Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Caligo]

You better go and tell Lance "Buddy" Franklin that the 108 goals he kicked for the Hawthorn Football Club in 2008 was a Caligo colloquial outlier and should never be quoted as if it represents his actual abilities.

I would if he hadn't also kicked 1000 goals when nobody else has been close in ages. But anyone saying 100 goals a season is representative of buddy's early career is equally stupid.

It is similarly an outlier (even if not mathematically so).

The truly extraordinary thing about his hundred goals though is nobody else has gotten anywhere near it since. He truly is the AFL goat, along with GAJ. Poor Dusty is miles behind.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

This isn't a gotcha or anything, it's a genuine question.

With this in mind do you find Ablett's coaches and Brownlow votes averages and league MVP placements as more impressive at the lowly Suns 2011-2014 or the high flying Cats 2007-2010?

It was sad that Ablett went to the GC imo. The cats should have paid him more and kept him.
I call Ablett's GC years the 'lost years'.

 

[RUNVS]

It was sad that Ablett went to the GC imo. The cats should have paid him more and kept him.
I call Ablett's GC years the 'lost years'.

Hardly the lost years. He was the best midfielder in the competition for much of his time at Gold Coast.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Hardly the lost years. He was the best midfielder in the competition for much of his time at Gold Coast.

In inconsequential games though.

 

[RUNVS]

In inconsequential games though.

Hardly. If anything it is harder when you are the only really good player in the team. Harder to show what you can do.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I would if he hadn't also kicked 1000 goals when nobody else has been close in ages. But anyone saying 100 goals a season is representative of buddy's early career is equally stupid.

It is similarly an outlier (even if not mathematically so).

The truly extraordinary thing about his hundred goals though is nobody else has gotten anywhere near it since. He truly is the AFL goat, along with GAJ. Poor Dusty is miles behind.

Lol, while you are so determined to talk yourself around in circles, there is no need for me to interfere with that process.

But this is interesting...

Lance Franklin 2nd season = 31 goals 6 goal assists.

Dustin Martin 2nd season = 33 goals 20 goal assists - while playing mainly midfield.

Whoever would have thought that?

 

[RUNVS]

Lol, while you are so determined to talk yourself around in circles, there is no need for me to interfere with that process.

But this is interesting...

Lance Franklin 2nd season = 31 goals 6 goal assists.

Dustin Martin 2nd season = 33 goals 20 goal assists - while playing mainly midfield.

Whoever would have thought that?

Yep, and Lance Franklin 8 All Australians and Dustin Martin 4.

 

[H00t]

Lol, while you are so determined to talk yourself around in circles, there is no need for me to interfere with that process.

But this is interesting...

Lance Franklin 2nd season = 31 goals 6 goal assists.

Dustin Martin 2nd season = 33 goals 20 goal assists - while playing mainly midfield.

Whoever would have thought that?

Jaidyn Stephenson 38 goals and 10 GA’s in his first season. He must be the GOAT. Kicked more goals in his first year than Martin has in any year he’s played.

This is how dumb your arguments are.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Jaidyn Stephenson 38 goals and 10 GA’s in his first season. He must be the GOAT. Kicked more goals in his first year than Martin has in any year he’s played.

This is how dumb your arguments are.

Jaidyn Stephenson having a good first season getting 7 coaches votes and a player rating of 8 in his debut season proves something about Dustin Martin being the GOAT or not.

And you are calling my arguments dumb, LOL.

 

[Caligo]

Lol, while you are so determined to talk yourself around in circles, there is no need for me to interfere with that process.

But this is interesting...

Lance Franklin 2nd season = 31 goals 6 goal assists.

Dustin Martin 2nd season = 33 goals 20 goal assists - while playing mainly midfield.

Whoever would have thought that?

Perfect example of Richmond supporters cherrypicking to create a false narrative.

 

[H00t]

Jaidyn Stephenson having a good first season getting 7 coaches votes and a player rating of 8 in his debut season proves something about Dustin Martin being the GOAT or not.

And you are calling my arguments dumb, LOL.

This thread has been filled with cherry-picked stats from you.

Thought I’d return the favour. I do find it amusing though how easily you take the bait.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

This thread has been filled with cherry-picked stats from you.

Thought I’d return the favour. I do find it amusing though how easily you take the bait.

If the bait was attached to a hook I would be more concerned.

 

[Mr Meow]

It was sad that Ablett went to the GC imo. The cats should have paid him more and kept him.
I call Ablett's GC years the 'lost years'.

Salary cap was stretched thin at that point to try and elevate one to superstar wages. It did stop others leaving before we wanted. Ultimately I think what went down with Bomber had a sizable effect too. If Scott came in 2010 even if it wasn't a successful season, maybe he'd have convinced Ablett to stay.

If Ablett had landed in a side like GWS he'd have probably won a premiership or two anyway (imagine '13 era Ablett in '16-'19 era GWS). Or if when he returned landed in a side that became Geelong 2022 (I've no doubt he'd have had a Stengle 2022 type season). Timing was never right for him once he left. Sometimes that's just how the cookie crumbles.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Perfect example of Richmond supporters cherrypicking to create a false narrative.

How can the pure unadulterated truth create a false narrative?

Dusty kicked more goals in his second season in the AFL than the Lance did. It happened, it is actual, there is nothing false about it.

 

[Mr Meow]

Just so we are discussing the same thing for once, maybe state your position on these questions...

Was Martin's 2nd season a genuinely elite season, or not?

And how many genuinely elite seasons has he played?

I phrased it in every response, that the claim early career Martin outscored peak Chapman is just a silly statement.

Your Martin/Frankin "gotcha" is similarly ludicrous.

Over their first four seasons Martin averaged in the low 30s for combined goals/assists while Franklin averaged 70.5. And its not even a slight on Martin as one was a roaming key forward and one was an attacking midfielder/forward hybrid. But you make yourself look like a moron with these logical stretches that equate Martin Vs Franklin year 2 only a better sample than the first four years of their career combined.

It would be like using Franklin 2008 vs Martin 2010 to highlight the gap. Impressive on paper but weak once you see how cherry picked these one off comparisons can be.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Yep, and Lance Franklin 8 All Australians and Dustin Martin 4.

Probably not much dispute about many of Lance's AA's. One of the all time great home and away merchants. Dusty should have more but never mind.

He will just have to console himself with his 10 goals from 2.8 Grand Finals at 3.6 goals per Grand Final. While playing mainly midfield.

The best full-time forward of the 21st century, Franklin, well not so much. 11 goals from 6 Grand Finals as a Full Forward, at 1.8 per Grand Final. Half the goals per Grand Final whilst playing more than twice as much forward. Which probably indicates Dusty is 5 times the goal kicker of big Lance when it comes to the big dance.

 

[Caligo]

How can the pure unadulterated truth create a false narrative?

Dusty kicked more goals in his second season in the AFL than the Lance did. It happened, it is actual, there is nothing false about it.

The pure unadulterated truth is that 11 times leigh got 20 and 2 and Dusty got none.

Dusty doesn't deserve to be in the conversation.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

The pure unadulterated truth is that 11 times leigh got 20 and 2 and Dusty got none.

Dusty doesn't deserve to be in the conversation.

You started so well there in this post Caligo. That is the truth. You didn't do much to reveal context, but what can we expect?

If Dusty didn't deserve to be in the conversation, then we wouldn't be here conversating about it for 200+ pages, would we?

And if you hadn't noticed from reading, there are more than a few things Dusty has achieved that Mr Matthews never quite managed.

 

[Caligo]

You started so well there in this post Caligo. That is the truth. You didn't do much to reveal context, but what can we expect?

If Dusty didn't deserve to be in the conversation, then we wouldn't be here conversating about it for 200+ pages, would we?

And if you hadn't noticed from reading, there are more than a few things Dusty has achieved that Mr Matthews never quite managed.

Context isn't fact. It is opinion. You said you wanted fact. That is fact. It is done. Zero 20 and 2s.

Not in the conversation.

 

[Mr Meow]

The pure unadulterated truth is that 11 times leigh got 20 and 2 and Dusty got none.

Dusty doesn't deserve to be in the conversation.

I mean this much is obvious but there's still bucketloads of merit in Franklin > Martin as well. Martin dominating scoring metrics in dominant grand final victories is certainly impressive but 1000 plus goals, 4 Coleman's as a roaming forward and 8 AAs (6 of them named at the hardest position to play on the ground: CHF) are a hefty bunch of accolades.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Surely Pendles has now gone past Martin in 21st Player GOAT ratings

1. Lance Franklin
2. Gary Ablett Jnr
3. Scott Pendlebury

10

Scott Pendlebury

Age

37

Ht

191cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

26.5

5star

K

13.2

5star

HB

13.3

5star

M

4.1

4star

T

4.9

5star

CL

4.9

5star

D

25.1

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

12.9

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

2.3

3star

CL

3.6

4star

D

12.4

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

4.8

4star

M

5.8

5star

T

2.6

4star

4. Chris Judd
5. Dustin Martin

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Context isn't fact. It is opinion. You said you wanted fact. That is fact. It is done. Zero 20 and 2s.

Not in the conversation.

If zero 20 and 2's is fact, and it is, then "not in the conversation" is clearly pure fiction. Because you are participating in a very long and involved conversation about it. Such that you need to invoke a player who retired before the fully professional era who was voted the greatest player of the 20th century to try to trump Dusty. Which shows very clearly that Dusty is indeed in the conversation.

By how many goals was Lethal Leigh Matthews outscored by the opposition teams on average in his Grand Finals again?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Surely Pendles has now gone past Martin in 21st Player GOAT ratings

1. Lance Franklin
2. Gary Ablett Jnr
3. Scott Pendlebury
4. Chris Judd
5. Dustin Martin

Does it count if you go past a player who has already lapped you?

 

[Seeds]

Lol, while you are so determined to talk yourself around in circles, there is no need for me to interfere with that process.

But this is interesting...

Lance Franklin 2nd season = 31 goals 6 goal assists.

Dustin Martin 2nd season = 33 goals 20 goal assists - while playing mainly midfield.

Whoever would have thought that?

Anyone who may of realised martin played 22 games vs franklins 14.

 

[Seeds]

Surely Pendles has now gone past Martin in 21st Player GOAT ratings

1. Lance Franklin
2. Gary Ablett Jnr
3. Scott Pendlebury
4. Chris Judd
5. Dustin Martin

Pendles hasnt gone past anyone. He aint in top 10 mids. Pendles was never good enough to be the best mid in the game. he just never reached that level. As such he is behind ablett, judd, dangerfield, fyfe, hird, voss, martin, r.harvey, bontempelli and probably oliver, cripps and petracca.

pendlebury is on j.selwoods level.