Roast Carlton beaten tactically (AGAIN)

[40yearBLUE]

You know why you get locked into slinging matches with people that go on and on for page upon page?

Because you're ALWAYS RIGHT.

Your point of view is never wrong, you don't listen to other peoples views and opinions. Yes you have your opinion we all know that, repeating it over and over again isn't going to help anyone.

Then counter it. Find some facts to back up your opinion like I do, make an argument instead of resorting to weak stuff like "because you are always right".

Instead you dont read properly what points are made and as a result argue stuff that just isnt there in the post you are retorting, as exampled in the debate about human physiology in another thread. I made absolutely zero reference to players pain thresholds and spoke purely of will having nothing to do with the ability to avoid concussion if hit in the wrong place, and you didnt like the fact that you had no valid argument so you just made one up, then when that was pointed out to you you whined on about a non existent fact not even in dispute.

BTW I look forward to your dissertation in the Lancet on the new human species that has evolved with the ability to will themselves out of injury at their fancy (superious footballus) you know...... bones miraculously heal, concussions risen from, ACL's walked out on the boundary.......should make for great reading.

So if you have issue with the points I make, go find your corroborating evidence and argue your points.

In short, stop being a lazy poster.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

On the contrary I am guided. I am guided by history and guided by statistics.

I am guided by the following:

- No side ever won a flag without a dominant midfield. Winning stoppages and hard ball gets and run and carry are the single uniting feature of every successful side. Some had gun forwards some didnt.

- To contrast gun forwards often win colemans from bottom sides. Look at this years best 3 teams, only 1 player from these 3 teams is in the top 10 leading goalkickers and he is a crumber (Milne) yet the leading gun KP goal kicker plays for a team likely to finish bottom 4. The top team at the moment doesnt even have a goalkicker in the top 20, how is that possible? In fact 2 teams in the bottom half each have 2 players in the top 10 goal kickers yet they are crap teams (WC and Bris) that rarely win. Why? Because they have aging or undeveloped mids.

- Gun midfields with hardened bodies and deep core fitness invariably have 100 games in them as an average, it took the Cats under Bomber 5 seasons of in and out of the 8 form to get to a competitive place, we have a similar future with a similar outcome.

I suggest you study history (results and why) and stats. Then perhaps you wouldnt need to resort to terms like nincompoop.

What if i can give you a recent example to prove you wrong? Sydney vs WCE is a great example where WCE had the all rampaging midfield and Sydney had the KPP players. Sydney won a flag on it. Just one example where midfield dominance didnt win out. Rampaging midfield is not the be all and end all...neither is just having lots of KPP players (just ask Essendon right now).

Aside from that, an absolute key plank of most of the sides that got to a flag and won a flag is that they had at least 1-2 game breaking KPP players, e.g. Brown, Goodes, Franklin, Scarlett etc... we dont have one even close to this class yet and we dont have one for either end of the field. Most of these sides had 2 KPPs of high quality, one at each end holding the overall structure together. If we look at our side we have hope Hendo and Bower might be those two. Other sides supporters would laugh at us right now so we 1) hope they become those game breakers, and 2) hope they dont ever get injured as by the time Hendo will devlop, Waite will be 30+ and almost gone!

My point if you care to actually read it carefully is that you need list balance over the entire field with a slight favor to midfielders. Not a torrent of mids to the detriment of all other positions. As an example, we have drafted Gibbs as a midfielder but are playing him as a perma HBF because we didnt draft a player who is naturally suited to that position. Well Gibbs despite all his silk doesnt have the hardness of a HBF...neither BTW does Russell. In the end more mids causes imbalance to the side.

BTW I'm very happy we drafted Gibbs but would rather see him play in the midfield than HBF...he is fillng in right now because Ratts doesnt have quality HBFers...so Gibb's is really a short term fix. If they draft another mid, how does that fix either our HBF problem or KPP problem that we have and that is a problem that is abundantly clear? I suppose you will say..use all our rookie picks on players rated 100+ who have 0.01% of making it to AFL grade for KPP players.

 

[40yearBLUE]

What if i can give you a recent example to prove you wrong? Sydney vs WCE is a great example where WCE had the all rampaging midfield and Sydney had the KPP players. Sydney won a flag on it. Just one example where midfield dominance didnt win out. Rampaging midfield is not the be all and end all...neither is just having lots of KPP players (just ask Essendon right now).

Aside from that, an absolute key plank of most of the sides that got to a flag and won a flag is that they had at least 1-2 game breaking KPP players, e.g. Brown, Goodes, Franklin, Scarlett etc... we dont have one even close to this class yet and we dont have one for either end of the field. Most of these sides had 2 KPPs of high quality, one at each end holding the overall structure together. If we look at our side we have hope Hendo and Bower might be those two. Other sides supporters would laugh at us right now so we 1) hope they become those game breakers, and 2) hope they dont ever get injured as by the time Hendo will devlop, Waite will be 30+ and almost gone!

My point if you care to actually read it carefully is that you need list balance over the entire field with a slight favor to midfielders. Not a torrent of mids to the detriment of all other positions. As an example, we have drafted Gibbs as a midfielder but are playing him as a perma HBF because we didnt draft a player who is naturally suited to that position. Well Gibbs despite all his silk doesnt have the hardness of a HBF...neither BTW does Russell. In the end more mids causes imbalance to the side.

BTW I'm very happy we drafted Gibbs but would rather see him play in the midfield than HBF...he is fillng in right now because Ratts doesnt have quality HBFers...so Gibb's is really a short term fix. If they draft another mid, how does that fix either our HBF problem or KPP problem that we have and that is a problem that is abundantly clear? I suppose you will say..use all our rookie picks on players rated 100+ who have 0.01% of making it to AFL grade for KPP players.

Its a nice try but it falls down on 2 key points. Firstly football is not a science at best it is an art. Science relies on repeatable tests of a proposition that result in the same outcome. So therefore in football there can be exceptions to the statistical rule, some side might one day dominate without a gun midfield. But they never have, to suggest Sydney did not have a gun midfield in 05 just because their final was a dour low scoring affair is fallacious to say the least with Kirk, Goodes, L Ablett, Okeefe, Dempster, Williams and Bolton all rotating through the middle. Please, that argument is very weak. We we would give for the 2005 midfield of Kirk, Goodes, Ablett and Okeefe in our team now. Williams was a veteran but a handy player. Nope, not even close to a convincing argument against the power of a dominant and powerful midfiled. That WC also had a good midfield only strengthens my argument further. So nice try, now to the second point.

You are desperately trying to change your argument from getting kp players on the list to preferring a speculative KP player at pick 12 over a no brainer top pick that fell to us by sheer poor recruiting of other teams. We were never ever in a million years even if our tallest player was Eddie going to take Talia over Lucas, nor would any other team. Do you think Adelaide would have hesitated in calling Lucas over Talia if we had of called Jetta? Nope, they might be struggling but they aint that dumb.

I have never said we dont need to have KP players nor have I said we have enough, what I have consistently argued is you dont speculate your first round pick for them. If they are a no brainer best player available that happens to be a tall great you grab em like we did with Kruze, but you dont speculate because the odds are against you. They take years, they are more susceptible to debilitating injury and their form takes years to fully access so what looked good at juniors turns to shit at top level. Nope this is a completely different argument you are now trying to craft for yourself.

 

[incog43]

Its a nice try but it falls down on 2 key points. Firstly football is not a science at best it is an art. Science relies on repeatable tests of a proposition that result in the same outcome. So therefore in football there can be exceptions to the statistical rule, some side might one day dominate without a gun midfield. But they never have, to suggest Sydney did not have a gun midfield in 05 just because their final was a dour low scoring affair is fallacious to say the least with Kirk, Goodes, L Ablett, Okeefe, Dempster, Williams and Bolton all rotating through the middle. Please, that argument is very weak. We we would give for the 2005 midfield of Kirk, Goodes, Ablett and Okeefe in our team now. Williams was a veteran but a handy player. Nope, not even close to a convincing argument against the power of a dominant and powerful midfiled. That WC also had a good midfield only strengthens my argument further. So nice try, now to the second point.

You are desperately trying to change your argument from getting kp players on the list to preferring a speculative KP player at pick 12 over a no brainer top pick that fell to us by sheer poor recruiting of other teams. We were never ever in a million years even if our tallest player was Eddie going to take Talia over Lucas, nor would any other team. Do you think Adelaide would have hesitated in calling Lucas over Talia if we had of called Jetta? Nope, they might be struggling but they aint that dumb.

I have never said we dont need to have KP players nor have I said we have enough, what I have consistently argued is you dont speculate your first round pick for them. If they are a no brainer best player available that happens to be a tall great you grab em like we did with Kruze, but you dont speculate because the odds are against you. They take years, they are more susceptible to debilitating injury and their form takes years to fully access so what looked good at juniors turns to shit at top level. Nope this is a completely different argument you are now trying to craft for yourself.

Sorry, what was that?

 

[Tanks_Alot]

On the contrary I am guided. I am guided by history and guided by statistics.

I am guided by the following:

- No side ever won a flag without a dominant midfield. Winning stoppages and hard ball gets and run and carry are the single uniting feature of every successful side. Some had gun forwards some didnt.

So I guess that makes you 115yearBLUE because you've seen every single team win a flag. Right?

- To contrast gun forwards often win colemans from bottom sides. Look at this years best 3 teams, only 1 player from these 3 teams is in the top 10 leading goalkickers and he is a crumber (Milne) yet the leading gun KP goal kicker plays for a team likely to finish bottom 4. The top team at the moment doesnt even have a goalkicker in the top 20, how is that possible? In fact 2 teams in the bottom half each have 2 players in the top 10 goal kickers yet they are crap teams (WC and Bris) that rarely win. Why? Because they have aging or undeveloped mids.

- Gun midfields with hardened bodies and deep core fitness invariably have 100 games in them as an average, it took the Cats under Bomber 5 seasons of in and out of the 8 form to get to a competitive place, we have a similar future with a similar outcome.

I suggest you study history (results and why) and stats. Then perhaps you wouldnt need to resort to terms like nincompoop.

That's coz they don't rely on one or two forwards to kick the bulk of their goals. The Cats have many talented avenues in JPod, Hawkins, Mooney, Ottens coupled with very talented medium forwards (something we don't have either) in Johnson and Chapman and also Ablett this year too. Their crumbers are Varcoe, Stokes and Byrnes. With all of those options of course they're not gonna have anyone in the top 10 goal kickers. You can put it down to tactics. BTW had Reiwoldt not missed most of the year do you seriously think the Saints would've lost as many games as they have? And do you really think he wouldn't be in the top 10 goal kickers?

Our problem is the mids don't have any confidence in their targets. That's why they don't move the ball quick and hold play up. They're looking for the right target. Two problems with that: 1) The F50 gets flooded whilst they hold play up and 2) They can't hit the pass because when the F50 is flooded it's too difficult. Setant and Hendo don't take anywhere near enough contested marks to spark the confidence of the mids. Hence the drop in pressure and confidence.

 

[parrot]

Don't think it's a tactical thing. It's clearly a team confidence issue. Players are playing worried. Fighting spot fires, too worried about stuffing up, rather than taking the game on. Worried individuals rather than a cohesive team. The players are feeling the heat of expectation. It's an interesting situation. We still have the best talent in the comp, and mostly have the same players that smashed last years grand finalists to pieces. It's going to be a great challenge to turn it around. I just see it as an important part of the development of this talented young side. Life's easy when you're up and running and smashing the opposition. But the real challenge is getting things back on track after a bad run. Hopefully the turnaround can start at Weagleland.

 

[40yearBLUE]

So I guess that makes you 115yearBLUE because you've seen every single team win a flag. Right?

Yep top reply this one OK I will correct it, no team of the modern era has won without an elite midfield. Happy now?


Our problem is the mids don't have any confidence in their targets. That's why they don't move the ball quick and hold play up. They're looking for the right target. Two problems with that: 1) The F50 gets flooded whilst they hold play up and 2) They can't hit the pass because when the F50 is flooded it's too difficult. Setant and Hendo don't take anywhere near enough contested marks to spark the confidence of the mids. Hence the drop in pressure and confidence.

And this......our players dont have any confidence in our forwards ability to kick goals, this one is classic. So let me see, they didnt seem to have any issue with or lack of confidence in that same group of forwards 2 months ago, but in the meantime they have totally lost what confidence they did have.....where do you get this stuff? Where is your evidence? Did they tell you?

It has nothing to do with players lacking confidence in other players abilities. None. Nor lack of confidence in our "game plan" or lack of confidence in our "coaches".

I agree it is possible players may not have confidence in their own ability to hit targets but I dont place much credence in this theory either, my theory is that the players are losing touch with the fitness required of hard running teams, because the core of our squad does not have the condition that can only come from about 5 preseasons and 100 plus games and when we get that plus fill a few deficiencies with some more trades and picks we will have the gun team we all want for all the season and finals.

 

[Bluebear]

And this......our players dont have any confidence in our forwards ability to kick goals, this one is classic. So let me see, they didnt seem to have any issue with or lack of confidence in that same group of forwards 2 months ago, but in the meantime they have totally lost what confidence they did have.....where do you get this stuff? Where is your evidence? Did they tell you?

It has nothing to do with players lacking confidence in other players abilities. None. Nor lack of confidence in our "game plan" or lack of confidence in our "coaches".

Quite right.

In fact, I put it to you that the current slump came from the exact opposite.

Over-confidence.

We had just knocked of the Cats, Saints, and Power, who at the time were travelling pretty well. Both Gibbs and Yarran (albeit with prompting) mentioned grand finals in the media. IMO we stopped working hard at this moment. Our lack of need for more effort was reinforced by a softer draw for a dew weeks, but any team willing to work hard for 4 Q's put us away without much of a whimper.

Then, after the Roos and Freo losses, panic has set in a bit. Some self preservation has come into play and we are caught between running hard to create and sticking with a man, and basically we are stuck halfway between the two.

We aren't locking down, and we aren't running forwards with freedom. So we are trying to create things with static kicks......which quite simply we are not skilled or good enough contested footy wise to do regularly.

I agree it is possible players may not have confidence in their own ability to hit targets but I dont place much credence in this theory either, my theory is that the players are losing touch with the fitness required of hard running teams, because the core of our squad does not have the condition that can only come from about 5 preseasons and 100 plus games and when we get that plus fill a few deficiencies with some more trades and picks we will have the gun team we all want for all the season and finals.

I think, despite the recent form, we have most of the cattle that can win our next flag.
Cast your mid back to the Cats circa 2004-2006. Thompson was about to be sacked. The players showed glimpses of brilliance, but plenty of times they rolled over when challenged.

What happened? They didn't take the easy way out and sack the coach. Had they done this I have little doubt the players wouldn't have done what they did and they wouldn't be the champion team they are today.
The players woke up. Realised they had to work much harder.....the soft Cats very quickly became one of the hardest teams at the ball in footy. This also of course coupled with them maturing physically and with experience...........but the Leopards changed their spots, and they haven't looked back.

If we do what we did with Pagan again, the players will be let off the hook, because sacking the coach says to them, your fine, it's not your fault.

Bugger that. It is their fault. Ratten can't kick the ball for them. He can't make them want to run as hard into defence as they do when they might be a chance of a score.

That has to be a resolve driven from within the playing group. Try and drive it externally and it just won't stick. For those asking why they don't see fire and brimstone from Ratten and Judd....this is why. If you have to externally motivate players every week to try and do what they have to do you will never sustain it.

It must come from within each individual to want to do everything they can at every contest to do the best thing for their team mate.

We haven't had this epiphany yet. We may not. The Dogs haven't. That's why they won't win the flag. The Cats had it. The Saints and Hawks had it. I think the Pies have had it this year. Far less "highlights reel" and a lot more blocks, spoils, bumps, and gut running...........they have seen the light and are working hard for each other.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Firstly football is not a science at best it is an art. Science relies on repeatable tests of a proposition that result in the same outcome. So therefore in football there can be exceptions to the statistical rule, some side might one day dominate

I seriously laughed out loud...a lot . What are you taking late at night to spew forth this type of stuff?

With the other point of our mids losing confidence in our fwd 50 targets ...this represents only half the truth. Everyone keeps banging on about how we were ok earlier in the season but forget that since that time, opposition teams have done their homework and strangled our fwd 50 targets...after doing this..then our players confidence went downhill across the board...not before. The cause itself is not the players confidence...the cause is opposition teams planning versus our side...this beat our fwd 50 targets and then they lost their confidence. People are mixing up cause and effect here.

People also need to remember that both Geelong and Saint Kilda didnt respect us so didnt do any extra planning against us. Once we won that respect the other mid table teams started to respect us and worked on a strategy to counter the 3 amigos and close down Setanta. If we played Saint Kilda and Geelong again..they would def implement a diff strategy (flooding our fwd 50) to beat us right now...Carlton are only dangerous in one modern day game scenario...if you let the game stay open with lots of run and flow...clog up our fwd 50 and the 3 amigos and show a little respect to Hendo/Setanta and we're dead.

Players are trying as hard as they can with maybe a little less hardness than they should be showing. Our opposition's strategy along with our own poor disposal makes us look embarassing at times. The poor disposal is linked to the shutting down of our inside fwd 50 targets!

WCE at Subi is honestly our best chance due to wide open spaces and vs a team that sometimes doesnt overly strategise!

 

[krayfesh]

WCE at Subi is honestly our best chance due to wide open spaces and vs a team that sometimes doesnt overly strategise!

Maybe we sucked because of the smaller Etihad.

It'll be fun to contrast on Monday.

 

[40yearBLUE]

I seriously laughed out loud...a lot . What are you taking late at night to spew forth this type of stuff?

With the other point of our mids losing confidence in our fwd 50 targets ...this represents only half the truth. Everyone keeps banging on about how we were ok earlier in the season but forget that since that time, opposition teams have done their homework and strangled our fwd 50 targets...after doing this..then our players confidence went downhill across the board...not before. The cause itself is not the players confidence...the cause is opposition teams planning versus our side...this beat our fwd 50 targets and then they lost their confidence. People are mixing up cause and effect here.

People also need to remember that both Geelong and Saint Kilda didnt respect us so didnt do any extra planning against us. Once we won that respect the other mid table teams started to respect us and worked on a strategy to counter the 3 amigos and close down Setanta. If we played Saint Kilda and Geelong again..they would def implement a diff strategy (flooding our fwd 50) to beat us right now...Carlton are only dangerous in one modern day game scenario...if you let the game stay open with lots of run and flow...clog up our fwd 50 and the 3 amigos and show a little respect to Hendo/Setanta and we're dead.

Players are trying as hard as they can with maybe a little less hardness than they should be showing. Our opposition's strategy along with our own poor disposal makes us look embarassing at times. The poor disposal is linked to the shutting down of our inside fwd 50 targets!

WCE at Subi is honestly our best chance due to wide open spaces and vs a team that sometimes doesnt overly strategise!

What that meant, seeing as how English seems to be a problem for you, is that only in science can there be absolutes. 1 + 1 = 2 in England, in Spain and here, in winter, in summer, under water or in a plane, yesterday, today and tomorrow. But in footy, what once might have appeared to be true may not always because surprise surprise it aint a science, comprendo amigo? Nah didnt think so.

As to your childish murmurings about other teams "working us out", are you really suggesting the Saints couldnt figure out how we beat Geelong and therefore we were able to beat them but that North and the Bulldogs could work us out? Come on, you are gonna have to do much much better than that, you really dont think through your arguments do you.

I am not even going to bother responding to Geelong or the Saints disrespecting us, especially the Saints who must have been playing on Mars the week we beat Geelong and then miraculously missed the news of our win over them. What a joke of an argument.

 

[40yearBLUE]

I seriously laughed out loud...a lot . What are you taking late at night to spew forth this type of stuff?

With the other point of our mids losing confidence in our fwd 50 targets ...this represents only half the truth. Everyone keeps banging on about how we were ok earlier in the season but forget that since that time, opposition teams have done their homework and strangled our fwd 50 targets...after doing this..then our players confidence went downhill across the board...not before. The cause itself is not the players confidence...the cause is opposition teams planning versus our side...this beat our fwd 50 targets and then they lost their confidence. People are mixing up cause and effect here.

People also need to remember that both Geelong and Saint Kilda didnt respect us so didnt do any extra planning against us. Once we won that respect the other mid table teams started to respect us and worked on a strategy to counter the 3 amigos and close down Setanta. If we played Saint Kilda and Geelong again..they would def implement a diff strategy (flooding our fwd 50) to beat us right now...Carlton are only dangerous in one modern day game scenario...if you let the game stay open with lots of run and flow...clog up our fwd 50 and the 3 amigos and show a little respect to Hendo/Setanta and we're dead.

Players are trying as hard as they can with maybe a little less hardness than they should be showing. Our opposition's strategy along with our own poor disposal makes us look embarassing at times. The poor disposal is linked to the shutting down of our inside fwd 50 targets!

WCE at Subi is honestly our best chance due to wide open spaces and vs a team that sometimes doesnt overly strategise!

Further I suggest you read Bluebears post above. Read it twice to be sure you fully understand it. His post is about spot on. We won games when we worked harder than the other mob. We can differ on why we are not working as hard now but basically that is what wins games of footy, always has, and like in science always will.

 

[mac25]

I seriously laughed out loud...a lot . What are you taking late at night to spew forth this type of stuff?

With the other point of our mids losing confidence in our fwd 50 targets ...this represents only half the truth. Everyone keeps banging on about how we were ok earlier in the season but forget that since that time, opposition teams have done their homework and strangled our fwd 50 targets...after doing this..then our players confidence went downhill across the board...not before. The cause itself is not the players confidence...the cause is opposition teams planning versus our side...this beat our fwd 50 targets and then they lost their confidence. People are mixing up cause and effect here.

People also need to remember that both Geelong and Saint Kilda didnt respect us so didnt do any extra planning against us. Once we won that respect the other mid table teams started to respect us and worked on a strategy to counter the 3 amigos and close down Setanta. If we played Saint Kilda and Geelong again..they would def implement a diff strategy (flooding our fwd 50) to beat us right now...Carlton are only dangerous in one modern day game scenario...if you let the game stay open with lots of run and flow...clog up our fwd 50 and the 3 amigos and show a little respect to Hendo/Setanta and we're dead.

Players are trying as hard as they can with maybe a little less hardness than they should be showing. Our opposition's strategy along with our own poor disposal makes us look embarassing at times. The poor disposal is linked to the shutting down of our inside fwd 50 targets!

WCE at Subi is honestly our best chance due to wide open spaces and vs a team that sometimes doesnt overly strategise!

Agree totally with the above comments, Carlton were able to get under the guard of teams with the small forward set up early in the season, teams have done their homework, as we do not have a Plan B, e.g a good tall forward as the long option capable of taking a contested mark and kicking goals.

30year old Blue can keep rolling out all the statisically data you seriously think this team would beat a switched on Geelong & St Kilda you are kidding yourself, until we get a much more rounded team, more options up forward and a stronger spine this team will struggle to move forward.

 

[Bluebear]

If we played Saint Kilda and Geelong again..they would def implement a diff strategy (flooding our fwd 50) to beat us right now...Carlton are only dangerous in one modern day game scenario...if you let the game stay open with lots of run and flow...clog up our fwd 50 and the 3 amigos and show a little respect to Hendo/Setanta and we're dead.

Well I guess we'll just bump this after round 21 and see won't we.

Geelong......flooding back........I'd like to see that.

The fact is Geelong will back themselves to beat us by taking the game on. If........IF......we work hard to apply pressure to their ball carriers, and push back to get behind the ball, once again we will open up our forward line and have plenty of use for the small forwards to run onto.

If we, as is our current form, chase to defend at half pace, then push forward at 3/4 pace the will open us up like a can of sardines........and toss us away when they have finished picking over our carcass.

As for the Saints. They did set up their press, they did try to get numbers around the footy, but IMO they had an off night and we moved the ball as quickly and with as much skill as Geelong ever have in their last few years. The difference is of course.....that's normal for them......for us it was "one out of the box".......or two as the case may be.

Workrate. That's where the regaining of form and the tilt at our next flag starts and ends.

No point having a guy standing 200cm in the square, who is probably close to the fastest on the ground if he uses neither his height, nor pace to his advantage during a game. It's all good for Yarran to run and chase 50m and nearly tackle a guy......but then to go at 3/4 pace to affect a marking contest on D50 which he could have made easily.........attitude.
Same can be said for Murphy, Judd, Gibbs........pretty much the whole team.

One or two great efforts isn't good enough. The penny will hopefully drop. Just not sure when.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Agree totally with the above comments, Carlton were able to get under the guard of teams with the small forward set up early in the season, teams have done their homework, as we do not have a Plan B, e.g a good tall forward as the long option capable of taking a contested mark and kicking goals.

30year old Blue can keep rolling out all the statisically data you seriously think this team would beat a switched on Geelong & St Kilda you are kidding yourself, until we get a much more rounded team, more options up forward and a stronger spine this team will struggle to move forward.

Again the super intellect of the BF poster shows itself. Just have a think for a moment of what you are suggesting.

You are saying that the top 2 sides from last year, the grand finalists and clearly best teams go into games with a lack of preparation bordering on neglectful because they are playing us? They say to themselves at the pre game planning meetings, "oh we should belt this mob, lets have an early night and go to the pub, no need to plan for this game, we have them covered already"?

Is that it? Is that what you truly think?

Or you are suggesting that these same top 2 sides dont have the same insight or ability to understand the game that North or Bulldogs have or and this is the best one of all, it takes sides 6 or 8 weeks to work out how to beat us.........so therefore the Cats and the Saints had not seen enough of us to work it out?

Really, this is your idea of how footy clubs work and how they spend the millions of dollars sending scouts out to watch other teams play each week around the country.......

please, I am getting really tired of this, please THINK THROUGH YOUR ARGUMENTS BEFORE YOU COMMIT THEM TO THE INTERMANET!!!!

FFS.

Any team, (YES ANY TEAM) can beat any team (YES ANY TEAM) if they are the team working hardest on the day. The reason we won both of those games was because we worked harder ON THE DAY. Not because they didnt plan for us and not because we fooled them with some game plan that other sides have now worked out.

FFS this gets awfully tiresome sometimes.

 

[mac25]

Again the super intellect of the BF poster shows itself. Just have a think for a moment of what you are suggesting.

You are saying that the top 2 sides from last year, the grand finalists and clearly best teams go into games with a lack of preparation bordering on neglectful because they are playing us? They say to themselves at the pre game planning meetings, "oh we should belt this mob, lets have an early night and go to the pub, no need to plan for this game, we have them covered already"?

Is that it? Is that what you truly think?

Or you are suggesting that these same top 2 sides dont have the same insight or ability to understand the game that North or Bulldogs have or and this is the best one of all, it takes sides 6 or 8 weeks to work out how to beat us.........so therefore the Cats and the Saints had not seen enough of us to work it out?

Really, this is your idea of how footy clubs work and how they spend the millions of dollars sending scouts out to watch other teams play each week around the country.......

please, I am getting really tired of this, please THINK THROUGH YOUR ARGUMENTS BEFORE YOU COMMIT THEM TO THE INTERMANET!!!!

FFS.

Any team, (YES ANY TEAM) can beat any team (YES ANY TEAM) if they are the team working hardest on the day. The reason we won both of those games was because we worked harder ON THE DAY. Not because they didnt plan for us and not because we fooled them with some game plan that other sides have now worked out.

FFS this gets awfully tiresome sometimes.

Mate, you seriously need to take a reality check, you make out as if you are the gospel of every footy argument here, most of the comments on here are opinion and each and every person is fully entitled to that, you refuse to take on board other people's views as you are totally of the belief you opinion is correct and everyone else has no idea.

 

[blue healer]

You too Tanks? You let your disappointment and impatience cloud your judgement. I claim they (Hammer and Aussie) are as likely to succeed to make they point they were speculative second or third round picks that may or may not make it, that is the nature of speculation, as is Talia but he was taken with a first round pick and some would have us take that speculation over the now proven Lucas. And that with having Aussie and Hammer on our list as well as Irish (and last year Edwards and Hartlett) we already have our fair share of projects or speculative picks without wasting a first round pick on one thanks. Talia may yet turn out to be a gun KPP, so what, so could a player picked in the rookie draft, my point is you dont waste a first round pick to find out. Ever.

And again you know (or should know but are letting the aforementioned disappointment and impatience fool you) that many many sides have done extremely well without a gun forward, many many gun forwards have done extremely well in crap sides and the side continued to be crap no matter that they had a coleman medalist but most importantly never ever ever in the entire history of the game has a side done well without a gun midfield.

Since 2001 these 2 along with Kruezer, Bower, Kennedy and Hartlett are the only 1st or 2nd round picks we have taken. Kennedy and Hartlett have moved on so we are left with 4 taken at this level and as 2 are ruckmen we therefore have only Bower and Austin left as a KPP's (hope Austin makes it)

We currently have 12 players in the club at 192cms+ and of these 4 are ruckmen.

Of the other 8

1 is F/S

3 are rookie elevations

1 (Hendo) was traded in for another KPP

Which leaves Bower, Austin and Fisher as the only KPP's on our list that were actually drafted since 2001.

We also have only 2 players of this height on our rookie list and they are in their first year.

You can make what you like of this but if gives some credence to the argument that we have not been too good at drafting for balance via the draft itself

 

[40yearBLUE]

Mate, you seriously need to take a reality check, you make out as if you are the gospel of every footy argument here, most of the comments on here are opinion and each and every person is fully entitled to that, you refuse to take on board other people's views as you are totally of the belief you opinion is correct and everyone else has no idea.

What I do mate, is think through what my opinions are and the consequences of them if taken to their logical conclusion, not spout the first stupid thing that pops into my head as seems to be the way most posters here operate.

Take a look at the blue healers post for example, i dont agree with it, but it is a well thought out argument that is going to require me to think about before responding.

Making stupid statements like we got under their guard or they took us easy or they didnt plan for us or other clubs have worked us out is not only lazy, it does not make sence and shows up your lack of understanding of how footy clubs really work. What for example do you think all these blokes in club polo shirts do? Do you have even a minute clue? I suggest you get one before boring us with your mindless drivel, except of course you have a ready audience for that crap here.

 

[blue healer]

What I do mate, is think through what my opinions are and the consequences of them if taken to their logical conclusion, not spout the first stupid thing that pops into my head as seems to be the way most posters here operate.

Take a look at the blue healers post for example, i dont agree with it, but it is a well thought out argument that is going to require me to think about before responding.

Making stupid statements like we got under their guard or they took us easy or they didnt plan for us or other clubs have worked us out is not only lazy, it does not make sence and shows up your lack of understanding of how footy clubs really work. What for example do you think all these blokes in club polo shirts do? Do you have even a minute clue? I suggest you get one before boring us with your mindless drivel, except of course you have a ready audience for that crap here.

Thanks, I look forward to your response whilst I think further

 

[40yearBLUE]

Since 2001 these 2 along with Kruezer, Bower, Kennedy and Hartlett are the only 1st or 2nd round picks we have taken. Kennedy and Hartlett have moved on so we are left with 4 taken at this level and as 2 are ruckmen we therefore have only Bower and Austin left as a KPP's (hope Austin makes it)

We currently have 12 players in the club at 192cms+ and of these 4 are ruckmen.

Of the other 8

1 is F/S

3 are rookie elevations

1 (Hendo) was traded in for another KPP

Which leaves Bower, Austin and Fisher as the only KPP's on our list that were actually drafted since 2001.

We also have only 2 players of this height on our rookie list and they are in their first year.

You can make what you like of this but if gives some credence to the argument that we have not been too good at drafting for balance via the draft itself

You make a good counter argument but earlier in the year I made a post comparing the average height, and number of players over 190cm and we are in the top 3 or 4 from memory. I could try to dig that out if you like. There are only a few sides with more players on their list over 190cm.

I dont accept that we dont have enough tall prospective kpp players, I believe we have enough of them but that the players we do have are not yet at the kind of form we would like, but this is understandable, we all know and accept it takes them longer to reach playing maturity.

The problem we have is not with the players we have but of fans expectations of them and the fans understanding of what our shortcomings really are. It is not in the KPP forward or back that we are being belted. It just isnt and all the arguments and emotive language in the world is not going to change that fact.

Some teams have better developed KPP than we do, such as the Hawks but they were lucky that the tigers were stupid, and we simply did not have the picks to get the ready mades or the "no-brainer" picks for KPP, which brings me to my next point.

And this is the key argument that has gone on here. It is about our taking Lucas over Talia. Talia has about as much chance of making it as the KPP we already have on our list. Another prospect just like Aussie or Hammer. (Hammer is not a ruck btw, he may play ruck at the moment but he will be a KPP and was drafted as one).

It is pretty much accepted wisdom among AFL level recruiters that for first round you always take best available, and that you dont speculate with a first round pick, you either trade it for established kpp (if that is what you need at the time, we needed a solid in and under so we traded 11 for it) or you use it to take best available. If and only if, the accepted consensus is that more than 1 player is presented at your pick with equal wraps and you need a kpp player you could justify taking him but it is still a risk, because of the aforementioned time it takes for them to hit AFL standard and the associated problems that brings with it, including their higher propensity for injury.

I cannot believe there is still any debate that taking Lucas over Talia was not 100% vindicated.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Hey Blue Healer, I have had a quick search for the post where I list what number of players each club has over 190cm. Have not found it yet but did find this, in it there is a list of players that WH has brought to the club over the years, and 1 out of 3 were over 190cm. The league list average is 1 in 4 over 190cm btw. The point being that we have brought in, so we are already ahead of average on that count, but we may not have had the stock of over 190 in the first place and needed to accelerate that to get the right mix (or the ones we had were not up to it, Cloke, Ackland, Deluca, Harts, Edwards, you get the idea), so that put the kaibosch on the argument we are not choosing talls.

I agree we are not speculating with early pics which gives the impression we are not choosing talls but the facts are to the contrary.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16387150&postcount=165

 

[blue healer]

You make a good counter argument but earlier in the year I made a post comparing the average height, and number of players over 190cm and we are in the top 3 or 4 from memory. I could try to dig that out if you like. There are only a few sides with more players on their list over 190cm.

I dont accept that we dont have enough tall prospective kpp players, I believe we have enough of them but that the players we do have are not yet at the kind of form we would like, but this is understandable, we all know and accept it takes them longer to reach playing maturity.

The problem we have is not with the players we have but of fans expectations of them and the fans understanding of what our shortcomings really are. It is not in the KPP forward or back that we are being belted. It just isnt and all the arguments and emotive language in the world is not going to change that fact.

Some teams have better developed KPP than we do, such as the Hawks but they were lucky that the tigers were stupid, and we simply did not have the picks to get the ready mades or the "no-brainer" picks for KPP, which brings me to my next point.

And this is the key argument that has gone on here. It is about our taking Lucas over Talia. Talia has about as much chance of making it as the KPP we already have on our list. Another prospect just like Aussie or Hammer. (Hammer is not a ruck btw, he may play ruck at the moment but he will be a KPP and was drafted as one).

It is pretty much accepted wisdom among AFL level recruiters that for first round you always take best available, and that you dont speculate with a first round pick, you either trade it for established kpp (if that is what you need at the time, we needed a solid in and under so we traded 11 for it) or you use it to take best available. If and only if, the accepted consensus is that more than 1 player is presented at your pick with equal wraps and you need a kpp player you could justify taking him but it is still a risk, because of the aforementioned time it takes for them to hit AFL standard and the associated problems that brings with it, including their higher propensity for injury.

I cannot believe there is still any debate that taking Lucas over Talia was not 100% vindicated.

Firstly I picked 192 cms as the only 3 I could see at a quick glance who were 190 cms were Grigg, Hadley and White and I don't see any of them as a KPP

I also agree with Hammer as a KPP and think he is our most likely FF, would like to see him played there for the rest of the year.

As for the Talia/Lucas argument I had a bit of a non committal dig at this on another thread and am not fussed either way as it is already apparent that Lucas will be a good one and it will be 2-3 years before any real comparison can be made.

I don't share your optimism on our existing KPP's because they include Thornton, Setanta and Fisher who I think have spent too many years being bashed up while we've been down, suspect that they may be just worn down.

As for your point on using the first round pick on the best possible, I totally agree but the thrust of my concerns is that we haven't improved our KPP stocks with subsequent picks.

This year may or may not be an example. I don't know whether there were any talls of note at our second pick and can only assume there weren't as I'd be disappointed to have missed a good one there.

I guess the other point is I think we were dudded in the Fev trade a bit as I would have thought a player like Fev was worth pick 11 and a kid without giving that second pick or at least we could have made it the third. I am also disappointed that we let Brisbane take Macguire with a pick in the 90's

Macguire may not work out but surely to Christ he was worth a late one given his age, particularly considering some want Tarrant.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Oh and in case you are wondering why I have used 190cm:

Jason Dunstall 188cm
Tony Lockett 191cm
Tony Modra 188cm
Fev 191cm
Matt Scarlett 192cm
Matt Lloyd 192cm
Mark Maclure 188cm

Do you need me to go on?

 

[blue healer]

Hey Blue Healer, I have had a quick search for the post where I list what number of players each club has over 190cm. Have not found it yet but did find this, in it there is a list of players that WH has brought to the club over the years, and 1 out of 3 were over 190cm. The league list average is 1 in 4 over 190cm btw. The point being that we have brought in, so we are already ahead of average on that count, but we may not have had the stock of over 190 in the first place and needed to accelerate that to get the right mix (or the ones we had were not up to it, Cloke, Ackland, Deluca, Harts, Edwards, you get the idea), so that put the kaibosch on the argument we are not choosing talls.

I agree we are not speculating with early pics which gives the impression we are not choosing talls but the facts are to the contrary.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16387150&postcount=165

Look I also concede that we were at rock bottom in 03 and were taking anything with a pulse and we were bound to make some monumental blues.

We were rebuilding from the ground up and an overfocus on mid types is explainable in that 3-4 year period. Its the last 3 years that I have concerns about

 

[blue healer]

Oh and in case you are wondering why I have used 190cm:

Jason Dunstall 188cm
Tony Lockett 191cm
Tony Modra 188cm
Fev 191cm
Matt Scarlett 192cm
Matt Lloyd 192cm
Mark Maclure 188cm

Do you need me to go on?

Couple of these guys were freaks you know and not sure whether Maclure would have the speed for the modern game. I think Nicholls was only around 190 but the era was different