List Mgmt. Collingwood Trade and FA

[Do_Beta_Rapport]

You are the eternal glass half full guy, Spinny, which is admirable even if not realistic.

Mihochek is becoming prone to hamstring injuries, just like Nathan Buckley’s career ended. He’ll play next year but will be doubtful, unreliable or ineffective beyond that. The end comes fast once hammy/calf injuries become chronic. I expect Elliott to retire at the end of this season or next.

The club can’t replace six or seven guys at once, so actually needs 2-3 to go over each of the next three off-seasons.


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He’s currently out with a torn pec from a running back with the flight and getting his arm hooked.

 

[Do_Beta_Rapport]

Liam McMahon kicking a bag in the VFL today for Carlton with 7 goals

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

Liam McMahon kicking a bag in the VFL today for Carlton with 7 goals

Noodle arms.

 

[LuckyLee]

He’s currently out with a torn pec from a running back with the flight and getting his arm hooked.

Yes - a freakishly unlucky injury - but he also did a calf in pre-season and was out twice during the season with hammy tears.


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[stormskye]

Liam McMahon kicking a bag in the VFL today for Carlton with 7 goals

Sam weideman, Josh Schache have all kicked bags in the vfl.

Reef kicked a bag of 6 last year.

 

[LuckyLee]

Injuries aside we are not losing Elliot, Mihoceck, Crisp, WHE, Mitchell - who’ll still be younger than Sidey is now.

How can you say “injuries aside”? Elliott, Checkers and Mitchell have already shown themselves to be very injury-prone. Recurring/chronic injuries will probably end all of their careers in the near-term, especially given their ages.


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[No SPIN]

You are the eternal glass half full guy, Spinny, which is admirable even if not realistic.

Mihochek is becoming prone to hamstring injuries, just like Nathan Buckley’s career ended. He’ll play next year but will be doubtful, unreliable or ineffective beyond that. The end comes fast once hammy/calf injuries become chronic. I expect Elliott to retire at the end of this season or next.

The club can’t replace six or seven guys at once, so actually needs 2-3 to go over each of the next three off-seasons.


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So you agree that 3 of your 5 predictions were premature.

Brodie has been very durable and doesn’t have a prolonged history of hamstring issues, unlike Cerra for example.
I do however worry about his pectoral muscle injury and his chances of a full recovery.
Elliot - unless there’s a recurrence of his vascular injury then I expect he’ll still be playing, because there’s no signs at present that the game has gone passed him.
As to my optimism- I call it realism per my comments on Long, of whom you were a harsh critic during the week.
He had a much improved game and looks set for more upside.

 

[larrikan]

As with any corporate setting Derek Hines tenure has reached a point of no return. He has arguably applied his job well but 10 years without a clear future vision for the club is stale. The 23 - 28 year old bracket is not elite by competition standards.

We need a fresh look at our recruiting strategy. New sets of eyes. Someone who will ruthlessly bring talent into the club.

And we need to be not bent over at the trade table. No more future pick to entice players to come.

I am tired of the Collingwood tax of paying overs for a recruit and getting unders for players leaving. It’s happened for years.

We also need to recruit strong for our VFL program. We need a winning culture and development model.

I am not criticising Hyne, Fraser or Wright but it’s time for change and get the very best available before Tassie derails us.

Brown says we will not bottom out. Let’s see the plan.


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[No SPIN]

How can you say “injuries aside”? Elliott, Checkers and Mitchell have already shown themselves to be very injury-prone. Recurring/chronic injuries will probably end all of their careers in the near-term, especially given their ages.


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So you agree only injuries will see your pessimism eventuate.

 

[Do_Beta_Rapport]

Wasn’t there talk of us looking at Max Gruzewski? Looking solid today on a decent stage.

​

 

[No SPIN]

As with any corporate setting Derek Hines tenure has reached a point of no return. He has arguably applied his job well but 10 years without a clear future vision for the club is stale. The 23 - 28 year old bracket is not elite by competition standards.

We need a fresh look at our recruiting strategy. New sets of eyes. Someone who will ruthlessly bring talent into the club.

And we need to be not bent over at the trade table. No more future pick to entice players to come.

I am tired of the Collingwood tax of paying overs for a recruit and getting unders for players leaving. It’s happened for years.

We also need to recruit strong for our VFL program. We need a winning culture and development model.

I am not criticising Hyne, Fraser or Wright but it’s time for change and get the very best available before Tassie derails us.

Brown says we will not bottom out. Let’s see the plan.


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This debate on Hine has been done to death.
Even to point where his critics were challenged to offer 5 recruiters with better results (finals, PF, GF and flags) and they came up with none.
When it comes to the metrics that count he’s still over achieving.
And this idea that youth and the draft is the answer is just naive. Carlton have been rewarding their 1st rounders with wooden spoons for 20 years.

If you want change for change sake then fine - but suggesting Hine’s performance is cause for replacement is disingenuous based on his results.

 

[LuckyLee]

So you agree that 3 of your 5 predictions were premature.

Brodie has been very durable and doesn’t have a prolonged history of hamstring issue, unlike Cerra for example.
I do however worry about his pectoral muscle injury and his chances of a full recovery.
Elliot - unless there’s a recurrence of his vascular injury then I expect he’ll still be playing, because there’s no signs at present that the game has gone passed him.
As to my optimism- I call it realism per my comments on Long, of whom you were a harsh critic during the week.
He had a much improved game and looks set for more upside.

If you re-read my post, I said most/all of those players would be gone by 2026 or 2027. I stand by that.

Hoping that so many aging stars will be able to play near their best well into their 30’s is madness and setting the club up for a disastrous period in the wilderness if we keep too many for too long. Their retirements need to be planned for, managed and, in some cases, encouraged.

Look what Hawthorn has done. They actively dismantled their Premiership dynasty side by trading away Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Gunston, etc for next to nothing which looked crazy at the time but they now have one of the most exciting young teams in the comp.

[And no, I didn’t criticise Ned Long at all during the week. You must have me confused with someone else. I did express great disappointment in Lipinski and called for hm to be dropped, which was vindicated by another very poor performance last night.]


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[No SPIN]

If you re-read my post, I said most/all of those players would be gone by 2026 or 2027. I stand by that.

Hoping that so many aging stars will be able to play near their best well into their 30’s is madness and setting the club up for a disastrous period in the wilderness if we keep too many for too long. Their retirements need to be planned for, managed and, in some cases, encouraged.

Look what Hawthorn has done. They actively dismantled their Premiership dynasty side by trading away Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Gunston, etc for next to nothing which looked crazy at the time but they now have one of the most exciting young teams in the comp.

[And no, I didn’t criticise Ned Long at all during the week. You must have me confused with someone else. I did express great disappointment in Lipinski and called for hm to be dropped, which was vindicated by another very poor performance last night.]


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No - Hawks have been bottom dwellers for 4 years gathering talent.
Dumping their older players was not the recipe for success.

In reality being perennial losers for 4 years was the formula for their rebuild.

 

[larrikan]

This debate on Hime has been done to death.
Even to point were his critics were challenged to offer 5 recruiters with better results (finals, PF, GF and flags) and they came up with none.
When it comes to the metrics that count he’s still over achieving.
And this idea that youth and the draft is the answer is just naive. Carlton have been rewarding their 1st rounders with wooden spoons for 20 years.

If you want change for change sake then fine - but suggesting Hine’s performance is cause for replacement is disingenuous based on his results.

Im not saying that in results. Happy with the results but is he the very best available for where we are now. If the answer is yes then he stays. However every corporation turns over long term staff for new ideas. Im not one of the Hine sucks brigade. Im suggesting with the three tiered approach to recruiting 18-22, 23-28 and 29+ that he uses, we appear to be lacking in one age group. Maybe thats just the way I see it but the 29+ group are not being forced out of the team.

Im no expert. It’s just my thoughts based on watching the team. I want to be proven wrong. Haha.


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[No SPIN]

If you re-read my post, I said most/all of those players would be gone by 2026 or 2027. I stand by that.

Hoping that so many aging stars will be able to play near their best well into their 30’s is madness and setting the club up for a disastrous period in the wilderness if we keep too many for too long. Their retirements need to be planned for, managed and, in some cases, encouraged.

Look what Hawthorn has done. They actively dismantled their Premiership dynasty side by trading away Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Gunston, etc for next to nothing which looked crazy at the time but they now have one of the most exciting young teams in the comp.

[And no, I didn’t criticise Ned Long at all during the week. You must have me confused with someone else. I did express great disappointment in Lipinski and called for hm to be dropped, which was vindicated by another very poor performance last night.]


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Yes I was wrong about Long - it was another poster. I apologise.

 

[No SPIN]

Im not saying that in results. Happy with the results but is he the very best available for where we are now. If the answer is yes then he stays. However every corporation turns over long term staff for new ideas. Im not one of the Hine sucks brigade. Im suggesting with the three tiered approach to recruiting 18-22, 23-28 and 29+ that he uses, we appear to be lacking in one age group. Maybe thats just the way I see it but the 29+ group are not being forced out of the team.

Im no expert. It’s just my thoughts based on watching the team. I want to be proven wrong. Haha.


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Age brackets are blunt instruments- list management is about quality.
We’ve had a history of successfully picking mature age players.
A poster yesterday was lamenting that we’ll have 13 players 29 or over in 2025. A Club considered an up and coming flag threat, with potential for a dynasty has 18 in that bracket.

That Club is …………Carlton

 

[LuckyLee]

No - Hawks have been bottom dwellers for 4 years gathering talent.
Dumping their older players was not the recipe for success.

In reality being perennial losers for 4 years was the formula for their rebuild.

Hawthorn’s actions created more list spaces and AFL-level opportunities to accelerate the development of youngsters who are now blossoming. We should follow the same approach before too many of our old brigade become list-cloggers.


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[LuckyLee]

Yes I was wrong about Long - it was another poster. I apologise.

All good.


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[No SPIN]

Hawthorn’s actions created more list spaces and AFL-level opportunities to accelerate the development of youngsters who are now blossoming. We should follow the same approach before too many of our old brigade become list-cloggers.


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There’s enough maturity between players and Club to ensure we don’t have list cloggers.

 

[Everybody Panic]

We've had some seriously poor drafting over the 4 or so years whilst our trading has been elite. Of our crop of 1st and second round picks only Nick, Beau (3rd round?) and Henry have really looks like long term afl players. I don't think you need Carlton's horde of top 5 picks to compete, but you definitely need a much better hit rate with you 10-30 pick than we have had. I have some hope left for Ed Allen but if he doesn't come on next year that's another miss. I will put the disclaimer that I think Macrae and Reef were never given the time to really establish themselves in the team they deserved.

 

[LuckyLee]

As with any corporate setting Derek Hines tenure has reached a point of no return. He has arguably applied his job well but 10 years without a clear future vision for the club is stale. The 23 - 28 year old bracket is not elite by competition standards.

We need a fresh look at our recruiting strategy. New sets of eyes. Someone who will ruthlessly bring talent into the club.

And we need to be not bent over at the trade table. No more future pick to entice players to come.

I am tired of the Collingwood tax of paying overs for a recruit and getting unders for players leaving. It’s happened for years.

We also need to recruit strong for our VFL program. We need a winning culture and development model.

I am not criticising Hyne, Fraser or Wright but it’s time for change and get the very best available before Tassie derails us.

Brown says we will not bottom out. Let’s see the plan.


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Great post. Especially the “Collingwood tax” comment. Agree with you on all points.


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[ThePheonix]

This debate on Hine has been done to death.
Even to point were his critics were challenged to offer 5 recruiters with better results (finals, PF, GF and flags) and they came up with none.
When it comes to the metrics that count he’s still over achieving.
And this idea that youth and the draft is the answer is just naive. Carlton have been rewarding their 1st rounders with wooden spoons for 20 years.

If you want change for change sake then fine - but suggesting Hine’s performance is cause for replacement is disingenuous based on his results.

I see you like to wear Hine coloured glasses. Over achieved, what a joke!

 

[No SPIN]

I see you like to wear Hine coloured glasses. Over achieved, what a joke!

If his results are so poor - then please make your case of which 5 recruiters have done better and are more suitable replacements.
I think you’ll find the joke is on you.

 

[HoraceStrasbork]

Ball butcher and mental health issues - no thanks.

Apart from that he is OK. Oh, he is also a house wrecker and needs a minder

 

[Bussie]

The players we've drafted have not come on. The trades we've made haven't been the smartest decisions, but all of that has happened so we need to deal with it and look forwards.
I think we gave up way too much for Schutlz, but I also think it wasn't his decision and I'm not going to slag him off. We've traded out Grundy and Treloar to clear some cash, but still paying some of their contract, Ginnivan was a loose cannon, I like him as a footballer but he seems like he's not a club player, so I'll trust the club, in the same way I trusted the club to trade and draft I guess.

I'm prepared for the next few years to be languishing on the bottom. Loads of gaps in all spots, relying on too many that are over 30 and some players who are too young but needing to be on every week. I think we need 2025 as a buffer and to blood the younger brigade or those mature but inexperienced players, ala Dean, Long, Sullivan, Steene, Richards and McInnes, providing both of those last two stay. You don't get on an AFL list by chance, all of these players have shown something, they just need to show it at the top level. Kyle Martin

Kyle Martin

Age

33

Ht

178cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.2

3star

K

6.3

2star

HB

6.8

4star

M

3.7

4star

T

3.0

5star

CL

1.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

15.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

8.2

5star

M

4.4

4star

T

3.6

5star

CL

1.8

4star

syndrome.
I'd be keep Kruegs but on a year contract.

I dare say Markov might be unlucky come delisitng time. Johnson, Begg as well. With two retirements so far, Carry and Murph, that's 5 changes. The club may go harder or trade out some players for picks, but I can't see teams knocking our door down for anyone on the outer in particular. Maybe Reef.
I could just be pessemistic, but I'm preparing myself.