Strategy Changes & Pre-match Discussion - Round 21 vs. Hawthorn, MCG, Sat 05/08, 4:35pm

[3rdMan]

For mine it’s not so much about replacing Howe, it’s about freeing-up Moore to roam around and be really damaging. To do that, we need another key defender - Frampton. To get Frampton in, someone has to go out. Howe has looked the most surplus to needs since returning from injury.

It might seem harsh but freeing up Moore is hugely important for our Premiership chances.

There’s no room for sentimentality in pursuit of a Premiership. Just like 2010, when Lockyer, Medhurst and O’Bree we’re all squeezed out. It’s a ruthless business.


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I can understand this logic and I thought we would go with this as well, though to me it was always Frampton for Murphy, otherwise too tall and slow. But we're clearly not going in that direction, it would have happened already.

The Way we play this does make sense. Frampton better suits a man on man defence. A high switching, more zone type defence prioritises mobility over height and Frampton doesn't quite fit. It's not about sentiment, it's about who works best for our game plan.

 

[sr36]

I can understand this logic and I thought we would go with this as well, though to me it was always Frampton for Murphy, otherwise too tall and slow. But we're clearly not going in that direction, it would have happened already.

The Way we play this does make sense. Frampton better suits a man on man defence. A high switching, more zone type defence prioritises mobility over height and Frampton doesn't quite fit. It's not about sentiment, it's about who works best for our game plan.

I suspect the whole club thought it would be Frampton for Murphy, and I think it probably would be if we had 2022 Murphy, but Murphy has taken his game to another level.

 

[LuckyLee]

Agreed. Blues took 10 marks inside 50, nothing to suggest we needed more talls in defence. We're not going to make changes there.

But Moore was killed one-on-one against Curnow. And that happens too regularly to Moore when forced to go head-to-head on a power forward. He had five goals kicked directly on him by Curnow (one against Cox from ruck infringement). We need to free him up.

Look at what Brisbane has done with Harris Andrews and the Dees most recently with May. They’re being freed-up, playing higher up the ground and having massive impact intercepting and launching counter-attacks.


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[No SPIN]

You forgot the number of goals he had kicked on him.

How many was it?

 

[No SPIN]

I think you’re right about Howe being retained this week but do think he’s a good chance to be replaced by Frampton by the time we get to Finals.


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You don’t drop great on field leaders especially approaching finals, unless they are desperately out of form - which is not the case with Howe.

 

[sr36]

But Moore was killed one-on-one against Curnow. And that happens too regularly to Moore when forced to go head-to-head on a power forward. He had five goals kicked directly on him by Curnow (one against Cox from ruck infringement). We need to free him up.

Look at what Brisbane has done with Harris Andrews and the Dees most recently with May. They’re being freed-up, playing higher up the ground and having massive impact intercepting and launching counter-attacks.


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Using Moore to peel off his opponent may be an argument to bring in Frampton, but Frampton being a better match up on Curnow just isn't an argument.

 

[whiskeytown]

After Fly’s comments today I’m thinking only 1-2 changes

Hill in… and maybe one of Frampton or Johnson if they look to change ruck or defensive structure

Can’t see any others feasibly getting a look in including Ginnivan

Don’t know who makes way. Hopefully WHE after his ghost like cameo last week

Get the sense Fly will back the senior players in to lift

And generally a small injury list () and a settled line up is conducive to any successful flag tilt

 

[legendstatus]

I feel better knowing Hill, AJ and Frampton are in the 23

- My bigger concern is our one paced midfield ( Pendles, Mitchell, Lipinski, Sidebottom & Adams) if Naicos & JDG are off

- Our kick ins from points

- Standing off the mark

- Overuse of handballs

 

[LuckyLee]

I can understand this logic and I thought we would go with this as well, though to me it was always Frampton for Murphy, otherwise too tall and slow. But we're clearly not going in that direction, it would have happened already.

The Way we play this does make sense. Frampton better suits a man on man defence. A high switching, more zone type defence prioritises mobility over height and Frampton doesn't quite fit. It's not about sentiment, it's about who works best for our game plan.

None of which solves the problem of Moore being isolated 1v1 on the opposition’s biggest forward, which often sees him concede goals and also robs us of his intercepting and rebounding.


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[LuckyLee]

You don’t drop great on field leaders especially approaching finals, unless they are desperately out of form - which is not the case with Howe.

Tarkyn Lockyer, 2010. Harsh at the time but justified by the result.


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[Frankie23]

I feel better knowing Hill, AJ and Frampton are in the 23

- My bigger concern is our one paced midfield ( Pendles, Mitchell, Lipinski, Sidebottom & Adams) if Naicos & JDG are off

- Our kick ins from points

- Standing off the mark

- Overuse of handballs

Two interesting/good points here.

Our kick ins are absolutely no where at the minute. Moore isn’t the answer. A benefit of sending Daicos back to defence is the fact he can take the kick ins - provides creativity and the run we are lacking.

With the standing on the mark, we need to tighten up on this in our fwd 50. It’s obviously a direction to not do it, but teams are cruising from kick outs way and gaining 60-70m way too quickly. Part of the reason we are losing territory battle.

 

[LuckyLee]

I got the opposite impression.
Think he’ll get a go in the VFL to find form.

Yep, that’s what I got from it too.

And it can’t just be Hill in for Cox. That wouldn’t leave enough ruck support.

So Hill and AJ/Frampton for Cox and…..???


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[Kirby]

But Moore was killed one-on-one against Curnow. And that happens too regularly to Moore when forced to go head-to-head on a power forward. He had five goals kicked directly on him by Curnow (one against Cox from ruck infringement). We need to free him up.

Look at what Brisbane has done with Harris Andrews and the Dees most recently with May. They’re being freed-up, playing higher up the ground and having massive impact intercepting and launching counter-attacks.


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I can’t recall Curnow beating Moore in a single one on one contest that wasn’t a free kick.

The snap wasn’t one on one. The mark goal Curnow did kick was against Maynard.

Then there’s the Cox free.

That leaves 3 free kicks, the first 2 which were soft frees due to Curnow feigning and collapsing that no other player in the league would get.

Only the last free was there.

Moore otherwise beat Curnow pointlessly in the air.

 

[JoinDate]

Tarkyn Lockyer, 2010. Harsh at the time but justified by the result.


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Same thing with Shane Obree that year too.

 

[Anzacday]

I remember he needed 4 goals in the final round to get his 100, and he kicked 2 goals 8 behinds! He had a 3 posters.

I was there, it was hysterical.

 

[No SPIN]

Tarkyn Lockyer, 2010. Harsh at the time but justified by the result.


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No comparison in terms of form, he was in and out of the side for most 2010.

 

[LuckyLee]

I can’t recall Curnow beating Moore in a single one on one contest that wasn’t a free kick.

The snap wasn’t one on one. The mark goal Curnow did kick was against Maynard.

Then there’s the Cox free.

That leaves 3 free kicks, the first 2 which were soft frees due to Curnow feigning and collapsing that no other player in the league would get.

Only the last free was there.

Moore otherwise beat Curnow pointlessly in the air.

The frees were all there, even if a bit soft. And I don’t think Maynard was ever “on” Curnow - I think he was closest after Curnow gave Moore the slip - so that’s on Moore too. Bottom line - Curnow kicked six goals as his direct opponent. It’s ludicrous to suggest that Moore had anything other than a terrible game.

Regardless, Moore has a history of being exposed one-on-one against power forwards and in that role we also lose his intercepting and rebound. Why on Earth would you want that? We need to free him up. Frampton in for Howe would achieve that.


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[windchimes]

The frees were all there, even if a bit soft. And I don’t think Maynard was ever “on” Curnow - I think he was closest after Curnow gave Moore the slip - so that’s on Moore too. And your “beat him pointlessly in the air” comment is ridiculous - Curnow kicked six goals as his direct opponent. It’s ludicrous to suggest that Moore had anything other than a terrible game.

Regardless, Moore has a history of being exposed one-on-one against power forwards and in that role we also lose his intercepting and rebound. Why on Earth would you want that? We need to free him up. Frampton in for Howe would achieve that.


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This whole 'free up Moore' schtick is a myth.

We don't really play a rigid man to man defence, especially not this year. Sure, our defenders do have forwards they generally try to remain accountable for, but we set up zonally to take intercept marks and take off on the rebound from that. Playing Frampton in defence is fine, but we keep hearing about how he's going to lock up the opposition full forward and that'll somehow mean Darcy will be able to do whatever he wants as a loose man, but this isn't how it actually goes in reality, and we saw this in earlier rounds this year when Frampton was in defence.

Teams plan for it and set up their primary targets inside 50 to lead to areas away from Darcy Moore - taking him out of the contest and thus weakening our overall defence massively (they also were setting up decoy targets to remain away from the contest, limiting Moore's ability to get to the actual contests). In principal I'm all for Frampton coming in and playing in defence, but it'd only be to play in Howe or Murphy's role because they feel he can do it better, which is a big if. It just likely wouldn't impact Moore's role or matchups too much, as we now set up to make sure Moore is in prime position to be wherever the ball is most likely to go, and that generally involves him sticking close to your Curnow's, Naughton's etc.

It says a lot about the quality of our marvellous skipper, mind.

 

[LuckyLee]

This whole 'free up Moore' schtick is a myth.

We don't really play a rigid man to man defence, especially not this year. Sure, our defenders do have forwards they generally try to remain accountable for, but we set up zonally to take intercept marks and take off on the rebound from that. Playing Frampton in defence is fine, but we keep hearing about how he's going to lock up the opposition full forward and that'll somehow mean Darcy will be able to do whatever he wants as a loose man, but this isn't how it actually goes in reality, and we saw this in earlier rounds this year when Frampton was in defence.

Teams plan for it and set up their primary targets inside 50 to lead to areas away from Darcy Moore - taking him out of the contest and thus weakening our overall defence massively (they also were setting up decoy targets to remain away from the contest, limiting Moore's ability to get to the actual contests). In principal I'm all for Frampton coming in and playing in defence, but it'd only be to play in Howe or Murphy's role because they feel he can do it better, which is a big if. It just likely wouldn't impact Moore's role or matchups too much, as we now set up to make sure Moore is in prime position to be wherever the ball is most likely to go, and that generally involves him sticking close to your Curnow's, Naughton's etc.

It says a lot about the quality of our marvellous skipper, mind.

To be clear, I love Darcy Moore - especially for his incredible intercepting and ability to turn defence into attack. I’m in favour of whatever set-up allows us to maximise that.

The Brisbane example with Harris Andrews is a clear template. He used to always take the No1 forward but rarely does now. And over the past few weeks the Dees have been putting a lesser defender on the opposition key forward for periods so that May can roam around more freely, to great effect. So it’s definitely do-able but probably requires us to bring in Frampton.

Our defensive set-up against Brisbane in a few weeks will likely reveal our intentions for Finals structure.


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[windchimes]

To be clear, I love Darcy Moore - especially for his incredible intercepting and ability to turn defence into attack. I’m in favour of whatever set-up allows us to maximise that.

The Brisbane example with Harris Andrews is a clear template. He used to always take the No1 forward but rarely does now. And over the past few weeks the Dees have been putting a lesser defender on the opposition key forward for periods so that May can roam around more freely, to great effect. So it’s definitely do-able but probably requires us to bring in Frampton.

Our defensive set-up against Brisbane in a few weeks will likely reveal our intentions for Finals structure.


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But Brisbane's defence got annihilated on the weekend - GC figured this one out, hence King and Casboult's days out. I've missed the Dee's last couple games but, taking your word for it, I'd guess give it another two weeks and it'll be the same story.

I do wish there was a way we could cut it so that teams would let Darcy Moore roam around and do whatever he wants. He'd be unstoppable, and we'd be unbeatable.

 

[jmac70]

But Brisbane's defence got annihilated on the weekend - GC figured this one out, hence King and Casboult's days out. I've missed the Dee's last couple games but, taking your word for it, I'd guess give it another two weeks and it'll be the same story.

I do wish there was a way we could cut it so that teams would let Darcy Moore roam around and do whatever he wants. He'd be unstoppable, and we'd be unbeatable.

Play Moore as a ruck/rover.

 

[sr36]

The Brisbane example with Harris Andrews is a clear template. He used to always take the No1 forward but rarely does now. And over the past few weeks the Dees have been putting a lesser defender on the opposition key forward for periods so that May can roam around more freely, to great effect. So it’s definitely do-able but probably requires us to bring in Frampton.



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This isn't a new thing. Essendon and Geelong used to do it with Fletcher and Scarlett. It's just something we choose not to do.

Darcy and the rest of our defence has been magnificent this year, with Darcy playing deep and central on the central forward. It certainly hasn't taken away his intercepting game like you're suggesting. He was playing on Curnow when he took the record number of intercept marks. I can't see why we'd change what has been working magnificently.

 

[MagpieJoel]

How many was it?

20

 

[Scodog10]

I suspect the whole club thought it would be Frampton for Murphy, and I think it probably would be if we had 2022 Murphy, but Murphy has taken his game to another level.

I also think Frampton’s fallen off a small cliff. His VFL form is nothing short of mediocre by comparison to his SANFL form in 2022.

Your points from yesterday on our clearance game and the forward groups that have gotten us was scary for me as someone that’s been a staunch “follow the plan” poster. Whilst clearance isn’t our game we were at our best with Frampton or Cox in there because it was more predictable than Cameron. A predictable win with Cox or predictable loss with Frampton is always easier to rove to than the unknown of Cameron. If we’re to win it from here we don’t need to become a dominant stoppage team, but we need to improve, IMO. I’m struggling to see where that improvement comes from with the current structure. The second point was that smaller forward lines will trouble us which set off serious alarm bells because in the case of Brisbane their talls and smalls are dangerous and Melbourne has a good mosquito fleet. Both teams are stoppage based so if we’re losing the territory game against those teams and their smalls get on top what then?

I’m loathe to be a doomsayer, but the doubts are creeping in primarily because clubs are starting to get good at taking the corridor from us and we’ve only got one more opportunity to silence those doubts pre finals. That’s completely ignoring the anxiety that’s going to build when we drop at least one of the other 3. All we’ll have left is an “eyes on the finals” mentality because the current trend is making it hard to imagine we’ll be running on all cylinders by Rd 24 even with a full list to choose from… Anyway with a bit more clarity since the weekend:

In: Frampton and Hill
Out: Cox and Mitchell

Frampton to 1st ruck and Cameron into the fwd ruck role he cut his teeth on. I think that provides the best opportunity to improve our stoppage work, but it also adds flex within the 23 to throw the magnets around with Howe, Frampton and Cameron. Hill for Mitchell is based purely on my perception of who is most vulnerable and not me having the slows on Mitchell.

The actual change will be Hill for WHE, IMO.

 

[MagpieJoel]

Some of it is structure, some of it effort and some of it game plan.

We need to be more consistent with getting to contests and our pressure game going into the finals. Carlton showed us up because they were more consistent in getting to contests (the drop of the ball etc). I'm sure this is being drilled into them