Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Mr Meow]

I don’t believe Martin was super stiff to miss AA in 2023, but it could have easily gone his way… if he played 23 games and had 30-goals and not 20/25 then he probably gets in. His 2019 omission was ridiculous. He also could’ve easily been selected in 2015 : 21 Brownlow votes, second in B&F, 17th in coaches votes, one of only 5 players to average 25+ and kick 20+ goals.

So he ‘should’ have 5 x AA and with the rub of the green many others have had he ‘could’ have 6-7 x AA’s. And of course he was injured for large portions of 2021-22 whilst still in his prime that precluded him from AA opportunity.

And funnily enough, if your coaches vote ‘marker’ was 2.6 average per game and not 2.9, Martin has 7 x elite seasons. Which doesn’t include 2023 which was elite with 23/1.3 (AA squad and 2nd in B&F) and doesn’t include 2014 when he made AA squad and averaged 25/1 (3rd in B&F) and doesn’t include 2011 (3rd in B&F) when he averaged 22/1.5 which no other player achieved.

So Martin has 10 elite seasons. 2021 was heading to an elite season but he was injured in R16.

I have Pendles on 10 x elite seasons. Danger on 9. GAJ on 10 (this includes his 14-game 2014).

This doesn’t rank the level of ‘eliteness’, as of course some seasons are more ‘elite’ than others. But if we are talking about being in the top 5-10% of players in similar roles across a season, that’s where it sits.


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If anything I set it a little low and 3.2 would be a stronger marker, which coincidentally wouldnt affect Ablett or Martins number of elite seasons.

2.6 votes a game isn't even cracking 60 votes in a full season (22 games, none missed).Most players will miss one or two so more like 50-55 votes. So we are talking a range around or just below Cripps 2023, Prestia 2022, J.Kelly 2021, Angus Brayshaw 2018, Armitage 2015, Nathan Jones 2014.

2.9 gives me this list. I'm rather satisfied with it.

9 Ablett
8 Pendlebury
7 Dangerfield, S.Mitchell, Selwood
6 Bontempelli*
5 Martin, Fyfe, Swan, J.Kennedy
4 Neale*, Oliver*, Petracca*, Merrett*, Beams
3 Cotchin, Watson, Boak, Gray, Hannebery, Cripps*

Yours will have the Nathan Jones 2014 type selections. We've just got different standards I guess.

 

[Noidnadroj]

If anything I set it a little low and 3.2 would be a stronger marker, which coincidentally wouldnt affect Ablett or Martins number of elite seasons.

2.6 votes a game isn't even cracking 60 votes in a full season (22 games, none missed).Most players will miss one or two so more like 50-55 votes. So we are talking a range around or just below Cripps 2023, Prestia 2022, J.Kelly 2021, Angus Brayshaw 2018, Armitage 2015, Nathan Jones 2014.

2.9 gives me this list. I'm rather satisfied with it.

9 Ablett
8 Pendlebury
7 Dangerfield, S.Mitchell, Selwood
6 Bontempelli*
5 Martin, Fyfe, Swan, J.Kennedy
4 Neale*, Oliver*, Petracca*, Merrett*, Beams
3 Cotchin, Watson, Boak, Gray, Hannebery, Cripps*

Yours will have the Nathan Jones 2014 type selections. We've just got different standards I guess.

No, not standards, you’re using a single deciding metric which is of course lunacy … I’m not suggesting coaches vote average should be the only metric, that’s you.

Answer me this…. was Libba elite in 2023?

Second in player ratings across the competition, 3rd in contested possessions, first in clearances, 2nd in groundball gets, 2nd in pressure acts, AA squad… but alas, a 2.76 coaches vote average so no, not elite despite basically every single metric for an inside mid being elite.

Maybe back to the drawing board on using a single metric to decide elite or otherwise as it seems to have a few holes in it.


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[Mr Meow]

No, not standards, you’re using a single deciding metric which is of course lunacy … I’m not suggesting coaches vote average should be the only metric, that’s you.

Answer me this…. was Libba elite in 2023?

Second in player ratings across the competition, 3rd in contested possessions, first in clearances, 2nd in groundball gets, 2nd in pressure acts, AA squad… but alas, a 2.76 coaches vote average so no, not elite despite basically every single metric for an inside mid being elite.

Maybe back to the drawing board on using a single metric to decide elite or otherwise as it seems to have a few holes in it.


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Libba 2023: 58 coaches votes, 17 Brownlow votes as a midfielder and high in the stats you mentioned but with weaknesses in other areas. More elite than Martin 2023 but behind most, if not all, of the 15-20 midfielders ahead of him on coaches votes.

After all the new points you raise I have Martin at...5 elite seasons.

 

[Caligo]

After all the new points you raise I have Martin at...5 elite seasons.

Martin still has time to reach 13 elite seasons like Lethal if he plays for another 8 years.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I don’t believe Martin was super stiff to miss AA in 2023, but it could have easily gone his way… if he played 23 games and had 30-goals and not 20/25 then he probably gets in. His 2019 omission was ridiculous. He also could’ve easily been selected in 2015 : 21 Brownlow votes, second in B&F, 17th in coaches votes, one of only 5 players to average 25+ and kick 20+ goals.

So he ‘should’ have 5 x AA and with the rub of the green many others have had he ‘could’ have 6-7 x AA’s. And of course he was injured for large portions of 2021-22 whilst still in his prime that precluded him from AA opportunity.

And funnily enough, if your coaches vote ‘marker’ was 2.6 average per game and not 2.9, Martin has 7 x elite seasons. Which doesn’t include 2023 which was elite with 23/1.3 (AA squad and 2nd in B&F) and doesn’t include 2014 when he made AA squad and averaged 25/1 (3rd in B&F) and doesn’t include 2011 (3rd in B&F) when he averaged 22/1.5 which no other player achieved.

So Martin has 10 elite seasons. 2021 was heading to an elite season but he was injured in R16.

I have Pendles on 10 x elite seasons. Danger on 9. GAJ on 10 (this includes his 14-game 2014).

This doesn’t rank the level of ‘eliteness’, as of course some seasons are more ‘elite’ than others. But if we are talking about being in the top 5-10% of players in similar roles across a season, that’s where it sits.


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When it comes to levels of eliteness for any player's season, Dusty's 2017 kicks them all into a cocked hat. Nobody is matching that is this lifetime, the one before it, or the next one.

• Brownlow with record votes
• Coach MVP with record votes
• 20.86 season average player rating higher than any recorded by a player whose season included finals
• Average finals player rating of 24.1 - the highest recorded
• 2nd highest Grand Final player rating ever recorded of 30.9
• Highest finals coaches votes average per game ever given to a player and thus the Ayres Medal
• B & F
• Premiership, 37 year drought breaking
• Norm Smith medal
• AA selection
• higher season ave goals + assists than any other Brownlow Medallist/Coach MVP
• higher finals goals + assists than any Ayres or Smith Medallist who is not Dustin Martin
  
  
  

 

[Mr Meow]

When it comes to levels of eliteness for any player's season, Dusty's 2017 kicks them all into a cocked hat. Nobody is matching that is this lifetime, the one before it, or the next one.

• Brownlow with record votes
• Coach MVP with record votes
• 20.86 season average player rating higher than any recorded by a player whose season included finals
• Average finals player rating of 24.1 - the highest recorded
• 2nd highest Grand Final player rating ever recorded of 30.9
• Highest finals coaches votes average per game ever given to a player and thus the Ayres Medal
• B & F
• Premiership, 37 year drought breaking
• Norm Smith medal
• AA selection
• higher season ave goals + assists than any other Brownlow Medallist/Coach MVP
• higher finals goals + assists than any Ayres or Smith Medallist who is not Dustin Martin
  
  
  

He's given up the argument so now is back to pumping up 2017. Another fantastically transparent concession.

 

[Mr Meow]

Martin still has time to reach 13 elite seasons like Lethal if he plays for another 8 years.

He's in great company with Fyfe, J.Kennedy and co. Only a couple to reach Danger or 4/5 to reach GAJ. I didn't include forwards but I imagine Franklin would be up around 8-10 as well.

 

[Caligo]

He's in great company with Fyfe, J.Kennedy and co. Only a couple to reach Danger or 4/5 to reach GAJ. I didn't include forwards but I imagine Franklin would be up around 8-10 as well.

Jezza and greene would have a decent number I would imagine. Hopefully with more to come.

Bont would be hoping for at least a few more too.

 

[simba_]

nope

 

[Noidnadroj]

Libba 2023: 58 coaches votes, 17 Brownlow votes as a midfielder and high in the stats you mentioned but with weaknesses in other areas. More elite than Martin 2023 but behind most, if not all, of the 15-20 midfielders ahead of him on coaches votes.

After all the new points you raise I have Martin at...5 elite seasons.

Libba plays as an inside mid, so not sure what ‘inside mid’ elements his game was lacking in …???. Can you provide for me a list of inside mids you believe had superior 2023 seasons to Libba?

And if you genuinely believe 15-20 mids had better seasons than Libba then I feel better about your Martin judgements, as you either don’t watch much football or you don’t understand it.



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[Mr Meow]

Libba plays as an inside mid, so not sure what ‘inside mid’ elements his game was lacking in …???. Can you provide for me a list of inside mids you believe had superior 2023 seasons to Libba?

And if you genuinely believe 15-20 mids had better seasons than Libba then I feel better about your Martin judgements, as you either don’t watch much football or you don’t understand it.



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This isn't the gotcha you think it is. Libba remained a niche pick in the AA thread. Most people's sides had around 12 mids. Do the maths. The umpires, coaches and AA panel all agreed. With the best player in the league (Bont) and what is now an exciting forward mix, they still couldn't make finals. Libba was around Taranto level, which is still very good. And better than Martin in 2023. He didn't have as much impact as the midfielders who received more votes and/or made the AA team.

 

[Mr Meow]

The Libba type inside bulls (with weaknesses) who have had truly elite seasons over the years have been J.Kennedy, Boak, Selwood, Cripps, Neale, Dangerfield and Oliver. Serong this season another good example.

8 goals over the season, 6 SIs a game and 3 clangers per game are the ratio of a scrappy player. If Bulldogs had tonnes of outside class he was feeding it to it would be different. But a more well rounded midfielder alongside Bont would benefit them more. Even Treloar has more SIs.

He was on the cusp but not quite there. Probably a smidge behind Tom Green

12

Tom Green

Age

24

Ht

192cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.5

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

7.3

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.3

4star

CL

2.8

4star

D

11.5

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

7.3

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.3

3star

CL

2.8

4star

D

11.5

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

7.3

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.3

4star

CL

2.8

5star

who became a 50/50 call on elite this year.

 

[Noidnadroj]

This isn't the gotcha you think it is. Libba remained a niche pick in the AA thread. Most people's sides had around 12 mids. Do the maths. The umpires, coaches and AA panel all agreed. With the best player in the league (Bont) and what is now an exciting forward mix, they still couldn't make finals. Libba was around Taranto level, which is still very good. And better than Martin in 2023. He didn't have as much impact as the midfielders who received more votes and/or made the AA team.

You didn’t answer the question (you went on a tangent and still managed to get Dusty into a discussion around Libba and inside-mids…??).

What inside-mids had a better year than Libba in 2023? What’s your list?


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[werdna78]

You didn’t answer the question (you went on a tangent and still managed to get Dusty into a discussion around Libba and inside-mids…??).

What inside-mids had a better year than Libba in 2023? What’s your list?


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If you are using Libba, as a comparative player in "Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT?" thread, you have already lost. There are only 2 posters in hear arguing for and everyone else arguing against.

IMO, posters who are giving this thread oxygen, are wasting their time, as no matter what statistics you pull out, the reply will be a confirmation of the posters biased opinion.

 

[Mr Meow]

You didn’t answer the question (you went on a tangent and still managed to get Dusty into a discussion around Libba and inside-mids…??).

What inside-mids had a better year than Libba in 2023? What’s your list?


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You're trying to be cute and make it a more niche category. But even catering to that: All of these midfielders spent huge amount of time at stoppages and averaged over 10 contested possessions (most over 12) per game. I've excluded midfielders who are much more outside - Dawson, Rozee, Merrett, Daicos, Walsh, Sinclair and the wingmen. If you just included them all in one group - midfielders - then there would be another 6-8 players to add (their AA selections once again bore that out).

All of these contested midfielders had better overall seasons (including finals), and by that I mean more consistent impact on games, than Libba:

Bontempelli
Petracca
Butters
Serong
Neale
Anderson
Viney
Coniglio
T.Kelly
Green

Next tier (including Libba)

Cerra
Cripps
De Goey
Laird
Liberatore
Newcombe
B.Crouch
Dunkley
Taranto
T.Mitchell
Parish
Rowell
Warner

T.Miller and C.Oliver in a normal year would be on that first list as well.

Libba was part of a midfield that outside of Bontempelli bombed blindly for territory and often had their scrappy entries slingshotted for opposition goals. He and Bontempelli didn't work as effectively as many other duos, including the ones that went deep in September. Very low scoring metric to turnover ratio in particular was a serious weakness in his game.

Let me guess, you had Liberatore unlucky to miss out on the Brownlow, Players MVP and Coaches Association award. If you combine Brownlow, Coaches votes and SIs across these midfielders every single one in the first list surpassed Libba - inside players that had bigger impact. The second list are a fairly tight field and not much separates them really. Did Libba actually have a better season than the likes of Laird, De Goey, Newcombe, Dunkley and Taranto? I'm not so sure.

 

[blaisee]

If you are using Libba, as a comparative player in "Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT?" thread, you have already lost. There are only 2 posters in hear arguing for and everyone else arguing against.

IMO, posters who are giving this thread oxygen, are wasting their time, as no matter what statistics you pull out, the reply will be a confirmation of the posters biased opinion.

100%

You are all triggered

 

[PhatBoy]

100%

You are all triggered

Another typically deep intellectual dive from Big Footy’s resident standard-bearer for analysis.

How was your internship at NASA?

 

[Noidnadroj]

You're trying to be cute and make it a more niche category. But even catering to that: All of these midfielders spent huge amount of time at stoppages and averaged over 10 contested possessions (most over 12) per game. I've excluded midfielders who are much more outside - Dawson, Rozee, Merrett, Daicos, Walsh, Sinclair and the wingmen. If you just included them all in one group - midfielders - then there would be another 6-8 players to add (their AA selections once again bore that out).

All of these contested midfielders had better overall seasons (including finals), and by that I mean more consistent impact on games, than Libba:

Bontempelli
Petracca
Butters
Serong
Neale
Anderson
Viney
Coniglio
T.Kelly
Green

Next tier (including Libba)

Cerra
Cripps
De Goey
Laird
Liberatore
Newcombe
B.Crouch
Dunkley
Taranto
T.Mitchell
Parish
Rowell
Warner

T.Miller and C.Oliver in a normal year would be on that first list as well.

Libba was part of a midfield that outside of Bontempelli bombed blindly for territory and often had their scrappy entries slingshotted for opposition goals. He and Bontempelli didn't work as effectively as many other duos, including the ones that went deep in September. Very low scoring metric to turnover ratio in particular was a serious weakness in his game.

Let me guess, you had Liberatore unlucky to miss out on the Brownlow, Players MVP and Coaches Association award. If you combine Brownlow, Coaches votes and SIs across these midfielders every single one in the first list surpassed Libba - inside players that had bigger impact. The second list are a fairly tight field and not much separates them really. Did Libba actually have a better season than the likes of Laird, De Goey, Newcombe, Dunkley and Taranto? I'm not so sure.

Libba’s 2023 was elite - he made the AA team and nearly all experts said he and Viney were unluckiest omissions. Maybe instead of talking intangibles we look at some facts:

For the 36 players who averaged 10+ CP’s in 2023 and played 15+ games:

Libba:

Player Rating: 2nd
Centre Clearances: 7th
Stoppage clearances: 1st
Total Clearances: 1st
Contested: 3rd
DE%: 5th
Kicking Efficiency: 5th
Groundball gets: 2nd
Pressure Acts: 2nd
Disposals / Turnover : 4th best
Disposals / Clanger : 2nd best
Goals + Goal Assists: 8th
Tackles: 9th

He led the competition in clearances and contested possessions, yet he was still 5th in DE% and 5th in Kicking Efficiency %, as well as top-4 in both disposals per turnover and disposals per clanger.

So given his ball use was outstanding then your ‘scrappy’ line doesn’t correlate to any of the facts. Maybe you were thinking of his old man??

Then Libba v Viney:

Player Rating : 16.77 v 11.77
Disposals: 27.3 v 25.6
Clearances: 8 v 5
SI’s: 6 v 5.1
Goals + GA’s: 1.2 v 1.0
CP’s: 14.5 v 11.9
Tackles: 6 v 5.9
Pressure acts: 29.7 v 23.7
KE%: 63.5 v 49.5 … wowsers !!
DE%: 73.9 v 61.0 (Viney 34th of 36)
Disposals / Clanger : 2nd v 28th
Disposal / turnover: 4th v LAST …

So Viney was the worst user of the ball of all contested midfielders and Libba basically the best, but you’ve got Libba on the rung below I assume because Demons won more games….

Viney was 33rd of 36 for player ratings.

It’s very obvious the Dogs inability to win games wasn’t Libba’s fault as he couldn’t have done any more than he did as an inside midfielder.

Libba was widely regarded as the unluckiest AA omission - but even without AA, as one of the top contested midfielders in the league his season was easily elite.


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[Morro]

Libba’s 2023 was elite - he made the AA team and nearly all experts said he and Viney were unluckiest omissions. Maybe instead of talking intangibles we look at some facts:

For the 36 players who averaged 10+ CP’s in 2023 and played 15+ games:

Libba:

Player Rating: 2nd
Centre Clearances: 7th
Stoppage clearances: 1st
Total Clearances: 1st
Contested: 3rd
DE%: 5th
Kicking Efficiency: 5th
Groundball gets: 2nd
Pressure Acts: 2nd
Disposals / Turnover : 4th best
Disposals / Clanger : 2nd best
Goals + Goal Assists: 8th
Tackles: 9th

He led the competition in clearances and contested possessions, yet he was still 5th in DE% and 5th in Kicking Efficiency %, as well as top-4 in both disposals per turnover and disposals per clanger.

So given his ball use was outstanding then your ‘scrappy’ line doesn’t correlate to any of the facts. Maybe you were thinking of his old man??

Then Libba v Viney:

Player Rating : 16.77 v 11.77
Disposals: 27.3 v 25.6
Clearances: 8 v 5
SI’s: 6 v 5.1
Goals + GA’s: 1.2 v 1.0
CP’s: 14.5 v 11.9
Tackles: 6 v 5.9
Pressure acts: 29.7 v 23.7
KE%: 63.5 v 49.5 … wowsers !!
DE%: 73.9 v 61.0 (Viney 34th of 36)
Disposals / Clanger : 2nd v 28th
Disposal / turnover: 4th v LAST …

So Viney was the worst user of the ball of all contested midfielders and Libba basically the best, but you’ve got Libba on the rung below I assume because Demons won more games….

Viney was 33rd of 36 for player ratings.

It’s very obvious the Dogs inability to win games wasn’t Libba’s fault as he couldn’t have done any more than he did as an inside midfielder.

Libba was widely regarded as the unluckiest AA omission - but even without AA, as one of the top contested midfielders in the league his season was easily elite.


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dem pesky facts

 

[Mr Meow]

Libba’s 2023 was elite - he made the AA team and nearly all experts said he and Viney were unluckiest omissions. Maybe instead of talking intangibles we look at some facts:

For the 36 players who averaged 10+ CP’s in 2023 and played 15+ games:

Libba:

Player Rating: 2nd
Centre Clearances: 7th
Stoppage clearances: 1st
Total Clearances: 1st
Contested: 3rd
DE%: 5th
Kicking Efficiency: 5th
Groundball gets: 2nd
Pressure Acts: 2nd
Disposals / Turnover : 4th best
Disposals / Clanger : 2nd best
Goals + Goal Assists: 8th
Tackles: 9th

He led the competition in clearances and contested possessions, yet he was still 5th in DE% and 5th in Kicking Efficiency %, as well as top-4 in both disposals per turnover and disposals per clanger.

So given his ball use was outstanding then your ‘scrappy’ line doesn’t correlate to any of the facts. Maybe you were thinking of his old man??

Then Libba v Viney:

Player Rating : 16.77 v 11.77
Disposals: 27.3 v 25.6
Clearances: 8 v 5
SI’s: 6 v 5.1
Goals + GA’s: 1.2 v 1.0
CP’s: 14.5 v 11.9
Tackles: 6 v 5.9
Pressure acts: 29.7 v 23.7
KE%: 63.5 v 49.5 … wowsers !!
DE%: 73.9 v 61.0 (Viney 34th of 36)
Disposals / Clanger : 2nd v 28th
Disposal / turnover: 4th v LAST …

So Viney was the worst user of the ball of all contested midfielders and Libba basically the best, but you’ve got Libba on the rung below I assume because Demons won more games….

Viney was 33rd of 36 for player ratings.

It’s very obvious the Dogs inability to win games wasn’t Libba’s fault as he couldn’t have done any more than he did as an inside midfielder.

Libba was widely regarded as the unluckiest AA omission - but even without AA, as one of the top contested midfielders in the league his season was easily elite.


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More elite than Martin 2023. Still not in the AA side and you don't get to say whether he was closer to number 23 or 44.

Libba vs Viney

Coaches votes: 58 vs 65
Brownlow votes: 17 vs 24
B&F: 2nd in the 9th placed team vs 2nd in the 4th placed team

Still, I concede that Viney is also a turnover merchant with relatively low scoreboard impact and part of a midfield that struggles to deliver inside 50 effectively outside of its star player (Petracca in this case) so fits with your Liberatore and Taranto's more than your Butters, Petracca, Bontempelli's etc.

Thank you for correcting me on Viney - ironically the person you said was unluckiest besides Libba.

 

[Noidnadroj]

More elite than Martin 2023. Still not in the AA side and you don't get to say whether he was closer to number 23 or 44.

Libba vs Viney

Coaches votes: 58 vs 65
Brownlow votes: 17 vs 24
B&F: 2nd in the 9th placed team vs 2nd in the 4th placed team

Still, I concede that Viney is also a turnover merchant with relatively low scoreboard impact and part of a midfield that struggles to deliver inside 50 effectively outside of its star player (Petracca in this case) so fits with your Liberatore and Taranto's more than your Butters, Petracca, Bontempelli's etc.

Thank you for correcting me on Viney - ironically the person you said was unluckiest besides Libba.

So when Martin came third in the Brownlow and was third in the coaches votes in 2016 and won the B&F and made AA, you concede he was the 3rd best player in the comp that season? Nice!



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[Mr Meow]

So when Martin came third in the Brownlow and was third in the coaches votes in 2016 and won the B&F and made AA, you concede he was the 3rd best player in the comp that season? Nice!



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2016 is one of Martin's 5 elite seasons and probably his 2nd best Home and Away season. Glad we have actually come full circle again.

 

[Noidnadroj]

2016 is one of Martin's 5 elite seasons and probably his 2nd best Home and Away season. Glad we have actually come full circle again.

In 2015 Martin made AA squad, second in B&F, was 14th in the coaches votes with 61 (polled in 10 games) and was 7th in Brownlow with 21 votes (polled in 10 games).

Averaged 26.2 touches and a goal a game.

I wonder if there’s any other players in the last 20-years who’d miss ‘elite’ status with a top-15 in coaches votes, top-7 in Brownlow, AA squad and top-2 finish in B&F - plus elite stats (only 3 other players averaged 25/1 that season)

It’s actually probably not a very big list……


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[Mr Meow]

In 2015 Martin made AA squad, second in B&F, was 14th in the coaches votes with 61 (polled in 10 games) and was 7th in Brownlow with 21 votes (polled in 10 games).

Averaged 26.2 touches and a goal a game.

I wonder if there’s any other players in the last 20-years who’d miss ‘elite’ status with a top-15 in coaches votes, top-7 in Brownlow, AA squad and top-2 finish in B&F - plus elite stats (only 3 other players averaged 25/1 that season)

It’s actually probably not a very big list……


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After these points it is decided...5 elite seasons for Dustin Martin.

2.9+ coaches votes for midfielders per game gives me this list. I'm rather satisfied with it.

9 Ablett
8 Pendlebury
7 Dangerfield, S.Mitchell, Selwood
6 Bontempelli*
5 Martin, Fyfe, Swan, J.Kennedy
4 Neale*, Oliver*, Petracca*, Merrett*, Beams
3 Cotchin, Watson, Boak, Gray, Hannebery, Cripps*

Yours will have the Nathan Jones 2014 type selections. We've just got different standards I guess. Unfortunately for you, neutrals standards tend to be closer to my system than yours as 4-5 elite seasons for Martin is indeed the consensus. A select group of Tigers fans disagree and that's why they have a wonderful sub-forum to engage in.

 

[Noidnadroj]

After these points it is decided...5 elite seasons for Dustin Martin.

2.9+ coaches votes for midfielders per game gives me this list. I'm rather satisfied with it.

9 Ablett
8 Pendlebury
7 Dangerfield, S.Mitchell, Selwood
6 Bontempelli*
5 Martin, Fyfe, Swan, J.Kennedy
4 Neale*, Oliver*, Petracca*, Merrett*, Beams
3 Cotchin, Watson, Boak, Gray, Hannebery, Cripps*

Yours will have the Nathan Jones 2014 type selections. We've just got different standards I guess. Unfortunately for you, neutrals standards tend to be closer to my system than yours as 4-5 elite seasons for Martin is indeed the consensus. A select group of Tigers fans disagree and that's why they have a wonderful sub-forum to engage in.

Bartel = 1. I thought he was better than that. Maybe he was overrated a touch.

And number of elite finals players from 2016-23?

1 = Dustin Martin.

Nobody with a decent number of finals comes close to a 2.9 average.

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