Carlton, Essendon, North - the triumvirate of mediocrity

[CharlieMortdecai]

By any objective measure, these are the three worst performed teams of this century (2001-23). So long as that objective measure is Flags > GFs > Prelims, and you exclude Gold Coast, which is fair enough because they have only been around for half the time and in fact it's further damning that GWS has eclipsed them in even less time.

The sum total of their achievements in that period has been 1 GF (Ess, 2001) and 4 prelims (NM 3, Car 1).

Why these three? Two of the big four, but also the Vic club that is as far as you can get from big four? The two obvious things they have in common are:

• Docklands tenants.
• Dominated the fin de siecle (1993-2000 5 flags, 3 GFs, and 7 prelims compared to the above, in a third of the time)

Is that relevant? Saints and Dogs play at Docklands. Adelaide and West Coast went okay in the 90s.

Is it just coincidental that these are the worst run and generally shittiest teams of the last 23 years?

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Somebody feeling a little defensive?

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

Somebody feeling a little defensive?

Not really. I think Carlton finally looking ready to break out of it raises the question. What's changed at the Blues that sees them second favourites for the flag for the first time since 18 September 1999?

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Not really. I think Carlton finally looking ready to break out of it raises the question. What's changed at the Blues that sees them second favourites for the flag for the first time since 18 September 1999?

A million things have changed.

• realisation that equalisation is reality
• New administration led by Brian Cook.
• extracting old firm board members
• brilliant list build - development/trading
• trial & error with coaches
• finally backing our coach in
• world class facilities & fitness team
• club engaging supporters
• club culture initiatives - Carlton Respects
• team started playing well
• supporters loving the ride
• 105k members
• brilliant new training facilities
• inaugural season women’s team.

It shows how much needs to happen just to get here - let alone win the whole thing.

Supporters always look at coaches/players as the reason for success/ lack there of.

Great management & culture building so important! It’s taken us 30 years to work that out.

 

[bungalow_bill]

A million things have changed.

• realisation that equalisation is reality
• New administration led by Brian Cook.
• extracting old firm board members
• brilliant list build - development/trading
• trial & error with coaches
• finally backing our coach in
• world class facilities & fitness team
• club engaging supporters
• club culture initiatives - Carlton Respects
• team started playing well
• supporters loving the ride
• 105k members
• brilliant new training facilities
• inaugural season women’s team.

It shows how much needs to happen just to get here - let alone win the whole thing.

Supporters always look at coaches/players as the reason for success/ lack there of.

Great management & culture building so important! It’s taken us 30 years to work that out.

Yep it takes a lot of work in all areas just to have a shot. Our culture was ordinary until Fagan came in and it made a world of difference.

 

[Juddernaut08]

think blues took a long time to recover from the draft penalties and get our house in order (currently top 4)

think dons took a long time to recover from drug penalties and get their house in order (currently top 4)

kangas is a lack of money. never really got penalised so just kind of an underresourced club getting by on handouts

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Mediocrity? We aren't a chance of those heights for a couple of years yet.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

brilliant list build - development/trading

When do you think this commenced? Who was responsible?

finally backing our coach in

Not sure about this - you gave Mick 52 games, Bolton 77 and Teague 50 games. Voss's nadir was round 13 last year, when you lost to Essendon and were 15th on the ladder. But that was only his 34th game as a coach, surely he was no chance to be sacked mid-season?

• club engaging supporters
• club culture initiatives - Carlton Respects
• team started playing well
• supporters loving the ride
• 105k members
• brilliant new training facilities
• inaugural season women’s team.

Most of these things are a consequence of success not a cause. And those that aren't, do they really contribute to your on-field success? (Apart, from training facilities, but you listed that twice).

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

think blues took a long time to recover from the draft penalties and get our house in order (currently top 4)

think dons took a long time to recover from drug penalties and get their house in order (currently top 4)

kangas is a lack of money. never really got penalised so just kind of an underresourced club getting by on handouts

Yeah but nobody really believes Bombres are a genuine top 4 team. Not even their supporters, who appear permanently scarred. (All my Don work colleagues tell me every game is a danger game, even North and WC).

I suspect the "house in order" is far more important than drug/draft penalties. As in, I think the penalties arose because houses were not in order and shortcuts were sought. The penalties ultimately weren't determinative of a lack of success.

 

[WilloTree]

I'm just here because I love the word 'triumvirate'.

 

[NetworkNerd]

I'm just here because I love the word 'triumvirate'.

All I think of when I hear triumvirate

 

[CCurnow3votes]

When do you think this commenced? Who was responsible?

Not sure about this - you gave Mick 52 games, Bolton 77 and Teague 50 games. Voss's nadir was round 13 last year, when you lost to Essendon and were 15th on the ladder. But that was only his 34th game as a coach, surely he was no chance to be sacked mid-season?

Most of these things are a consequence of success not a cause. And those that aren't, do they really contribute to your on-field success? (Apart, from training facilities, but you listed that twice).

Like any brand/business insofar as the brand is well developed, the outcomes will follow with clear strategy & execution.

The work Carton has done on solidifying our brand is the strategic golden-thread that leads to all silos of the organisation.

Bringing Brian Cook in is key to that. Agree on a goal (become a premiership team over X time), back the coach, trade & draft, provide resources etc etc engage supporter base - clear KPI’s.

Carlton’s execution is the best aligned it’s been with its’ goals for 30 years & it manifests across all aspects of the club, ultimately bringing a big culture shift & success on & off the field.

 

[PerthBoy86]

I just realised teams that are either birds (and I'll include the Bombers as 'honourary' birds) or felines (Cats, Lions, Tigers) have won 28 out of 33 grand finals. That's impressive.

 

[DamoESP]

All I think of when I hear triumvirate

View attachment 2039006

This is all I think of when I hear it, IYKYK

 

[WilloTree]

All I think of when I hear triumvirate

View attachment 2039006

 

[CCurnow3votes]

I just realised teams that are either birds (and I'll include the Bombers as 'honourary' birds) or felines (Cats, Lions, Tigers) have won 28 out of 33 grand finals. That's impressive.

You can add The Dirty Birds to that after last year

 

[Rod Stroker]

think blues took a long time to recover from the draft penalties and get our house in order (currently top 4)

think dons took a long time to recover from drug penalties and get their house in order (currently top 4)

kangas is a lack of money. never really got penalised so just kind of an underresourced club getting by on handouts

what hurt us for several years, was we were only allowed to pay 92.5% of the cap. Meanwhile Sydney and Brisbane with COLA were paying the equivalent of 110-120% of the cap. That means they could have 5-10 better players on their list. Not 5-10 extra players, but 5-10 better players because they had the money to pay for it.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

on what planet is North mediocre?

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

on what planet is North mediocre?

25 year timeframe, these three teams are the epitome of mediocre: "of moderate or low quality". Okay, maybe Carlton veer into "shit", but I think we can parse that as mediocre.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Like any brand/business insofar as the brand is well developed, the outcomes will follow with clear strategy & execution.

The work Carton has done on solidifying our brand is the strategic golden-thread that leads to all silos of the organisation.

Bringing Brian Cook in is key to that. Agree on a goal (become a premiership team over X time), back the coach, trade & draft, provide resources etc etc engage supporter base - clear KPI’s.

Carlton’s execution is the best aligned it’s been with its’ goals for 30 years & it manifests across all aspects of the club, ultimately bringing a big culture shift & success on & off the field.

Getting rid of Silvagni was a positive

 

[Gavin Excell]

View attachment 2039103

Correct
The only real Triumvirate

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Getting rid of Silvagni was a positive

He drafted Weitering, Curnow & McKay in one draft. Respect

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

Correct
The only real Triumvirate

Actually incorrect, the "second" triumvirate was a genuine triumvirate, but applying the term to the "first" triumvirate is an anachronism created by 17th century historians.

triumviri (or tresviri)​

were a board of three in Roman public life, of many different kinds, usually elected by the people ... The most famous triumvirate was that consisting of Mark Antony (M. Antonius (2)), M. Aemilius Lepidus (3), and Octavian (see augustus), created in 43 bc by the lex Titia. This was originally to last until 1 January 37 bc, but the triumvirs did not resign then and it was renewed the following summer for another five years, probably until 1 January 32. ...
The coalition formed between Caesar, Pompey, and Crassus in 60 bc was wholly unofficial and never described at the time as a triumvirate, although other, insulting, names were found. ‘First’ and ‘Second Triumvirate’ are modern and misleading terms.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Actually incorrect, the "second" triumvirate was a genuine triumvirate, but applying the term to the "first" triumvirate is an anachronism created by 17th century historians.

Nooooo

 

[Woolly Mammoth]

think blues took a long time to recover from the draft penalties and get our house in order (currently top 4)

think dons took a long time to recover from drug penalties and get their house in order (currently top 4)

kangas is a lack of money. never really got penalised so just kind of an underresourced club getting by on handouts

Doesn't quite work because the Saints and the Bulldogs (more handout happy) and the Dees (only slightly less handout happy) have 2 flags and 5 grand finals between them.

Doesn't quite explain this mysterious triumvirate.