List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion

[Kappa]

We have the age hole because we frittered away a bunch of first round draft picks - the 2 for Beams hurt the most, because we got nothing out of it.

Beams Treloar Stephenson scharenberg freeman… that’s 7 crucial early first round picks down the down for nothing. It takes a long long time to recover from that.

 

[sr36]

We have the age hole because we frittered away a bunch of first round draft picks - the 2 for Beams hurt the most, because we got nothing out of it.

And Daicos the only one looking likely from later in the draft. Just lots of draft misses. Hopefully the Browns or Murphy can turn it around, maybe Wilson or Keane - I don't like their chances though.

 

[jonbe54]

We have the age hole because we frittered away a bunch of first round draft picks - the 2 for Beams hurt the most, because we got nothing out of it.

Picks were poor but the strategy was no different than other clubs considering themselves to be 'in the window'.

SOP

Sadly the picks were poor.

 

[RobJD]

The thing that I don't like about our list is that it's neither fish nor fowl - there's a strong elite component (that indicates a potential to challenge) and there's a strong youth component (that indicates re-build). The elite component has too many gaps to challenge (unless there is some inordinate development in the youth - like the Bombers got in 1993) . The youth rebuild doesn't appear to me to have an appropriate structure - generally, sides rebuild around an emerging spine. Given the difficulty we've had in drafting or recruiting quality Ruck/KPF, we're at risk of developing a new side that has identical problems to the sides that contended (and failed at the last step) in 2002/2003/2018.

 

[jmac70]

The thing that I don't like about our list is that it's neither fish nor fowl - there's a strong elite component (that indicates a potential to challenge) and there's a strong youth component (that indicates re-build). The elite component has too many gaps to challenge (unless there is some inordinate development in the youth - like the Bombers got in 1993) . The youth rebuild doesn't appear to me to have an appropriate structure - generally, sides rebuild around an emerging spine. Given the difficulty we've had in drafting or recruiting quality Ruck/KPF, we're at risk of developing a new side that has identical problems to the sides that contended (and failed at the last step) in 2002/2003/2018.

It’s beef.

 

[jonbe54]

The thing that I don't like about our list is that it's neither fish nor fowl - there's a strong elite component (that indicates a potential to challenge) and there's a strong youth component (that indicates re-build). The elite component has too many gaps to challenge (unless there is some inordinate development in the youth - like the Bombers got in 1993) . The youth rebuild doesn't appear to me to have an appropriate structure - generally, sides rebuild around an emerging spine. Given the difficulty we've had in drafting or recruiting quality Ruck/KPF, we're at risk of developing a new side that has identical problems to the sides that contended (and failed at the last step) in 2002/2003/2018.

Rebuilds take time and this one has just started, of course it's going to be off centered for a while - that's why it's called a rebuild.

 

[sr36]

The thing that I don't like about our list is that it's neither fish nor fowl - there's a strong elite component (that indicates a potential to challenge) and there's a strong youth component (that indicates re-build). The elite component has too many gaps to challenge (unless there is some inordinate development in the youth - like the Bombers got in 1993) . The youth rebuild doesn't appear to me to have an appropriate structure - generally, sides rebuild around an emerging spine. Given the difficulty we've had in drafting or recruiting quality Ruck/KPF, we're at risk of developing a new side that has identical problems to the sides that contended (and failed at the last step) in 2002/2003/2018.

That's been a common theory, and the expansion teams and others have certainly tried it, but history hasn't required it.

Cats got Scarlett first. Then traded in Mooney at the same time as they drafted all those gun mids and flankers. Ottens traded in later. Then guys like Egan, Harley and Taylor added later again.

Hawks got Mitchell and Hodge before Buddy and Roughhead and Lewis at the same time as them. Then later added the tall defenders and Gunston (They traded out Croad to load up with mids as they thought they already had a spine, but by the time the mids were ready, the spine had vanished and needed re-loading)

Dees added their super intercept defenders after they already had a young exciting midfield.

But Tiges got Riewoldt and Rance first, before Dusty, Cotchin and Prestia.

 

[Kirby]

It’s beef.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

We have the age hole because we frittered away a bunch of first round draft picks - the 2 for Beams hurt the most, because we got nothing out of it.

Thanks for the news update.

 

[JuniorB]

The thing that I don't like about our list is that it's neither fish nor fowl - there's a strong elite component (that indicates a potential to challenge) and there's a strong youth component (that indicates re-build). The elite component has too many gaps to challenge (unless there is some inordinate development in the youth - like the Bombers got in 1993) . The youth rebuild doesn't appear to me to have an appropriate structure - generally, sides rebuild around an emerging spine. Given the difficulty we've had in drafting or recruiting quality Ruck/KPF, we're at risk of developing a new side that has identical problems to the sides that contended (and failed at the last step) in 2002/2003/2018.

They did say that this year was more of a midfielders draft & that next year's will have a number of KPPs. A very good reason why we didn't (& couldn't) trade next year's 1st.

 

[JuniorB]

Beams Treloar Stephenson scharenberg freeman… that’s 7 crucial early first round picks down the down for nothing. It takes a long long time to recover from that.

Yep. Freeman's still trying to get a gig & we gave away Treloar & Stephenson for peanuts.

 

[Kappa]

Yep. Freeman's still trying to get a gig & we gave away Treloar & Stephenson for peanuts.

Also still have to pay some of Treloar's salary for the next 4 years, and that's not even counting Beams who we also had to pay to sit on the sidelines.

Total disaster is putting it mildly.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I’m with sr36, I don’t think 2022 is the year to chase a FA.

a) it would compromise any De Goey compensation
b) adding a high-priced player who is going into their age-27 season, to a group of 19yo’s would only push us into Ninthmond territory and prolong mediocrity
c) it might stifle development of the guys we’ve drafted, who need opportunity to see what they’ve got

 

[RobJD]

Rebuilds take time and this one has just started, of course it's going to be off centered for a while - that's why it's called a rebuild.

Sure, my point is that our rebuild is not only off centre, it's lacking in key elements. Of most concern is that the key elements that are missing are the ones that have the longest lead time to develop and are the most difficult to draft or recruit, especially KPF, and in Collingwood's case, quality Ruckmen. Can we consider that we've started our re-build to our next Premiership whilst we don't have a semblance of an emerging spine? This is not meant to be a criticism of our recruiting or drafting, just an observation to temper thought of a quick rebuild back to a Premiership team (I'm too old to be concerned with contending).

 

[JuniorB]

I’m with sr36, I don’t think 2022 is the year to chase a FA.

a) it would compromise any De Goey compensation
b) adding a high-priced player who is going into their age-27 season, to a group of 19yo’s would only push us into Ninthmond territory and prolong mediocrity
c) it might stifle development of the guys we’ve drafted, who need opportunity to see what they’ve got

I agree. That's why I couldn't see why we would go after someone like Gunston. If we went after a younger out of contract player like Logan MacDonald, that would be more like it.

 

[RobJD]

They did say that this year was more of a midfielders draft & that next year's will have a number of KPPs. A very good reason why we didn't (& couldn't) trade next year's 1st.

That's the hard thing about rebuilding from the draft, you've got to get the timing right - seems like every year is a mid-fielders draft so the key is picking the KPF drafts and taking risks to get them.

 

[JuniorB]

That's the hard thing about rebuilding from the draft, you've got to get the timing right - seems like every year is a mid-fielders draft so the key is picking the KPF drafts and taking risks to get them.

If we can somehow get another first rounder next year (De Goey compensation pick?), we should be able to draft 2 promising KPPs

 

[jonbe54]

Sure, my point is that our rebuild is not only off centre, it's lacking in key elements. Of most concern is that the key elements that are missing are the ones that have the longest lead time to develop and are the most difficult to draft or recruit, especially KPF, and in Collingwood's case, quality Ruckmen. Can we consider that we've started our re-build to our next Premiership whilst we don't have a semblance of an emerging spine? This is not meant to be a criticism of our recruiting or drafting, just an observation to temper thought of a quick rebuild back to a Premiership team (I'm too old to be concerned with contending).

Rob surely you know that in general KPP's and Rucks are the rarest of beasts in the draft generally?

Midfielders are by comparison a dime a dozen and this draft in particular was almost a pure midfielder draft.

Next draft is reputed to be deep in both numbers and quality of talls.

So although I share your awareness that we lack big man power it's always a matter of availability and affordability.

We had so many holes both through the lines and age brackets, we've bolstered our midfield and added some lesser forward options but haven't yet been able to access true KPP's or rucks due to a combination of availability and the relative weakness of our draft hand.

That should change next PSD so it's a case of fix what you can with what's available and work on what you want when it becomes available.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[RobJD]

Rob surely you know that in general KPP's and Rucks are the rarest of beasts in the draft generally?

Midfielders are by comparison a dime a dozen and this draft in particular was almost a pure midfielder draft.

Next draft is reputed to be deep in both numbers and quality of talls.

So although I share your awareness that we lack big man power it's always a matter of availability and affordability.

We had so many holes both through the lines and age brackets, we've bolstered our midfield and added some lesser forward options but haven't yet been able to access true KPP's or rucks due to a combination of availability and the relative weakness of our draft hand.

That should change next PSD so it's a case of fix what you can with what's available and work on what you want when it becomes available.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Yep, I think we're in violent agreement. Maybe we can consider the re-build to have started next year!

 

[Jasper84]

Might be a bold, one eyed call but I think we still have the best defensive unit in the league...if they all are on the park.

 

[RobJD]

Might be a bold, one eyed call but I think we still have the best defence in the league...if they all are on the park.

Agree, I'd rate the back 6 elite.

 

[Jasper84]

Agree, I'd rate the back 6 elite.

If we can get a cohesive midfield who doesn't turn it over like a cement mixer on crack, the back six (and probably the forwards) will do their job soundly most weeks.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I’m with sr36, I don’t think 2022 is the year to chase a FA.

a) it would compromise any De Goey compensation
b) adding a high-priced player who is going into their age-27 season, to a group of 19yo’s would only push us into Ninthmond territory and prolong mediocrity
c) it might stifle development of the guys we’ve drafted, who need opportunity to see what they’ve got

On the other hand….

(A) What if we keep DeGoey who backs up the second half of 2021 with more career best form. No need to trade him, no need to protect the compensation.
(B) What if Howe Pendlebury and Moore stay injury free, meaning only the elite 19 year olds are needed (Henry Daicos etc) and the rest are free to develop at their own pace in the VFL
(C) one recruited big name player isn’t going to stifle player development. And in fact to that point it’s arguably better if he’s seven years older than the next generation rather than three years older or even the same age!!!

 

[RobJD]

If we can get a cohesive midfield who doesn't turn it over like a cement mixer on crack, the back six (and probably the forwards) will do their job soundly most weeks.

I reckon the biggest problem our midfield has is connection - especially between Grundy and the on-ballers

 

[HFF]

I reckon the biggest problem our midfield has is connection - especially between Grundy and the on-ballers

Alot of that is how Grundy has been coached in terms of what to do by the previous regime.The last few years he has been instructed in my eyes to just tap in close and around the congestion to play a high number of stoppages.
We need him to be able to hit beyond the congestion, to players on the move and not just at the feet.
This is something i am hopeful the new regime identify/