List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I view last year's 17th as an aberration - a perfect sh*t-storm, but view us as a mid-table side on the way down - basically I think the top half of our list will deteriorate over the next two years (even if our results don't). I don't think a high priced 26+ year old is what we should be targetting, as I think we should be looking to rebuild for further down the track.

Fair enough. I think we need to keep a more open mind. Rebounds can occur very quickly, especially when the drop was an aberration... Sydney and Port recently are good examples as is to a lesser extent Brisbane and Melbourne. I don’t see too many of our 30+ players as irreplaceable. Only Pendles....he’s a once in a generation player.

 

[sr36]

Fair enough. I think we need to keep a more open mind. Rebounds can occur very quickly, especially when the drop was an aberration... Sydney and Port recently are good examples as is to a lesser extent Brisbane and Melbourne. I don’t see too many of our 30+ players as irreplaceable. Only Pendles....he’s a once in a generation player.

I don't think anyone in the league is irreplaceable - Cats and Hawks played bloody good footy after losing Buddy and Ablett. And yes, I wouldn't write us off - a FA agent might be appropriate earlier than I'm suggesting if our kids develop really quickly, but think it's pretty unlikely that over the next few couple of years the talented kids we have obtained will exceed the likely deterioration from our older players - even Elliott and Mihocek are 29 before the start of the season. I just think our list is still on its way down and wouldn't target a free agent until the list is back on the way up. I'm talking list and not ladder position, as I think our ladder position will improve next year.

 

[Jen2310]

I view last year's 17th as an aberration - a perfect sh*t-storm, but view us as a mid-table side on the way down - basically I think the top half of our list will deteriorate over the next two years (even if our results don't). I don't think a high priced 26+ year old is what we should be targetting, as I think we should be looking to rebuild for further down the track.

Agreed. We may not be a top list side, but no way are we are a bottom 2 side on paper. I'm in the belief the off field stuff from the start of the year plus game plan/inability to move the ball contributed to the way we went.
We now have half the list as kids. Believe we had 14 kids on our list in 2021 20 years or younger. in 2022 we will have 20 players with 10 or less games experience.
It'll take some time, but once they are ready, games will need to be put into them as they'll be the ones to take us forward.

eta: I also wouldnt be surprised if we ended up between 13-15 on the ladder. Will definitely do better.

 

[Abdul_The_Bull]

I see us being better than Gold Coast Suns, North Melbourne, Carlton and potentially even Hawthorn (new coach, etc.) and Fremantle. That puts us mid-tier (12-14) so not as bad as our ladder position this year. With some good fortune and an early assimilation of what seems to be a good game plan we may well improve on that. I'd be happy with a mid-tier performance, all things considered.

 

[Matrix10]

My hope is that we don't chase a high profile free agent next year. Better to be patient, bank some salary cap and wait until our kids develop so we know what player types to chase

Very clear, concise ,calculated , well mapped , planned out strategy there SR. Don’t like it

 

[jonbe54]

I see us being better than Gold Coast Suns, North Melbourne, Carlton and potentially even Hawthorn (new coach, etc.) and Fremantle. That puts us mid-tier (12-14) so not as bad as our ladder position this year. With some good fortune and an early assimilation of what seems to be a good game plan we may well improve on that. I'd be happy with a mid-tier performance, all things considered.

I think mid tier is a realistic upside view.

The game plan and the higher accountability expectations both on and off the field point to a tightening of discipline.

That alone should lift us the ladder somewhat.

Everything else is imponderable.

 

[DERKADERRR]

I agree with some that last year was a bit of an aberration however our depth is lacking and I'm not sure that we'll see that spike in improvement from our youth to see us be able to compensate for injuries yet. If everything goes right I could see us exceeding expectations, our list is in a pretty similar position to that of the Bulldogs 2016 team, with a lot of veterans around and over the age of 30 and not much in the mid 20s range, but a lot of exceptional youngsters playing out of their skins in a game plan that suited them. Basically I have no expectations next year and wouldn't be surprised if we finish last or 1st, it's more than likely we'll be mid tier though. My one prediction for next year is that Hawthorn will finish last.

 

[Mick F]

Fair enough. I think we need to keep a more open mind. Rebounds can occur very quickly, especially when the drop was an aberration... Sydney and Port recently are good examples as is to a lesser extent Brisbane and Melbourne. I don’t see too many of our 30+ players as irreplaceable. Only Pendles....he’s a once in a generation player.

However there remains a fair burden upon our 29+ players.

 

[RobJD]

If you put the rose tinted glasses down, we’re effectively a glorified list of VFL players, with a sprinkling of seasoned veterans. Throw in a new coach / system, and this year has spoon written all over it…

hopefully we’re at least competitive, so our kids get a decent run at playing more than just defence all year

I'm a little more bullish about our 2022 potential - reckon we'll be at least as good as we were in '21 with some luck on the injury front. We lost 5 games by 2 goals or less and we should get a significantly softer draw this year.

 

[Jen2310]

I'm a little more bullish about our 2022 potential - reckon we'll be at least as good as we were in '21 with some luck on the injury front. We lost 5 games by 2 goals or less and we should get a significantly softer draw this year.

Its also funny what some luck does too.

Win the 1 point losses of lions and port that puts us 13th. Win the 10 point loss v Geelong and the 16 v dogs, the freo by 12 saints by 9, then our position would not have been that bad this year.
And we had injuries to adams, moore, Pendles.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

However there remains a fair burden upon our 29+ players.

Not convinced about that. Our best and most important players include Grundy DeGoey Cameron Crisp Adams Maynard and Moore ... all in the sweet spot age wise (ignoring injury and off field issue for some) . Add J Daicos and Quaynor to that with natural progression and maybe not write Mihocek and Elliott off just yet..... that’s a solid core.

Howe and Pendlebury are the most important over 30s ... Sidey Roughy WHE etc easily replaceable.

 

[Mollythedolly]

My hope is that we don't chase a high profile free agent next year. Better to be patient, bank some salary cap and wait until our kids develop so we know what player types to chase

I think we’ll be getting a good read on the kids we’ve added over the last couple of trade-draft periods by the end of the 2022 season. They may not be the finished product but they’ll have set the foundations.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I think we’ll be getting a good read on the kids we’ve added over the last couple of trade-draft periods by the end of the 2022 season. They may not be the finished product but they’ll have set the foundations.

Even if it’s only two or three of them that make a material impact in 2022 that will be a huge boost. Others will take longer.

I’ve seen enough from Henry and MacRae to be confident that they will progress significantly next year, and of course we all have high immediate hopes for Daicos.

If one or two of McInnes Poulter McCreery Bianco Kelly T Brown Ruscoe also fast track, then that’s a bonus.

 

[Mollythedolly]

I suppose it is defeatist in that I don't think we'll be ready to have a genuine crack in the next couple of years. My opinion may change next year if there are enough really good signs. But at this stage, my view is that Free Agents are the wrong age group for us at the moment, as they're all 26+ and getting one now will tie up cap and reduce our scope to be more targetted regarding player type with free agents in the future.

Players aged 26+ Can still contribute significantly. Even if we target specific players for specific roles (ie: Roughy replacement). They don’t need to be those elite high cost types.

 

[sr36]

Players aged 26+ Can still contribute significantly. Even if we target specific players for specific roles (ie: Roughy replacement). They don’t need to be those elite high cost types.

Yeah, I'm only talking about not adding high cost FAs. Although, I probably would prefer us to go younger with cheap mature age recruits too - to help fill the age gap that we are currently lacking.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yeah, I'm only talking about not adding high cost FAs. Although, I probably would prefer us to go younger with cheap mature age recruits too - to help fill the age gap that we are currently lacking.

Lipinski and Krueger help to that aim to balance the demographics a bit this year. Plus Dean is a little older. Not sure we need to rush out and deliberately chase players in that early 20s age group… that horse has bolted. Wait a year or two and we will have plenty of them

 

[RobJD]

Not convinced about that. Our best and most important players include Grundy DeGoey Cameron Crisp Adams Maynard and Moore ... all in the sweet spot age wise (ignoring injury and off field issue for some) . Add J Daicos and Quaynor to that with natural progression and maybe not write Mihocek and Elliott off just yet..... that’s a solid core.

Howe and Pendlebury are the most important over 30s ... Sidey Roughy WHE etc easily replaceable.

Agree, one of McRae's challenges will be how he blends his preferred playing style with the capabilities and development of the playing group. Our best Defensive Group is borderline elite (Roughy, Moore, Howe, Maynard, Quaynor, Crisp), there's excellence in our Mids (Grundy, Adams, Pendles, De Goey) and our forwards and wings are heavily exposed. This means we're lacking in two key areas, the kick out of defensive 50 and the kick into attacking 50 - our finishing position next year is dependant on the adopted blend of capability versus the need to develop our youth.

 

[whiskeytown]

Bottom 5-6 if key injuries are minimal and kind... but they never are at Collingwood

Otherwise bottom 2-4... if the usual key position injuries occur...

Should be right for young legs if there are injuries in the middle

I tip Kangas or Hawks for the spoon

Hawks late year Clarko inspired form gone... as Mitchell inevitably tinkers with the line up and game plan

 

[jonbe54]

Agree, one of McRae's challenges will be how he blends his preferred playing style with the capabilities and development of the playing group. Our best Defensive Group is borderline elite (Roughy, Moore, Howe, Maynard, Quaynor, Crisp), there's excellence in our Mids (Grundy, Adams, Pendles, De Goey) and our forwards and wings are heavily exposed. This means we're lacking in two key areas, the kick out of defensive 50 and the kick into attacking 50 - our finishing position next year is dependant on the adopted blend of capability versus the need to develop our youth.

Youth development overall needs prioritizing.

 

[RobJD]

Youth development overall needs prioritizing.

Winning games is developmental too.

 

[jonbe54]

Winning games is developmental too.

That's why is said 'overall'.

Didn't expect I would need to explain that.

 

[sr36]

Lipinski and Krueger help to that aim to balance the demographics a bit this year. Plus Dean is a little older. Not sure we need to rush out and deliberately chase players in that early 20s age group… that horse has bolted. Wait a year or two and we will have plenty of them

The age hole isn't an issue because you need blokes in their early 20s for now - it's an issue because in four years time when that group is 25-28 - that group will probably be the dominant group in the AFL. I agree that it isn't anything we need to rush - just add one or two to that group every year for the next couple of years - like we did this year.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Youth development overall needs prioritizing.

That’s going to happen by default anyway with only Cox C Brown and Madgen on the list as genuine depth players… for the second year straight, kids have replaced experienced players with Lipinksi the only “experienced” player traded in over those two years.

Any injuries or suspension, and the kids will get the call up.

 

[Jen2310]

Dean has had the added bonus of having played against AFL players during his time at Williamstown, so that will put him in good stead

 

[JuniorB]

The age hole isn't an issue because you need blokes in their early 20s for now - it's an issue because in four years time when that group is 25-28 - that group will probably be the dominant group in the AFL. I agree that it isn't anything we need to rush - just add one or two to that group every year for the next couple of years - like we did this year.

We have the age hole because we frittered away a bunch of first round draft picks - the 2 for Beams hurt the most, because we got nothing out of it.