Carlton wants $10m from AFL

[Exe Gesis]

Then this new "Carlton" would consistently win the comp, get the most prime tv coverage, never suffer in father-son picks, seemingly gets its way with every draft, would play more games at the MCG, etc.

Along your train of thought, if it did buy it outright, it would only be to immediately sell off the license to any aspiring teams seeking an AFL license, for a very big price too.

 

[Jarka]

Interesting question.....

In the last couple of years the current Melbourne board have been looking for a base/home. Princess Park was explored and Carlton was approached over the possible deal, to cut a long story short the offer from them was ludicrous, I think the phrase 'highway robbery' was used.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[Jarka]

Please shut up, and do read this.

Over the last couple of years I've witnessed my club almost self destruct through salary cap cheating and incompetent financial management. Here on bigfooty the Carlton supporters (along with the pies) were always on the front foot giving it to us about being cheats and how we should just die off as a club.
Now I see Carlton fans respond like you have just done when it's your turn to go through the tough times, how are we (demon, bulldog and roo fans) meant to feel considering everything's that happend? I personally feel for you because I know what it's like, but I completely understand those that take a much harsher view.

 

[JeffDunne]

I think you are missing the point Porthos.

The AFL has already guaranteed Carlton's debt. If the AFL don't give them a capital injection now, and they are forced to fold, it would cost the AFL far more than the figures we are now talking. And if the AFL were to let a team fold, they'd still need to fund a startup (whether that be a new Carlton or another) and that would cost far more also than the proposed bailout.

 

[The Magenius]

“tell ‘em they’re dreamin’”

 

[Hawkk]

In the last couple of years the current Melbourne board have been looking for a base/home. Princess Park was explored and Carlton was approached over the possible deal, to cut a long story short the offer from them was ludicrous, I think the phrase 'highway robbery' was used.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Here Here.

Seems Carlton haven't lost that arrogance they are famous for

They are in denial, they deserve everything they get.

 

[Captain Sensible]

I think you are missing the point Porthos.

The AFL has already guaranteed Carlton's debt. If the AFL don't give them a capital injection now, and they are forced to fold, it would cost the AFL far more than the figures we are now talking. And if the AFL were to let a team fold, they'd still need to fund a startup (whether that be a new Carlton or another) and that would cost far more also than the proposed bailout.

So the directors would get away scot free because the AFL guaranteed Carlton's debt?

 

[hotpie]

Thinking more about this.

The AFL should only bail Carlton out if they are buying out the membership. As in, Carlton becomes an entirely AFL administrated and owned property, including their AFL license.

Wasnt that the Sydney Swans model - VFL/AFL owned them during their basket case years?

 

[MarkT]

I think you are missing the point Porthos.

The AFL has already guaranteed Carlton's debt. If the AFL don't give them a capital injection now, and they are forced to fold, it would cost the AFL far more than the figures we are now talking. And if the AFL were to let a team fold, they'd still need to fund a startup (whether that be a new Carlton or another) and that would cost far more also than the proposed bailout.

I am not so sure. I thought Carlton asked for a redirection order in respect of money that would be subsequently paid to them anyway. That was provided and that gave the bankers some confidence but I don’t know of any actual guarantee that was provided. I may be wrong of course.

 

[MarkT]

Thinking more about this.

The AFL should only bail Carlton out if they are buying out the membership. As in, Carlton becomes an entirely AFL administrated and owned property, including their AFL license.

I think the COI debates have run short of steam too.

In all seriousness the AFL cannot run a club. They should not but in truth they can not. They do not have the right mindset or the right skills and the board would not have the right motivation or accountability. This was shown with Sydney but in a broader context it is shown time and again in the business world. The auto industry in particular when car manufacturers try and become car retailers. It is a disaster that I have experienced first hand. Serving two masters and more particularly focussing on the wrong or even just split agendas. In the auto industry it is moving volume v making profit. In footy it is making a profit v winning games and additionally in this case competing hard against the other clubs let alone the AFL.

It’s bad enough that the AFL already has a few clubs by the knackers due to their financial arrangements.

 

[scooter600x]

I think the COI debates have run short of steam too.

In all seriousness the AFL cannot run a club. They should not but in truth they can not.

Could you imagine the conspiracy outcries every time one of their players wasn't cited or got off on appeal?

Imagine if they were a point in front when the siren went but the umpires didn't hear it ...

 

[Vandenbergfan]

The audacity of this move is breath-taking. Without any move to mobilise their own supporters to raise funds to pay off a debt, which to a large extent has been accumulated via non- football activities they run cap in hand to the AFL to settle their outstanding accounts.

This is the same club, which when Hawthorn was a co-tenant at Princess Park, refused to permit entry to the stands at the ground unless a separate payment was paid to Carlton even though they won't even playing in the game. In the end Hawthorn built there own stand at Princess Park and this was the reason for a $700,000 debt, which the AFL attempted to use as leverage to force a merger on us with Melbourne. This debt was met and paid off by the members and supporters of Hawthorn in Operation Payback, which if it hadn't raised to the full amount then the AFL were still prepared to wipe Hawthorn out of existence. The whole time Hawthorn was a co-tenant at Princess Park Carlton attempted to financially rip us off, which got even worse when the club signalled that it was leaving for Waverley.

So if Carlton posters come onto this site saying that there club has some pre-ordained right to AFL finances then as far as I'm concerned they can get stuffed. If you want CBF assistance, then fair enough, but you will need to go through the same process as that required of the Kangaroos, Melbourne and Bulldogs - and only get assistance of a similar level. In addition, to which as assistance will tend to undermine the penalties for salary cap cheating that enabled you to pay for the 1995 premiership, that cup should be surrendered and the premiership awarded to Geelong, with all records amended accordingly.

 

[Punt_Road_Roar]

The audacity of this move is breath-taking. Without any move to mobilise their own supporters to raise funds to pay off a debt, which to a large extent has been accumulated via non- football activities they run cap in hand to the AFL to settle their outstanding accounts.

This is the same club, which when Hawthorn was a co-tenant at Princess Park, refused to permit entry to the stands at the ground unless a separate payment was paid to Carlton even though they won't even playing in the game. In the end Hawthorn built there own stand at Princess Park and this was the reason for a $700,000 debt, which the AFL attempted to use as leverage to force a merger on us with Melbourne. This debt was met and paid off by the members and supporters of Hawthorn in Operation Payback, which if it hadn't raised to the full amount then the AFL were still prepared to wipe Hawthorn out of existence. The whole time Hawthorn was a co-tenant at Princess Park Carlton attempted to financially rip us off, which got even worse when the club signalled that it was leaving for Waverley.

So if Carlton posters come onto this site saying that there club has some pre-ordained right to AFL finances then as far as I'm concerned they can get stuffed. If you want CBF assistance, then fair enough, but you will need to go through the same process as that required of the Kangaroos, Melbourne and Bulldogs - and only get assistance of a similar level. In addition, to which as assistance will tend to undermine the penalties for salary cap cheating that enabled you to pay for the 1995 premiership, that cup should be surrendered and the premiership awarded to Geelong, with all records amended accordingly.

Here Here regarding this point, every other club has to do it tough, so should the blues, if they cant then thats bad luck.

Richmond and the Doggies had to rattle tins back in the late 80's, Fitzroy hardly had the debt the blues have today and they were forced north, Hawks, Melb were close to merging, Kangaroos, Bulldogs and Demons currently have to play by the books.

I dont see Carlton even attempting to get additional funding from their supporters nor cutting costs within the club.

Carlton your mentality stinks !!!

 

[hotpie]

In all seriousness the AFL cannot run a club.

All hypothetical of course but.......

Its not a long term solution, but if it theoretically came down to a choice between an AFL managed club for 5-10 years and extinction of one of the AFL's most famous and successful clubs, I'm sure the former would be the preferred choice. As awkward and difficult as the AFL managed Sydney Swans was, it was the only choice they had to save AFL football in NSW. And with hindsight the effort was worth it.

 

[Andyt30]

wait til fremantle wants money by then aFL won;t have any for you

 

[Eagle87]

All hypothetical of course but.......

Its not a long term solution, but if it theoretically came down to a choice between an AFL managed club for 5-10 years and extinction of one of the AFL's most famous and successful clubs, I'm sure the former would be the preferred choice. As awkward and difficult as the AFL managed Sydney Swans was, it was the only choice they had to save AFL football in NSW. And with hindsight the effort was worth it.

While I understand your point hotpie, they were successful in the VFL and have been somewhat less so in the AFL. In addition, on the basis of the penalties imposed they were the biggest cheats of one of the AFL foundation stones - the salary cap and they have had a general demeanour which has screamed "we are above the rules".

I have mixed emotions in this matter. The Blues have been historically a great club but they have been one of the worst at adopting the national concept, the worst at dealing with (and accepting) the draft and salary cap and they have been the hardest in dealing with other struggling clubs. Having said that, I would imagine their medium-long term business survival chances far exceed those of several other Melbourne clubs.

I am conflicted .... perhaps if they hadnt been such complete ers in the past ....

What I would say is the proposal put forward appears to have limited merit as i seems entirely based on the Blues changing nothing structurely and getting bailed our for disposing of a dubious "asset". As posted earlier on, a harder edged approach would guarantee that the lease on Princes Park, if required at all, would be availbel far cheaper once an administrator or liquidator was appointed.

 

[Portia]

I think you are missing the point Porthos.

Yeah, I'm not.

The AFL has already guaranteed Carlton's debt. If the AFL don't give them a capital injection now, and they are forced to fold, it would cost the AFL far more than the figures we are now talking.

And it would cost Carlton fans and their board a club. Any board that decided to fold instead of hand over administration to professionals is grossly mismanaged anyway, and truly beyond redemption no matter how much money is thrown at them.

I think its an entirely reasonable demand for this sort of financial aid. Either sign over administration and license in return for debt absolution, or continue to go it alone. Its very clear that Carlton being member run is not a satisfactory arrangement. Any extraordinary funding should not be given until this major cause of the current situation is rectified.

Heck, they could even negotiate to turn the Blues into a Power-esque club....give administration half to the VFL and half to Carlton membership. That'd be a good one.

 

[MeeSo]

The AFL's first priority is a successful comp. Fairness is irrelevant. A successful Carlton is capable of generating more money than a successful North or Bulldogs so they are treated differently. It may no be fair but it's the way it is.

 

[RoK]

Optus Oval is a white elephant. And its Carlton's white elephant. They have to foot the bill.

If they dont want to pay for the upkeep, then they should vacate the premises and train at a public park. Its not the AFL's problem - they were adamant all along that the ground rationalisation programme did not include Optus Oval - they never approved the Legends Stand.

Carlton should not recieve a dollar of assistance until they have proven to the AFL that they are prepared to make financial sacrifices, like replacing the coach with somebody who will work for 500k per annum less. Then and only then should some kind of assistance package be negotiated. But not anywhere near 10 mil.

i think someone forget what Carlton did for the Pies in the 80's.Talk about broke you guys were gone.

frigen goose

 

[hotpie]

While I understand your point hotpie, they were successful in the VFL and have been somewhat less so in the AFL..

I think they deserve to be saved. Undeniably. They have sinned just the once - and admittedly its a clanger - and that sin is John Elliott. Other clubs like Footscray have been resuscitated many many times before. Sydney was on life support for 25 years.

But they cannot and should not be saved "at any price". The AFL must extract their pound of flesh and Carlton must start behaving like they want to be saved and woudl do anything to be saved. As yet we've seen little evidence of willingness to do things any differently to what they've done in the past.

 

[RoK]

I think they deserve to be saved. Undeniably. They have sinned just the once - and admittedly its a clanger - and that sin is John Elliott. Other clubs like Footscray have been resuscitated many many times before. Sydney was on life support for 25 years.

But they cannot and should not be saved "at any price". The AFL must extract their pound of flesh and Carlton must start behaving like they want to be saved and woudl do anything to be saved. As yet we've seen little evidence of willingness to do things any differently to what they've done in the past.

Mate i don't think you know haw bad things were down at your club,you can rise as fast as you can fall.

 

[medusala]

I think they deserve to be saved. Undeniably. They have sinned just the once -

Once? Are you kidding? Carlton has tried (and often succeeded) in shafting a no of clubs.

 

[Thrawn]

If find it incredibly ironic after all the crap we've copped from Princes Park that all of a sudden you are taking the moral high ground.

If somebody is going to laugh at the potential situation where he club can fold, I will defend my club and tell you to off. You would do the same thing. Any other supporter would too.

There is no irony, I am just defending my club from idiots like you. You see, I don't go around and openly bag St. Kilda, never did. If you want to accuse someone of irony, go direct it at the Carlton supporters who actually rubbed it in on you. Please realise that all Carlton supporters are not one and the same, it is unfair to tar us all with the same brush.

Tell me Thrawn, have you ever financially supported another club? Have you ever brought a membership of a club in trouble?

No. How is this relevant to what I said on this thread?

Did you write letters to your club when they were trying to shutdown others

Yes, once. I have a few friends who are Swans supporters and I was strongly against the club's stance on the issue.

Sorry if you feel taking aim at the incompetent, self-interested buffoons that have run your club for the past decade is spitting on your survival, but it just indicates to me how far your head is up your arse and how little you actually know about your football club and the AFL in general.

I've got nothing against you taking pot shots at these buffoons ... that is not the point. And don't f'ing tell me what I know and don't know about footy and my club on the basis that I think you're a total smartarse. That's just rubbish on your part.

You joked upon and spat on our survival, and just because some of our supporters have done it in the past doesn't make it right either. I'm not talking about the times where you bagged our current and previous administration or our supporters or even our team, this is the part where you seem to be confused. It shows a lack of class from you, and drops you to the level of these so called Carlton buffoons who did indeed supported clubs to fold.

So you can kiss my arse. Like I said, I don't give a crap about the pot-shots you give our club, only except when it involves our actual survival. You as a St. Kilda supporter, out all of the other supporters, should know better.

Don't take this the wrong way Dunne. I am allowed to defend my club. Just because some Carlton supporters and previous board members thrashed your club doesn't make it any less legit. Don't you dare talk to me about irony, when you have nothing to accuse me of regarding your club, and other clubs. I am simply responding to the crap that was on that TFS thread.

 

[Thrawn]

Carlton supporters . . . I await your apology.

Including from me? I never really disagreed with you on the matter of off-field issues, but from time to time I responded to your ribbing regarding the penalties and our team.

Thing is Jeff, you seem to lump all BF Carlton people together. Yeah, we're all bad, we're all hypocrites just because we defend our team because some other people did the wrong thing, we regard your club with very little credibility, etc. I think it is funny how you potray us in such a negative light when the reality is most of us here are a decent bunch.

And how you question our knowledge of football and even our very own knowledge regarding our club just because we disagree with some of your points, or defend our club.

 

[mediumsizered]

Here Here regarding this point, every other club has to do it tough, so should the blues, if they cant then thats bad luck.

Richmond and the Doggies had to rattle tins back in the late 80's, Fitzroy hardly had the debt the blues have today and they were forced north, Hawks, Melb were close to merging, Kangaroos, Bulldogs and Demons currently have to play by the books.

I dont see Carlton even attempting to get additional funding from their supporters nor cutting costs within the club.
Carlton your mentality stinks !!!

This is so wide of the mark. A rally was held at Optus Oval and cash was literally being collected in buckets at the ground. A short time after this a gathering of wealthy Carlton supporters was held at the home of Richard Pratt at which a number of large donations were made to the club by those present. Then the Carlton heroes program in which supporters were asked to donate a minimum $1000 in return for being honoured with their name on a heroes board and a group photo taken on the ground at Optus Oval to be proudly displayed at the club.

The clubs supporters have been called to arms financially and have stood up to be counted, but $12 million was a lot to try to wipe off. The fact that $5 million of that has been paid off is a fantastic effort, but unfortunately the interest payments on the balance of the debt and the payments on Optus Oval are accounting for too much of the club's cash flow.