who knows if he's a good coach, we just need a gun development coach for a few years then someone else can take over and get us to finals'. And guess what? That's what is going to happen.

The notion that Macca was a disaster from start to finish and has set the club back years is hyperventilating bullshit.

I was and are Anti Macca but have to admit you made some really strong points there.
I am one who can admit that some good was done and agree with some of the elements you point out.
It wasnt and isnt all doom and gloom as a result of him being at our club.

I have to add that alot of what you point out is not directly about on field performances .
We have great developing youth only because we finished so low on the ladder and had the fortune of a couple of great father sons. Recruting wise, while Mccartney played a part, I am sure the pats on the back should go to the recruiters who made some bold selections with our first picks. The fact we have a list manager now where we never used to previously I am sure also provides assistance.

But you cannot overlook the last 3 seasons of result as outside of a 8 week patch in year two, the majority of the rest of the time we played hard to watch footy that was not successful.
We lost a Captain, brownlow medalist and at the same time macca left with big fractures amomgst the player group and other departments of the club. Bevo said as much in a interview this week.

So while I can admit it wasnt a disaster from start to finish I am happy to say we have been set back at least 2 years but definitely one in our on field development as a result of it all.

 

[the dog's kennel]

We wanted cultural change so we hired a hard arse coach from outside Bulldog circles with uncompromising team first ethos, he changed the culture, but turned out to be too inflexible and lost the players. He's now gone and left a new coach with a massive platform to build on.

When he was first recruited many on here said 'who knows if he's a good coach, we just need a gun development coach for a few years then someone else can take over and get us to finals'. And guess what? That's what is going to happen.

You are describing me here. I have spent the last 2 years saying "We just need someone to teach the kids the basics, and to accumulate draft picks. And then after a few years we can work out whether that person is a decent coach - and if not, we replace them with one." I am not surprised that Macca appears to have been a dud coach. And I don't really care. I never saw him as anything but a glorified temporary development coach.

I certainly am not going to paint Macca losing the players as a good thing - even if it did end in us losing a bunch of players we probably needed to lose anyway + swapping Griffen (who we definitely did NOT need to lose) for Boyd.

But if the net result of the last 3 years is a bunch of high draft picks who have been given the right grounding to build from, then I would say "That'll do". And I would then thank Gordo for recognising that Macca had passed his use-by date and moving onto the next stage.

There is now little doubt that the contract extension was foolish. As a Macca agnostic I was always uncomfortable with it. But all I care about is where we are at. And IF we are still on track for long term success (minus Griffen, Cooney, Higgins, Jones and Tutt + Boyd) then I can live with that.

 

[Snake Livermore]

I was and are Anti Macca but have to admit you made some really strong points there.
I am one who can admit that some good was done and agree with some of the elements you point out.
It wasnt and isnt all doom and gloom as a result of him being at our club.

I have to add that alot of what you point out is not directly about on field performances .
We have great developing youth only because we finished so low on the ladder and had the fortune of a couple of great father sons. Recruting wise, while Mccartney played a part, I am sure the pats on the back should go to the recruiters who made some bold selections with our first picks. The fact we have a list manager now where we never used to previously I am sure also provides assistance.

But you cannot overlook the last 3 seasons of result as outside of a 8 week patch in year two, the majority of the rest of the time we played hard to watch footy that was not successful.
We lost a Captain, brownlow medalist and at the same time macca left with big fractures amomgst the player group and other departments of the club. Bevo said as much in a interview this week.

So while I can admit it wasnt a disaster from start to finish I am happy to say we have been set back at least 2 years but definitely one in our on field development as a result of it all.

Yes, agree with most of that. Certainly the last 6 months of his tenure there was damage done, but nothing that can't be turned around really quickly under some strong, positive leadership, and Bev is showing all the signs of being capable of that, thank God.

And I think Macca was heavily involved in all the positives I mentioned (even membership, he was good at selling hope). With the list we had we were always going to get high draft picks, but he put the systems in place to ensure we didn't piss them up against the wall like we had done the past ten years.

Anyway it turned out he was a shite match day coach, had dysfunctional selection ideologies, and didn't have the ability to keep a playing list inspired and onside. None of which will have any longlasting impact on Bev's job of taking us to finals.

 

[Snake Livermore]

You are describing me here. I have spent the last 2 years saying "We just need someone to teach the kids the basics, and to accumulate draft picks. And then after a few years we can work out whether that person is a decent coach - and if not, we replace them with one." I am not surprised that Macca appears to have been a dud coach. And I don't really care. I never saw him as anything but a glorified temporary development coach.

I certainly am not going to paint Macca losing the players as a good thing - even if it did end in us losing a bunch of players we probably needed to lose anyway + swapping Griffen (who we definitely did NOT need to lose) for Boyd.

But if the net result of the last 3 years is a bunch of high draft picks who have been given the right grounding to build from, then I would say "That'll do". And I would then thank Gordo for recognising that Macca had passed his use-by date and moving onto the next stage.

There is now little doubt that the contract extension was foolish. As a Macca agnostic I was always uncomfortable with it. But all I care about is where we are at. And IF we are still on track for long term success (minus Griffen, Cooney, Higgins, Jones and Tutt + Boyd) then I can live with that.

Agree, and removing a coach is never going to be completely pain free, but I'd say you're right, Gordon got in there quickly enough to nullify any long term damage. I didn't want to lose Griff either, but that deal might end up being a major positive. We shall see...

 

[Bont2Bruce]

And I think Macca was heavily involved in all the positives I mentioned (even membership, he was good at selling hope).

He was really bad at selling to the members in his 3rd year. Those godawful member-only email-videos were unwatchable to me what with all of the cliches and nothing-speak in them. And I was a glass-half-full Macca supporter all the way through 2014, when I say that about the videos.

Anyway it turned out he was a shite match day coach, had dysfunctional selection ideologies, and didn't have the ability to keep a playing list inspired and onside. None of which will have any longlasting impact on Bev's job of taking us to finals.

The big criticism I have of the Macca years is that we didn't have a tactical thinker on the coaching team, someone who was trying to get ahead of the curve. Mostly we were stifled by Macca's views on contested footy and teaching as priorities. While other teams experimented with tactics and raced past us, we were stuck in a gameplan that might have been good 5-6 years ago but was out of date in 2014.

 

[Hrovat24]

I am assuming you are joking.

I'm serious Malthouse would do the same thing

 

[timtamWB]

I'm serious Malthouse would do the same thing

The same Malthouse who has won 1 premiership in the last 15 years?

Yeah let's do what he does.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I'm surprised people still vehemently support McCartney and lament his removal. Whether he was a good coach or a bad coach; whether he was working toward something genuine or we were sold a fictional vision; and whether he would have done something great with this club or not, the guy lost the players. They may well be 'soft' but a good coach understands individual differences and adjusts his coaching style to suit the players - McCartney failed to reach the players and it culminated in the worst off-season in recent memory for the club. I do think he did some really good things for the club which I've been over ad infinitum but his time was up: he lost the players and that's that.

 

[Hrovat24]

The same Malthouse who has won 1 premiership in the last 15 years?

Yeah let's do what he does.

He has coached more premierships than what we have won in our history in the vfl / afl hahahaha and that 1 in 15 is still more than our team

 

[JJHunter]

I have

I'm surprised people still vehemently support McCartney and lament his removal. Whether he was a good coach or a bad coach; whether he was working toward something genuine or we were sold a fictional vision; and whether he would have done something great with this club or not, the guy lost the players. They may well be 'soft' but a good coach understands individual differences and adjusts his coaching style to suit the players - McCartney failed to reach the players and it culminated in the worst off-season in recent memory for the club. I do think he did some really good things for the club which I've been over ad infinitum but his time was up: he lost the players and that's that.

I haven't read too many against the decision to remove him of late. I reckon some are just trying to point out it wasn't all bad his time at the club.

While I know we can wear it in the cap etc but what's a bee in my bonet is the fact we are effectively paying griff and Macca salaries this year ! And significant sums all cause of a stupid decision to renew a contract ! If there was one thing I was strong on in the last 18 months was just how stupid it was at the time

 

[Beasley]

Congratulations to Luke Beveridge for the way he has handled things so far. We are slowly learning of how bad things really were under the former coach and Beveridge has introduced a number of new strategies to overcome the mess and get the coaching and management on an appropriate professional level for an AFL club.

Here's hoping he can inspire confidence in the playing group to enable the club to re-sign the 16 players that come out of contract at the end of this season.

 

[the conch]

I think we're in pretty good shape in the post-Macca era. I honestly think he transformed the club for the better. I hate it how people view things so black and white. We've got Footscray up and running, we've got heaps more footy department spending, our recruitment systems are top notch, we've transitioned from a dire, waning last to one of the best young lists in the league, our membership is keeping track with our best performances bar the nab cup / Barry Hall outlier.

So I'm not sure what all the self flagellation is about. We wanted cultural change so we hired a hard arse coach from outside Bulldog circles with uncompromising team first ethos, he changed the culture, but turned out to be too inflexible and lost the players. He's now gone and left a new coach with a massive platform to build on.

When he was first recruited many on here said 'who knows if he's a good coach, we just need a gun development coach for a few years then someone else can take over and get us to finals'. And guess what? That's what is going to happen.

The notion that Macca was a disaster from start to finish and has set the club back years is hyperventilating bullshit.

Other people such as Garlic and Gordon and the recruiting staff gotta take a lot of credit for a lot of the good stuff.

 

[ErnieSigley]

I think we're in pretty good shape in the post-Macca era. I honestly think he transformed the club for the better. I hate it how people view things so black and white. We've got Footscray up and running, we've got heaps more footy department spending, our recruitment systems are top notch, we've transitioned from a dire, waning last to one of the best young lists in the league, our membership is keeping track with our best performances bar the nab cup / Barry Hall outlier.

So I'm not sure what all the self flagellation is about. We wanted cultural change so we hired a hard arse coach from outside Bulldog circles with uncompromising team first ethos, he changed the culture, but turned out to be too inflexible and lost the players. He's now gone and left a new coach with a massive platform to build on.

When he was first recruited many on here said 'who knows if he's a good coach, we just need a gun development coach for a few years then someone else can take over and get us to finals'. And guess what? That's what is going to happen.

The notion that Macca was a disaster from start to finish and has set the club back years is hyperventilating bullshit.

None of these 'achievements' were directly because Macca was our coach. Any coach could have been in charge. Finishing close to bottom to get good draft picks isn't what was planned.
Also the culture got worse not better.

 

[ErnieSigley]

I'm serious Malthouse would do the same thing

Yes another funny one.
Comparing the longest ever serving coach to dud like macca

 

[Some Idiot]

I'm serious Malthouse would do the same thing

Not to say that it isn't an approach that can work, but it's a bit medieval in this day and age. We expect coaches to be a tad more varied in their motivation techniques these days.

 

[TMoney22]

I'm very happy losing Higgins and Cooney. Can you imagine them as our veterans who the young guys turn too. They have nothing on Murphy, Boyd and Morris. I'd rather them have no one.

 

[Proffessor]

(2) Did the panel do a proper risk assessment in choosing a coach with no AFL playing experience? Macca was the first such coach in many, many years. I'm not saying that the risk (at the time) was too great but surely you would try to mitigate the impact of any possible weaknesses by surrounding him with old and proven hands, and by close attention to his progress. It's easy to say in hindsight, but at least we should learn from it. Have we done any better in establishing the Beveridge tenure?

This is an important issue. In selecting a coach without playing experience, there needed to be recognition that this weakness was serious and had to be considered rather than dismissed as irrelevant. For a candidate lacking this experience to be selected it should have been incumbent on the selection panel to ensure that the candidate possessed truly outstanding skills in other areas, to offset such a significant deficiency.
Clearly this was not done.

I don't think employing others would have made any difference, the inherent problem was that the McCartney didn't possess enough personal strengths to offset the gaps in his experience.

 

[Mutt]

This is an important issue. In selecting a coach without playing experience, there needed to be recognition that this weakness was serious and had to be considered rather than dismissed as irrelevant. For a candidate lacking this experience to be selected it should have been incumbent on the selection panel to ensure that the candidate possessed truly outstanding skills in other areas, to offset such a significant deficiency.
Clearly this was not done.

I don't think employing others would have made any difference, the inherent problem was that the McCartney didn't possess enough personal strengths to offset the gaps in his experience.

There would also have to be questions raised about McCartney's temperament and judgement, given his hotheadedness and willingness to ridicule players as his frustrations grew. It seems that losing the confidence and trust of a significant number of the players was ultimately what brought him undone, not his match day coaching nor his lack of AFL playing experience.

 

[Mofra]

There would also have to be questions raised about McCartney's temperament and judgement, given his hotheadedness and willingness to ridicule players as his frustrations grew. It seems that losing the confidence and trust of a significant number of the players was ultimately what brought him undone, not his match day coaching nor his lack of AFL playing experience.

One player manager described B-Mac as "a bully".
Interesting to contrast it with the choice of Bevo as coach, a noted "bring everyone together" type.

 

[Mutt]

One player manager described B-Mac as "a bully".
Interesting to contrast it with the choice of Bevo as coach, a noted "bring everyone together" type.

When I now look back at some of his media appearances, his stern School Master demeanor really shone through. I could imagine Macca as a bit of a bully, but someone who would be shocked and distressed to be thought of as a bully.

Hasn't Beveridge made the right moves so far? I think he's made a pretty good start in a very hard gig. He inherited a disaster.

 

[ErnieSigley]

As if 'being a bully' was his only bad coaching trait!

 

[Unnamed1]

When he was first recruited many on here said 'who knows if he's a good coach, we just need a gun development coach for a few years then someone else can take over and get us to finals'. And guess what? That's what is going to happen.

I agree with you, but to be honest, I would put very little of the development down to BMac, and more to the Monty types.

BMac's biggest failing is that he could not deliver in practice what he promised in the job interviews. Players' gripes were largely about his inability to deliver any feedback to players beyond a spray - he was disinterested and unwilling (or incapable) of telling players what he wanted from them. The last round of end of season interviews put the nail in his coffin, as other staff sat in on the "one on ones" between BMac and players, and actually witnessed what the discontent had been about. In some instances, he would deliver a spray, and then turn around in his chair and look out the window for the remainder of the one on one, leaving it up to Monty & co to try to decipher his spray. The assistant coaches had the same issues with him.

At least Eade could never be accused of leaving players in the woods about what he wanted (his game plan was just all attack and no defence which is good enough up until finals - that was his failing).

 

[gangsta deluxe]

The same Malthouse who has won 1 premiership in the last 15 years?

Yeah let's do what he does.

I know you know this, but it should serve to demonstrate the silliness of your statement.

He also got in to 4 grand finals in that time period (counting the draw as one). That is a top record in a competition with 16-18 teams.

If you offered me a premiership and 4 grand final appearances in the next 15 years I'd be all over it. We should take note of what he does. He is a professional with a huge amount of wisdom about the game.

FFS we haven't been in a grand final since 1961, the first grand final the Hawks won.....