Fixture Changes v Plastics Round 8

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

It feels like Bevs just such a sucker for training output that it seems to completely override what actually happens on the field. Every year we get somewhere close to our best team by half way through the season, the positional experiments fade out, the poster boys lose their automatic selection and we start to pick teams based on merit.

But then every year in round 1 it’s back to the same old s**t because he’s blinded by a hard worker in the preseason. This year we seem to have adjusted a little earlier though so fingers crossed it stays that way.

I agree this does tend to happen, but I actually don't think it really did this year. The round 1 team was very similar to the BF consensus, no? Arguably the only players who got into the team through a hard-working off-season were Darcy (who many had in their team anyway), Baker (who has clearly been best 22), Bruce (who was solid with nobody else really challenging him) and Hannan (who was a miss). I'm not sure one player really qualifies as what you're saying above. I actually think our team selection has been pretty good all year - more balanced than it has been in a long time.

 

[grassman75]

It's probably either Jones or McNeil really

Cant we just drop McComb or Hannan again?

 

[doggies ftw]

I agree this does tend to happen, but I actually don't think it really did this year. The round 1 team was very similar to the BF consensus, no? Arguably the only players who got into the team through a hard-working off-season were Darcy (who many had in their team anyway), Baker (who has clearly been best 22), Bruce (who was solid with nobody else really challenging him) and Hannan (who was a miss). I'm not sure one player really qualifies as what you're saying above. I actually think our team selection has been pretty good all year - more balanced than it has been in a long time.

Yeah fair, I’d argue not just for round 1 but over the first qtr of the season there’s probably 3 - Hannan, McComb, Croz who have all featured heavily when it’s pretty clear they shouldn’t be and whilst I had McLean in my round 1 side it’s been clear since then that he’s no longer best 22 and we’ve been a bit slow to react there (I suspect the unused sub on the weekend was the writing on the wall though and we won’t see him for a good month or two now)

But for the most part yeah team selection has been much better, mostly around the fact that we have settled the key positions on the ground - it’s not one ruck in one small out, next week a CHF out and a small defender in etc. We all got sucked in by Darcy’s preseason form and fell for the 4 tall fwds but I don’t think that was ever the plan, I think that threw us pretty badly but I’m not upset with the decision because Darcy’s form just forced it.

Was more just a point about how it usually goes for us and whilst it definitely hasn’t been as big a deal as most years I think it still showed a bit early in the season and has settled down nicely now, with results showing

 

[Libba39]

Doc adds some hardness and aggression to our backline which is something we have in short supply imho.

Agree! When game was in dispute he was going harder than any of our other players.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Yeah fair, I’d argue not just for round 1 but over the first qtr of the season there’s probably 3 - Hannan, McComb, Croz who have all featured heavily when it’s pretty clear they shouldn’t be and whilst I had McLean in my round 1 side it’s been clear since then that he’s no longer best 22 and we’ve been a bit slow to react there (I suspect the unused sub on the weekend was the writing on the wall though and we won’t see him for a good month or two now)

I think there are explanations for most of those guys to be honest. McLean has been sub ?3? times and was only brought back from being dropped after 45 disposals and 19 clearances or whatever it was - pretty hard not to pick him. Hannan I agree with, but our big lineups need speed and without Smith/Smith/Vandermeer/Bedendo/initially Jones & Weightman it was hard to find it elsewhere. Croz I thought was playing fine and we aren't exactly flush with those guys at the minute. And to be fair to McComb - he was brought in after we were getting absolutely destroyed in the contest & through lack of intensity, mostly playing as sub anyway. I get not being fans of some of these guys but our smaller depth has unfortunately been injured or desperately out of form.

Anyway - yep, agree that our structure etc has been quite stable so far. It's good to see. Now we just need a few more players to find some form.

 

[maddog37]

Yes. I think he's always going to be a polarising figure wherever he plays because his body language can look poor and when he's out of the contest he can look particularly ineffective.

He would rarely tear games apart (our game vs Freo last year aside) but he plays an important role in a difficult position.

I have to disagree here. I thought Lobb was very good in following up his ruck work at ground level and presents as an option in the forward half and as an outlet from the back half.

He is never gonna be a hard man but he knows where to be and chases well for a big guy. If anything I think he is still finding his feet and lacks confidence.

 

[Unorth]

I agree this does tend to happen, but I actually don't think it really did this year. The round 1 team was very similar to the BF consensus, no? Arguably the only players who got into the team through a hard-working off-season were Darcy (who many had in their team anyway), Baker (who has clearly been best 22), Bruce (who was solid with nobody else really challenging him) and Hannan (who was a miss). I'm not sure one player really qualifies as what you're saying above. I actually think our team selection has been pretty good all year - more balanced than it has been in a long time.

It looks like we pulled the pin on Hannan and McComb much earlier than past-Bev would have. Hopefully he continues to resist the temptation - I would even argue no matter their VFL form we have to keep them there unless we hit an injury crisis. Low floor, almost as low ceiling, about all you can say is that they can be trusted not to give up 3x 50m penalties per game like west or Garcia.

I think any argument in their favour has to revolve around that we want to win now and that they’re better than, or more reliable than, the young players we are playing in their place (McNeil, Jones). But I don’t think that’s true at all either.

But as you said above there were other factors in their early season selections beyond bevs fondness for Footscray, I think some of us are just scarred by continued selections of these kinds of players in the past.

 

[TiAn_]

Has been nice seeing like for like changes rather than a ruckman out for a half back, etc. Continuity is super important.

 

[doggies ftw]

I have to disagree here. I thought Lobb was very good in following up his ruck work at ground level and presents as an option in the forward half and as an outlet from the back half.

He is never gonna be a hard man but he knows where to be and chases well for a big guy. If anything I think he is still finding his feet and lacks confidence.

Yeah agree here, his mobility and follow up work has been better than expected for mine. To put in perspective he had more pressure points than Naughty/Marra combined, more than McNeil who is in the side as a pressure forward. Yeah he spends a little bit more time around the contest in the ruck where it’s easier to rack up PAs but still.

Really he just needs to stick a couple more of the contested marks he gets his hands on & convert well and we have a very handy cog in the side. And I agree these look like a confidence issue at the moment, I’m quietly confident he’s building pretty nicely after a poor start

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I think any argument in their favour has to revolve around that we want to win now and that they’re better than, or more reliable than, the young players we are playing in their place (McNeil, Jones). But I don’t think that’s true at all either.

To be honest - I know this is a cop out, but I think often fans look for concrete evidence of 'better' or 'worse' in the form of disposal efficiency, clangers, marks, goals, tackles, etc; whereas coaches tend to look for whether they are holding structure and impacting the contests they need to. More experienced players are often going to position themselves better, and their improved fitness/strength allows them to impact contests more consistently. That's why they regularly go back to the same well of 'low ceiling' players when playing games we need to win, and why fans don't get it.

Right now, from the perspective of a casual viewer, you're absolutely right. At some stage, though, I wouldn't be surprised to see Bev go back to the well if we start struggling, and it's hard to know if that would be the right call or not.

 

[Unorth]

To be honest - I know this is a cop out, but I think often fans look for concrete evidence of 'better' or 'worse' in the form of disposal efficiency, clangers, marks, goals, tackles, etc; whereas coaches tend to look for whether they are holding structure and impacting the contests they need to. More experienced players are often going to position themselves better, and their improved fitness/strength allows them to impact contests more consistently. That's why they regularly go back to the same well of 'low ceiling' players when playing games we need to win, and why fans don't get it.

Right now, from the perspective of a casual viewer, you're absolutely right. At some stage, though, I wouldn't be surprised to see Bev go back to the well if we start struggling, and it's hard to know if that would be the right call or not.

Yeah it’s hard to know especially since those fringe guys aren’t judged off counting stats that they’re never going to excel at, in every team.

But I can accept (for example) Roarke and Scott. Even though both had rough patches they both juuuust belong and, imo, have a justification if they’re picked (Although Roarke is probably out now that Baker and Williams are probably better). But I also have to admit everything we say about Hannan and McComb now, we were all saying about Scott and McNeil rounds 1-10 of 2021. Same for Gardner his first 30 games probably.

There’s also that the grass isn’t always greener - Garcia and West are both younger and more talented but give up free kicks and make some awful errors generally. We know they’re more talented which is why supporters ask for them, they get their shot and shoot themselves in the foot, and it’s clear why they don’t get trusted. On the other hand, Gardner and Scott got many many chances to become not-awful players…it’s hard.

I’m just of the baseless opinion that Bev can get carried away with his vfl quality, dependable ~27 y/o foot soldiers when we get similar or better production from younger players. There are intangibles that matter, which is clear when looking at the ill-disciplined Garcia and West, but I tend to think McComb and Hannan are just that out of their depth and there’s enough exposed form to make that call. Hannan has the physical attributes, but it’s clear why Melbourne happily canned him. McComb is undersized, slow, unskilled and played out of position anyway, so I just can’t be sold on that.

It’s more a philosophical thing at this point rather than how much Hannan/McComb over McNeil/AJ etc would actually have on a game week to week though. This of course is going back to Hayes and Gowers also.

Overall I’m happy with where we’re at now though. I think our turnaround in form has at least something to do with more sensible selections.

Edit: forgot to add that this whole thing applies to choosing ToB or Crozier over Cleary and Buku also.

 

[Nat Fyfe]

I have to disagree here. I thought Lobb was very good in following up his ruck work at ground level and presents as an option in the forward half and as an outlet from the back half.

He is never gonna be a hard man but he knows where to be and chases well for a big guy. If anything I think he is still finding his feet and lacks confidence.

His last two weeks have been much better than his first month. He’s always going to be our worst forward and worst ruck, but the important part is that he’s better than Cordy and Young ever were in that role, and he improves our structure. JUH is playing his best footy this year, and that’s not a coincidence

 

[Some Idiot]

Lobb trailed his opponent to every contest in rounds 1+3 but has been much better since. Might’ve just been the injury that was the problem.

 

[BIG_BONTS]

His ankles might be sore. Multiple times a game I wonder whether he’s injured.

 

[doggies ftw]

His ankles might be sore. Multiple times a game I wonder whether he’s injured.

I think he was down for a bit looking pretty sore holding his ankle after a contest, must still be affecting him a little

 

[Optimistic Dog]

Lobb trailed his opponent to every contest in rounds 1+3 but has been much better since. Might’ve just been the injury that was the problem.

I hate when gets a perfect pass and just waits for the ball to come him and gets intercepted happened at least twice against the hawks and plenty of times in the other 5 game he has played. It is not difficult to meet the ball just lazy and lack of thought.

 

[Next Waiting]

I think it will most likely be McLean out and Libba in. McSteal and Scott have been contributing and are part of a mix and developing combination that has potential. I'm keen to keep them in until such time as someone else is banging so hard on the door that they can't be denied....and I don't think we're there.

Keath may be vulnerable eventually to Gards but Gards may be in need of some game time in the VFL.

I'd like to keep the forward personnel together for an extended period unless someone is falling off a cliff over several weeks.

The bones seem to be there and there have been hints that the combo could get hold of someone. Some continuity of selection might see that eventuate.

 

[dogwatch]

It looks like we pulled the pin on Hannan and McComb much earlier than past-Bev would have. Hopefully he continues to resist the temptation - I would even argue no matter their VFL form we have to keep them there unless we hit an injury crisis. Low floor, almost as low ceiling, about all you can say is that they can be trusted not to give up 3x 50m penalties per game like west or Garcia.

I think any argument in their favour has to revolve around that we want to win now and that they’re better than, or more reliable than, the young players we are playing in their place (McNeil, Jones). But I don’t think that’s true at all either.

But as you said above there were other factors in their early season selections beyond bevs fondness for Footscray, I think some of us are just scarred by continued selections of these kinds of players in the past.

I'd be surprised if Garcia ever gives up 3x 50m penalties in one game again. Or even two.
He would have been told - we love the aggression but don't do any more of that stupid stuff.
It'll be a shame if in true BF fashion he gets labelled as a chronic 50m penalty risk based on that one game. Let's judge him on his next few games, not just that one shocker.

Can't recall West ever giving up 3 in one game - did it happen?

 

[goodcop badcop]

It feels like Bevs just such a sucker for training output that it seems to completely override what actually happens on the field. Every year we get somewhere close to our best team by half way through the season, the positional experiments fade out, the poster boys lose their automatic selection and we start to pick teams based on merit.

But then every year in round 1 it’s back to the same old s**t because he’s blinded by a hard worker in the preseason. This year we seem to have adjusted a little earlier though so fingers crossed it stays that way.

Perhaps it's not as bad early on, but Bevo still experiments late. Treloar and Hannan were half backs mid to late last year. I remember Hannan had one mediocre game in the VFL and was straight into the AFL side to play down back. We played Young as a No 1 ruckman late in the year and in two finals the year before as well. Schache too, played as a key defender late in that 2021 year after not playing any footy down back before. Bevo never fails to surprise.

If Bont went down injured, I wouldn't even be surprised if he replaced him with Hannan and started him in the centre bounces.

 

[Some Idiot]

I'd be surprised if Garcia ever gives up 3x 50m penalties in one game again. Or even two.
He would have been told - we love the aggression but don't do any more of that stupid stuff.
It'll be a shame if in true BF fashion he gets labelled as a chronic 50m penalty risk based on that one game. Let's judge him on his next few games, not just that one shocker.

Can't recall West ever giving up 3 in one game - did it happen?

I doubt he's manged 3 in a game, but I think the core point was that West has given away free kicks and 50m penalties with over-aggression at times

 

[doggies ftw]

Perhaps it's not as bad early on, but Bevo still experiments late. Treloar and Hannan were half backs mid to late last year. I remember Hannan had one mediocre game in the VFL and was straight into the AFL side to play down back. We played Young as a No 1 ruckman late in the year and in two finals the year before as well. Schache too, played as a key defender late in that 2021 year after not playing any footy down back before. Bevo never fails to surprise.

If Bont went down injured, I wouldn't even be surprised if he replaced him with Hannan and started him in the centre bounces.

Yeah very fair points although I’d argue some of those like Young/Schache were more out of necessity rather than just spinning the magnets for the sake of it.

It is concerning how quick we are to abandon an ‘experiment’ at times, I mean the 4 talls wasn’t great but everyone knew it was going to take more than 2 weeks for something like that to pay off. A lot of these moves last one week or even less, if you’re going to do it at least buy in and give it some sort of chance.

Honestly it can feel a bit like we’re just flinging shit at the wall at times and seeing what sticks, with no real direction to what we want to be as a football team. I can handle poor performances if there’s a clear directive with everyone pulling towards an obvious goal but I can’t stomach it when it’s a merry go round of random tactics and crap players.

The last month or so we’ve seemed a lot more settled which has me feeling a lot better about the year even if the results haven’t been amazing (but solid)

And yeah the Hannan love in just makes no sense to me, he’s not even your typical Bevo love child who does the non-negotiables well and is great ‘team’ cog. He’s a pretty selfish player tbh with huge swings between his best and worst, zero consistency - in reality he’s the worst kind of role player/bottom 6 because he can’t even be relied on to at least offer something defensively or stability to the team. Since when has Bevo ever liked guys like this? Yet here we are… it’s a head scratcher

 

[Dog 36]

Agree! When game was in dispute he was going harder than any of our other players.

He is also a very smart footballer and that is something we need footy smarts

 

[doggiesin08]

Yeah very fair points although I’d argue some of those like Young/Schache were more out of necessity rather than just spinning the magnets for the sake of it.

It is concerning how quick we are to abandon an ‘experiment’ at times, I mean the 4 talls wasn’t great but everyone knew it was going to take more than 2 weeks for something like that to pay off. A lot of these moves last one week or even less, if you’re going to do it at least buy in and give it some sort of chance.

Honestly it can feel a bit like we’re just flinging s**t at the wall at times and seeing what sticks, with no real direction to what we want to be as a football team. I can handle poor performances if there’s a clear directive with everyone pulling towards an obvious goal but I can’t stomach it when it’s a merry go round of random tactics and crap players.

The last month or so we’ve seemed a lot more settled which has me feeling a lot better about the year even if the results haven’t been amazing (but solid)

And yeah the Hannan love in just makes no sense to me, he’s not even your typical Bevo love child who does the non-negotiables well and is great ‘team’ cog. He’s a pretty selfish player tbh with huge swings between his best and worst, zero consistency - in reality he’s the worst kind of role player/bottom 6 because he can’t even be relied on to at least offer something defensively or stability to the team. Since when has Bevo ever liked guys like this? Yet here we are… it’s a head scratcher

The Hannan moves last year were super confusing. Missed a big stretch with injury, 1 game back in the VFL playing forward, mid-week contact extension and the into the AFL team in the backline

We also went into our final against Freo with a tall forward group of Naughton, JUH and Darcy who had spent all of 1/2 a game together up forward in the final round of the H&A season (with Bruce there also). For all our complaints about Spangher we haven’y made it easy for the bloke.

Sometimes though you fling ** at the wall and it sticks. Dale to the backline was unplanned, happened mid-way through the final pre-season match a couple of years ago and worked brilliantly. It makes you wonder if the VFL should just occasionally do random ** like this either with young players or before we get rid of a player.

 

[dogwatch]

I doubt he's manged 3 in a game, but I think the core point was that West has given away free kicks and 50m penalties with over-aggression at times

It's a tough one because there are frequent calls here for our players to show more aggression, be more physical and in the faces of the opposition. I agree they have both slightly overstepped the line at times but these are the exact types of player that people are calling for, so it seems a shame that they get criticised here for doing what the fans are demanding.

Hopefully MC see it differently and these two have only ever been dropped on form, not for being (slightly) too aggressive.
We don't want to squelch that stuff, we just want them to pick their moments a little better.

 

[dogwatch]

Sometimes though you fling ** at the wall and it sticks. Dale to the backline was unplanned, happened mid-way through the final pre-season match a couple of years ago and worked brilliantly. It makes you wonder if the VFL should just occasionally do random ** like this either did young players or before we get rid of a player.

True, for every few moves that fail there are some great successes like Dale, MBoyd and yes, Caleb Daniel who also became an AA when moved back.

I suspect that you have to get the timing right though. If we'd started Liam Jones as a KPD he might still have taken until his mid-20s to really show his stuff. We don't know (other than he wasn't a howling success in a couple of brief appearances in defence). Same with Bailey Dale. He arrived at VUWO looking like an U15 kid on work experience and probably wasn't ready for the rigours of being a rebounding half back. At HFF you can slip quietly into the senior team and not cost your team too much if you fumble a play. Then you can build your confidence from there.

Another reason may be that players arrive at senior level seeing themselves in a certain role (forward, back, whatever) but a sequence of a few bad games there destroys their confidence. When moved to a different role the player has to have a different mindset and they start with a clean sheet. That can break the cycle of self-doubt. It could have been what happened with Dale. The point being that it is only effective when they have already had some playing history in a different role.