List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion 2022--> PART 2

[Wearmouth]

He was never going to make it as an AFL player. I am very surprised that North did not recognise this before taking him on.

Treloar won’t be far from being moved on by the Fleabags either now that his best mate is gone.

Is now on borrowed time.


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[magpies42]

He was never going to make it as an AFL player. I am very surprised that North did not recognise this before taking him on.

I thought he showed a great deal of promise with the one game he got, or was it two? I guess he had a lot to learn, football instinct is hard to teach.

 

[ToonAussie]

Not really inexperienced given he's been playing against men since 15. He was a decent junior who everyone expected to go inside the Top 25. Until COVID hit. People were shocked Chuggy got chosen over him, too. Jacko made headlines most weeks as a junior - Chuggy had fleeting mentions in the stories Jacko was the headline, if that. But Chugg also had athleticism that Jacko didn't so that played a part.

As for his maturity ... I have some inside info on that one and can say you're not far off. He's a loveable larrikin and owns it. In saying that, professionalism and maturity were not his strongest suits.

He would've worked well a decade or two ago when the AFL had slightly looser standards and forwards didn't need to be athletic masters.

If he came to Collingwood, he would be loved but he's not our saviour as a forward.

EDIT: I would like to add that I have a lot of respect for Callow and fan engagement/giving back is something he is good at. However, he has shortcomings, too. Most Hawthorn fans thought he was a good mark but had weaknesses as well. If Collingwood took a punt on him in the rookies, he would embrace the opportunity, too.

Nice post, but look up the meaning of "callow" in the dictionary and you may be more in tune with OA's delightful post and responses.

 

[Bianconeri]

I think it will. A lockdown tall actually gives less freedom to the other talls, as the lockdown player is less likely to be in position to cut across and help out, thus leaving the interceptor more exposed against their own man. I don't think Roughy and Murphy have played tighter because we want a lockdown one on one defender. I think they've played tighter because they're slower and thus can't give their man as much rope. Moore was sensational in the finals against Hawkins and the half he played on Buddy. We don't need to "release" him to less of an opposition focal point. Three Darcy Moore's would be an incredible tall defence.

On Moore’s performance against Buddy you neglect the fact he was contained by Reid in the first half and could have done with some “freeing up”.

I think most of the freeing up that comes from a lockdown defender is engaging his man one on one and allowing the intercepter to be unimpeded.

 

[Scodog10]

Bit harsh. And also wrong. No superstar, but Madgen was a regular in the second half of 2020. We did win a final that year.

You’re wrong. Astute call. Madgen = list clogger.

If Frampton comes in and delivers at the same level I’ll be equally blunt. I’m confident he won’t though because Frampton > Madgen based on 20-22.

As a value proposition 3 years is a logical decision. Two years is the bare minimum you offer a pro scouted player and three is the offer you make to a guy you believe will be best 22…

 

[Scodog10]

I think it will. A lockdown tall actually gives less freedom to the other talls, as the lockdown player is less likely to be in position to cut across and help out, thus leaving the interceptor more exposed against their own man. I don't think Roughy and Murphy have played tighter because we want a lockdown one on one defender. I think they've played tighter because they're slower and thus can't give their man as much rope. Moore was sensational in the finals against Hawkins and the half he played on Buddy. We don't need to "release" him to less of an opposition focal point. Three Darcy Moore's would be an incredible tall defence.

As someone that’s previously been strong on us needing an anchoring KPD I’ve come around on this one. I’m just not sure there’s anyone capable of playing that lockdown role in a successful team anymore. Sure it might allow you to shutout the oppositions main tall, but the cost is too high in other areas. In the short term it places Murphy’s role under pressure until Howe finishes up, IMO.

Your follow on post re defensive setup brings back vivid memories of the Lynch footage post Rd 9. I never post in game day threads, but I can only imagine the rage at Moore not tightening up. The real issue though is further up the ground when we afford the opposition midfield too much time. Lynch and Hawkins are similar forwards in that they aren’t going to beat the zone defense by running around it ala Cameron, but Moore’s game on Hawkins in the QF completely nullified him. The difference was the heat around the contest.

I may have slightly more confidence in Frampton having tracked him a little, but one thing I can state categorically is that like other fringe guys we’ve recruited recently (Lipinski, Kreuger and Hill) he has AFL traits. The key will be system fit, fitness and buy in. The best way I can explain for anyone unconvinced by Adelaide’s system v ours is that if Hawkins is deep v Frampton at Adelaide aside from Doedee no one is coming over to chop out Frampton unless they’re being drawn to the contest with an opponent. At Collingwood Howe/ Maynard/ Moore/ Murphy etc. are expected to make that contest instinctively. Frampton is then expected to do the same for others defending one out and utilise his intercept marking.

 

[sr36]

As someone that’s previously been strong on us needing an anchoring KPD I’ve come around on this one. I’m just not sure there’s anyone capable of playing that lockdown role in a successful team anymore. Sure it might allow you to shutout the oppositions main tall, but the cost is too high in other areas. In the short term it places Murphy’s role under pressure until Howe finishes up, IMO.

Your follow on post re defensive setup brings back vivid memories of the Lynch footage post Rd 9. I never post in game day threads, but I can only imagine the rage at Moore not tightening up. The real issue though is further up the ground when we afford the opposition midfield too much time. Lynch and Hawkins are similar forwards in that they aren’t going to beat the zone defense by running around it ala Cameron, but Moore’s game on Hawkins in the QF completely nullified him. The difference was the heat around the contest.

I may have slightly more confidence in Frampton having tracked him a little, but one thing I can state categorically is that like other fringe guys we’ve recruited recently (Lipinski, Kreuger and Hill) he has AFL traits. The key will be system fit, fitness and buy in. The best way I can explain for anyone unconvinced by Adelaide’s system v ours is that if Hawkins is deep v Frampton at Adelaide aside from Doedee no one is coming over to chop out Frampton unless they’re being drawn to the contest with an opponent. At Collingwood Howe/ Maynard/ Moore/ Murphy etc. are expected to make that contest instinctively. Frampton is then expected to do the same for others defending one out and utilise his intercept marking.

The other beauty of them all playing helping man is that when it does turn over, they've got a break on their opponent to start with and can get on their bike and slingshot it out of there more easily.

 

[brysie]

As others have noted above, it's horses for courses regarding defensive set ups. Our defenders are now working as a unit, with the aim of maintaining enough distance between them that allows one or more to drop off their man once the ball is in flight going into the 50.

The advantage Frampton has over someone like Howe is not a lock down ability per se, but it's his reach. Where reach (or lack thereof) becomes an issue is when someone who is taller than average (i.e. Ben Brown

50

Ben Brown

Age

31

Ht

200cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.7

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

3.0

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.2

3star

G

2.2

5star

D

7.9

2star

K

6.3

3star

HB

1.6

1star

M

3.7

4star

T

0.9

2star

G

1.0

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.4

4star

G

1.2

4star

, Peter Wright) is able to get separation and extend their arms, thereby increasing their chances of either marking the ball or drawing a free kick for chopping of the arms.

A good example this season was in our second game against Melbourne - Howe was required to try and nullify Ben Brown

50

Ben Brown

Age

31

Ht

200cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.7

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

3.0

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.2

3star

G

2.2

5star

D

7.9

2star

K

6.3

3star

HB

1.6

1star

M

3.7

4star

T

0.9

2star

G

1.0

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.4

4star

G

1.2

4star

, and admittedly did the best he could, however he was unable to make up for Brown's size advantage when he was isolated and the ball was kicked overhead.

The other obvious aid to defenders is having pressure on the ball up the field as it not only allows your defenders to coalesce and maintain their preferred distance, but reduces the likelihood of an opposition player being able to lace out a leading forward. When good forwards are on the lead, it's nigh-on impossible to stop them from marking the ball if the delivery is good, irrespective of your lock down ability.

 

[KinderSmock]

Nice post, but look up the meaning of "callow" in the dictionary and you may be more in tune with OA's delightful post and responses.

I have now expanded my vocabulary.

 

[sideswipe]

You’re wrong. Astute call. Madgen = list clogger.

If Frampton comes in and delivers at the same level I’ll be equally blunt. I’m confident he won’t though because Frampton > Madgen based on 20-22.

As a value proposition 3 years is a logical decision. Two years is the bare minimum you offer a pro scouted player and three is the offer you make to a guy you believe will be best 22…

I was just responding to your call that Madgen was only ever a regular in '21. Which wasn't the case.

 

[NMBB]

I have now expanded my vocabulary.

BF helps in surprising ways

 

[Bianconeri]

You’re wrong. Astute call. Madgen = list clogger.

If Frampton comes in and delivers at the same level I’ll be equally blunt. I’m confident he won’t though because Frampton > Madgen based on 20-22.

As a value proposition 3 years is a logical decision. Two years is the bare minimum you offer a pro scouted player and three is the offer you make to a guy you believe will be best 22…

In the short term it places Murphy’s role under pressure until Howe finishes up, IMO.

I think one only has to look at how much of an upgrade Murphy is on Madgen whilst there still being questions marks over Murphy being best 22 to see how far off Madgen was.

 

[Scodog10]

I think one only has to look at how much of an upgrade Murphy is on Madgen whilst there still being questions marks over Murphy being best 22 to see how far off Madgen was.

Apparently not if you ask some! Madgen’s role at the club over the past 3 years is more out of sheer bad luck than design through poor list management and injuries to Howe, Murphy, Roughead and Dean. Amazingly he showed more in an 8 week forward stint at the back end of 2022 than he did in the 2.5 years building up to it as a defender…

 

[Scodog10]

I was just responding to your call that Madgen was only ever a regular in '21. Which wasn't the case.

True he seemed to play a bit in the back end of 2020.

Returning to GC’s earlier comments on team quality it’s interesting to note the record of a good team with Madgen v a poor team with Frampton. Collingwood with Madgen was 19-24-1 and without him 16-4. Conversely Adelaide’s record with Frampton was 9-12 and without him it was 9-31.

I mean it makes as much sense as the “can’t get a game in a bad team so he can’t be better than a guy getting a game in a good team” argument

 

[shizzle]

 

[AmericanMustard]

The right decision. Not sure there could be much, if any debate about it

 

[Pragmatic Shill]

Poulter a bit stiff in my view.

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[sideswipe]

True he seemed to play a bit in the back end of 2020.

Returning to GC’s earlier comments on team quality it’s interesting to note the record of a good team with Madgen v a poor team with Frampton. Collingwood with Madgen was 19-24-1 and without him 16-4. Conversely Adelaide’s record with Frampton was 9-12 and without him it was 9-31.

I mean it makes as much sense as the “can’t get a game in a bad team so he can’t be better than a guy getting a game in a good team” argument

I think you can use your time better.

 

[JM#1]

Sad to see Poulter go.

 

[Exambolor]

Poulter a bit stiff in my view.

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Unfortunately a victim of Jaicos having a career season and Sidey having a late resurgence

 

[JuniorB]

Poulter a bit stiff in my view.

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Agreed, but something had to give.
I guess the lack of senior games for Poulter was a fair indication that he wasn't in the club's plans.
No surprise on Madge - a good bloke and clubman, but he was never going to get more senior games.
Murley has pace, but is still small. Redrafting him as a rookie gives him a chance to develop.
It means he & Noble have effectively swapped places on the list.

 

[What is a cakewalk]

Poulter a bit stiff in my view.

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Agree, has shown more than plenty who have been given longer. But imo his attributes just don't add up to a position that he can play at afl level. For his size he needs to be a lot better in the contest.

 

[Pragmatic Shill]

With Murley being added to the rookie list, we have 0 Cat A spots available.

We will be drafting 4 players in the National Draft (not including Noble's upgrade).

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[Bianconeri]

Unfortunately a victim of Jaicos having a career season and Sidey having a late resurgence

I think Bianco’s late season form as a depth player was the final nail in the coffin

 

[magpies2013]

Derek Hine should be the one delisted