List Mgmt. Contract, Trade & Draftee Discussion, 2023: Picks 1,20,34,39,53 ,58

[Keys]

Link to contract status of all players

The Contracts Thread

2024 List Changes : Out: Retired- Gaff Delisted - Jones, Trew(R), Baker(R), Witherden, Burgiel, Culley(R), Rotham, L Edwards Traded - Darling (NM) Barrass (Hawthorn) In: Trade/FA acquisitions - Graham (Richmond) Baker (Richmond) Owies (Carlton) Draft - Allan (Pick 16) Shanahan (Pick 30) Gross...

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Resource - 2023 AFL Draft Order

Every trade as it happens!

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[CoastersFlag No.5]

Generally I would agree with a sentiment that we make a call on young players too early but then you go and use O’Neill, Foley and Trew as your examples…….

I think those guys on 40 games it's time to show you can do it or go do something else with your life unfortunately.

 

[Obeanie1]

I don’t think anyone is obsessed with quantity over quality. I think most in here rated Sheezel and Warlaw higher than Ginbey.

We also know they didn’t want to leave Melbourne so it would have been a great result for the club in 12 months time when still sitting bottom 5 and George nominates Essendon his club of choice for his next contract. The club he grew up supporting and made no secret of hoping he would slide to in the draft.

You have been banging on about this now since trade week Terry and you still fail to take into consideration the fact that they didn’t want to join the club. Time to move on.

First couple of games of Wardlaw.

Can see the power in his core, decent skills, good intent. But off the pace and looked slow at times. Which is not unexpected for players early on, speed however is not one of Wardlaw's strengths.

 

[Lia]

What’s everyone’s thoughts on picking up Paddy Dow at the end of the year cheap.

Maybe, if it came very cheap. Probably would be better depth than XON, Clark, West among others.

 

[briztoon]

Maybe, if it came very cheap. Probably would be better depth than XON, Clark, West among others.

He's probably a delisted free agent at the end of the year.

 

[twce13]

Some serious underrating of Ginbey on this board.

Yes he’s not having a Sheezle or Daicos-like debut season, but he’s doing better than the vast majority of first year debutants, especially considering he’s playing in a demanding inside role as part of a crap midfield with only Kelly, of note, to support him.

Ginbey is currently averaging 14 disposals, 7 tackles and 3 clearances a game.

I’m very pleased with his progress so far, all things considered.

Yeah but Terry used his time machine and has informed us that ginbey is not a top 5 player in the draft... it's pretty clear we need to sack everyone.

 

[swingdog]

Because this season is such a dumpster fire, I listened yesterday to the Real Footy podcast after the 2018 grand final.

Interesting to hear discussion on future prospects for both teams. Thought Collingwood would have another crack within 4 years, which was close. Also strongly thought we should trade Gaff and load up on youth.

Hindsight eh?

 

[Keys]

Because this season is such a dumpster fire, I listened yesterday to the Real Footy podcast after the 2018 grand final.

Interesting to hear discussion on future prospects for both teams. Thought Collingwood would have another crack within 4 years, which was close. Also strongly thought we should trade Gaff and load up on youth.

Hindsight eh?

Did they mention that as a FA all Gaff would have secured for us was pick 19 as compensation

Or did that little bit of reality pass them by

 

[dinnaz]

Did they mention that as a FA all Gaff would have secured for us was pick 19 as compensation

Or did that little bit of reality pass them by

FA = F*ck All

 

[wceratta]

Did they mention that as a FA all Gaff would have secured for us was pick 19 as compensation

Or did that little bit of reality pass them by

Would of been a extra 900k or so in the salary cap to spend each year he wasn’t here aswell


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[Kegs15]

Some serious underrating of Ginbey on this board.

Yes he’s not having a Sheezle or Daicos-like debut season, but he’s doing better than the vast majority of first year debutants, especially considering he’s playing in a demanding inside role as part of a crap midfield with only Kelly, of note, to support him.

Ginbey is currently averaging 14 disposals, 7 tackles and 3 clearances a game.

I’m very pleased with his progress so far, all things considered.

Am extraordinarily happy with Ginbey.

Was my first game live in a while last weekend - whilst he looked gassed (he's shouldering a 26 year old's battering) one thing I noticed which I reckon is always underrated is that he's happy to do the simple stuff, and do it well.

Hands in tight particularly impressive - he's not doing that overawed young player thing where he spins 6 times looking for an amazing handball release - he draws the tackler, gets the arms up, releases to the best option and does it cleanly. Similarly with kicking, yeah he's not a laser boot but he's got distance and he's quick to make the decision whether to hit the boring pass (not meaning Gaff sideways, just the first good offensive option) or decide to gain 60m.

That to me was my big worry and it's been put to rest - I think if he was just an athlete and not a footballer he wouldn't be that composed. Makes the correct footy decisions. Once he learns midfield craft a bit more that production will start to come up.

Everyone bangs on about Clayton Oliver's disposal but he's built a great game for himself just doing what he can and making the right decision within those limits, again and again. It's unbelievably rare to get a player in any draft with any pick who has zero deficiencies to their game. Less than one per draft I reckon - Daicos, Bont, Judd etc, Ashcroft an early call.

Even a Petracca who is now a pretty complete footballer had a bog average first few seasons so you could say the deficiency was maturity? Early work ethic? Deficiencies come in a lot of different forms, they're not just kicking prowess or speed or size etc. Injury factor is another (Wardlaw, Chesser, maybe they come good, maybe they don't). Petracca has fixed his early deficiencies - Rayner came in with a similar profile and no guarantees he'll do the same.

You take players like Ginbey any day - and from what we've seen we can back him in to give the best crack possible at working on every aspect of his game, if we don't break him first. Getting Hewitt as well a massive bonus, it's exciting to have young mids who have several outstanding attributes as opposed to being B in everything.

Really happy with our draft last year so far, anyone not taking Ginbey as a massive positive out of our year has well and truly had their spirits crushed

 

[Dylan82]

I understand people claim that he is overhyped due to how mature his build his for his age. Indeed, he is a man-child and ragdolls smaller bodies that are not as grown up. But what sets him apart for me is his stoppage craft - it is off the chart good - arguably better than any player that I have seen in that age group. His ability to instinctively read the layout of a stoppage, and then get into position to receive the resulting tap (as much from the opposing ruck) whilst moving at pace towards outlet channels and maintaining separation from his opposing marker is phenomenal. Go watch the footage, he gets on the move before the rucks leave the ground - it's almost telepathic.

I've been trying to get a read on this, but find it difficult since he seems to never actually consistently play midfield. If anything, to me, he seems a touch laconic around stoppages, especially when it comes to repeat efforts, and looks much comfortable floating around in space as a sort of utility. Midfield-wise, I've started to project him as a Yeo type, ie in career trajectory and quality.

I mean this to express agnosticism rather than pessimism -- but for a potential mid, it doesn't concern you that he rarely gets more than low-20s disposals? Is his stoppage craft really better than Rowell, Oliver, etc, at same age?

Dylan82 bump

Haven't forgotten about this, just been working.

Agree, he [Reid] does appear quite laconic at times, which I suspect (presume) is as much a case of arrogance and disdain towards those trying to mark him and that he is always surveying where the space is going to open up. There is a degree of FIGJAM there, but when you have so much talent it becomes beneficial to have a bit of swagger anyway.

Not too concerned about his disposal numbers as he has spent a lot of time up forward and down back during matches which skews them down. When given priority as a midfielder he accumulates fine - in the recent Academy vs Port SANFL match he had 21 disposals, 6 marks, 7 clearances and a goal from three-quarters of play.

For comparison, Oliver averaged 24 disposals in his draft year of 2015.

Another factor (albeit to a lesser degree) for Reid's lower disposal count is the case of every time he goes onball now against his age group he is being heavily tagged as well.


Rowell and Oliver are see-ball, get-ball specialists. They hunt at stoppage, bulldozing their way through opponents to take possession in tight and quickly offload to team-mates. Stoppage to stoppage, that is what they do - and they do it exceptionally well. Make contact, outbody, take ball, quick hands.

What makes Reid so impressive is that he rarely seems to need to react to where the ball is going - because he so often has already got into the right position before it arrives, taking possession on the move and then is off to the races.

It matters little right now, as he remains far from the finished article and still has a lot to work upon, notably improving his tank.

Rowell in particular, was far more advanced as a stoppage player overall in his draft year of 2019 than what Reid is today. Reid on draft day will comparatively be arriving on a lower foundation, but with a much, much higher development ceiling.

As he builds and the pieces come together, that instinctive stoppage reading will translate into the extra split-second of time to take possession or an additional step of separation to avoid being tackled in key moments of big matches.


Depending on how rapidly his endurance can improve, the expected development curve of Reid will fall in one of three ways:

1. Petracca - delayed impact both forward and midfield; improvements in conditioning lead to a breakout after an underwhelming start.
2. D.Martin - instant impact up forward, but midfield impact delayed until condition improves.
3. Judd - instant impact both forward and into the midfield when placed there.

Now that is not at all to say he will be the equal of the players listed above by any means - they are just listed as parables of how he could be expected to develop over multiple seasons.


Ether way, he has all the tools to become a very, very good player regardless.

 

[bzparkes]

Am extraordinarily happy with Ginbey.

Was my first game live in a while last weekend - whilst he looked gassed (he's shouldering a 26 year old's battering) one thing I noticed which I reckon is always underrated is that he's happy to do the simple stuff, and do it well.

Hands in tight particularly impressive - he's not doing that overawed young player thing where he spins 6 times looking for an amazing handball release - he draws the tackler, gets the arms up, releases to the best option and does it cleanly. Similarly with kicking, yeah he's not a laser boot but he's got distance and he's quick to make the decision whether to hit the boring pass (not meaning Gaff sideways, just the first good offensive option) or decide to gain 60m.

That to me was my big worry and it's been put to rest - I think if he was just an athlete and not a footballer he wouldn't be that composed. Makes the correct footy decisions. Once he learns midfield craft a bit more that production will start to come up.

Everyone bangs on about Clayton Oliver's disposal but he's built a great game for himself just doing what he can and making the right decision within those limits, again and again. It's unbelievably rare to get a player in any draft with any pick who has zero deficiencies to their game. Less than one per draft I reckon - Daicos, Bont, Judd etc, Ashcroft an early call.

Even a Petracca who is now a pretty complete footballer had a bog average first few seasons so you could say the deficiency was maturity? Early work ethic? Deficiencies come in a lot of different forms, they're not just kicking prowess or speed or size etc. Injury factor is another (Wardlaw, Chesser, maybe they come good, maybe they don't). Petracca has fixed his early deficiencies - Rayner came in with a similar profile and no guarantees he'll do the same.

You take players like Ginbey any day - and from what we've seen we can back him in to give the best crack possible at working on every aspect of his game, if we don't break him first. Getting Hewitt as well a massive bonus, it's exciting to have young mids who have several outstanding attributes as opposed to being B in everything.

Really happy with our draft last year so far, anyone not taking Ginbey as a massive positive out of our year has well and truly had their spirits crushed

Ginbey's knocked out some sweet handballs from congestion, I've noticed. His awareness is acutally extremely good.

I'm with you that not playing a chipscab role will do him wonders longterms, even if others look way better for now. Not taking anything away from those blokes either, it's just that WCE definitely need a Ginbey for the future.

 

[joeyavalanche]

If by the end of the season these things happen, I’ll be happy

• Chesser - Gets some confidence and consistency even if it’s in the WAFL and a few AFL games later in the season and shows some signs.

• Burgiel - Earn a spot and get 3-5 games in

• Barnett - Build some consistent WAFL form to show enough to push for selection. If he has gained the confidence of the club to give him a taste, that’s a tick

• Maric - Play 3-5 games and show we have something to work with

• Long - Hold his place in the team

• A few green shots from at least one of the guys on the delistable pile to warrant keeping them. XON, Clark, Trew, Foley etc. I had Petch in that pile but he seems to be playing with some more maturity the last 3-4 weeks.

• Yeo and Gov come back and stay fit

• Farewell games for Nic, Shuey, Bunga and Gaff


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[Kegs15]

Haven't forgotten about this, just been working.

Agree, he [Reid] does appear quite laconic at times, which I suspect (presume) is as much a case of arrogance and disdain towards those trying to mark him and that he is always surveying where the space is going to open up. There is a degree of FIGJAM there, but when you have so much talent it becomes beneficial to have a bit of swagger anyway.

Not too concerned about his disposal numbers as he has spent a lot of time up forward and down back during matches which skews them down. When given priority as a midfielder he accumulates fine - in the recent Academy vs Port SANFL match he had 21 disposals, 6 marks, 7 clearances and a goal from three-quarters of play.

For comparison, Oliver averaged 24 disposals in his draft year of 2015.

Another factor (albeit to a lesser degree) for Reid's lower disposal count is the case of every time he goes onball now against his age group he is being heavily tagged as well.


Rowell and Oliver are see-ball, get-ball specialists. They hunt at stoppage, bulldozing their way through opponents to take possession in tight and quickly offload to team-mates. Stoppage to stoppage, that is what they do - and they do it exceptionally well. Make contact, outbody, take ball, quick hands.

What makes Reid so impressive is that he rarely seems to need to react to where the ball is going - because he so often has already got into the right position before it arrives, taking possession on the move and then is off to the races.

It matters little right now, as he remains far from the finished article and still has a lot to work upon, notably improving his tank.

Rowell in particular, was far more advanced as a stoppage player overall in his draft year of 2019 than what Reid is today. Reid on draft day will comparatively be arriving on a lower foundation, but with a much, much higher development ceiling.

As he builds and the pieces come together, that instinctive stoppage reading will translate into the extra split-second of time to take possession or an additional step of separation to avoid being tackled in key moments of big matches.


Depending on how rapidly his endurance can improve, the expected development curve of Reid will fall in one of three ways:

1. Petracca - delayed impact both forward and midfield; improvements in conditioning lead to a breakout after an underwhelming start.
2. D.Martin - instant impact up forward, but midfield impact delayed until condition improves.
3. Judd - instant impact both forward and into the midfield when placed there.

Now that is not at all to say he will be the equal of the players listed above by any means - they are just listed as parables of how he could be expected to develop over multiple seasons.


Ether way, he has all the tools to become a very, very good player regardless.

Very very pleased to hear you assess him like this. Am totally happy to have a bit of a campaigner. That type of stoppage craft is so so rare and so footy pure to watch.

Premiership aside we're crying out for some fun and some life, both as supporters and within the team. Having a player who at least has the potential to be the best player in the game.

The last player we drafted like that was Nic Nat - sure didn't win a flag with us and injury wise probably didn't have the career he might have but by god he's brought out some emotion and made it fun to support West Coast. Let's get someone in like that. Fire us all up, get us to walk taller etc.

Even for this board's sake - I'm just picturing the overexcited positivity threads if we do take him and the overly negative opposite if we don't. Will be good for the team obviously if bigfooty is in a happy place

 

[Kapowie1]

Very very pleased to hear you assess him like this. Am totally happy to have a bit of a campaigner. That type of stoppage craft is so so rare and so footy pure to watch.

Premiership aside we're crying out for some fun and some life, both as supporters and within the team. Having a player who at least has the potential to be the best player in the game.

The last player we drafted like that was Nic Nat - sure didn't win a flag with us and injury wise probably didn't have the career he might have but by god he's brought out some emotion and made it fun to support West Coast. Let's get someone in like that. Fire us all up, get us to walk taller etc.

Even for this board's sake - I'm just picturing the overexcited positivity threads if we do take him and the overly negative opposite if we don't. Will be good for the team obviously if bigfooty is in a happy place

This 100%.
I want to get excited again.
Reid plus Hewett, Ginbey, Long and Culley getting the ball down to Oscar for a Coleman year!!!

That would be something great.



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[Woutizmoo]

But Fagan just doesn't drop his best 22 players, unless he's forced to. His view is, if you are best 22 and out of form, what's the point of sending you back to the reserves, may as well find your form in the seniors.

Hopefully 'Credits in the bank' works better for you guys than it did for us

 

[Godfather32]

Yes.

Just have to read our next game thread v Hawks to see every second person calling for his inclusion.

But Fagan just doesn't drop his best 22 players, unless he's forced to. His view is, if you are best 22 and out of form, what's the point of sending you back to the reserves, may as well find your form in the seniors.

Last year, it was clear after the bye that Lyons was carrying an injury (turned out he had osteo pubis) but Fagan refused to drop him, even when he couldn't run or kick 30m, until we got to the finals, where Fagan finally dropped Lyons for Dev.

This season, Berry has been horribly out of form since after the Melbourne game, but won't get dropped.

Sounds like a great way to demotivate the guys playing in the reserves who know they're not going to get a shot even if they're playing better than a guy in the best 22....looking forward to getting Dev for pick 88

 

[AsterixTheGaul]

Yes.

Just have to read our next game thread v Hawks to see every second person calling for his inclusion.

But Fagan just doesn't drop his best 22 players, unless he's forced to. His view is, if you are best 22 and out of form, what's the point of sending you back to the reserves, may as well find your form in the seniors.

Last year, it was clear after the bye that Lyons was carrying an injury (turned out he had osteo pubis) but Fagan refused to drop him, even when he couldn't run or kick 30m, until we got to the finals, where Fagan finally dropped Lyons for Dev.

This season, Berry has been horribly out of form since after the Melbourne game, but won't get dropped.

To quote a recent interview, Fagan said

“I am reviewing
The situation
Could this Deven be included in my side
……..”

I think he was written up by Lionel Bart

 

[Priddis Is Done]

Haven't forgotten about this, just been working.

Agree, he [Reid] does appear quite laconic at times, which I suspect (presume) is as much a case of arrogance and disdain towards those trying to mark him and that he is always surveying where the space is going to open up. There is a degree of FIGJAM there, but when you have so much talent it becomes beneficial to have a bit of swagger anyway.

Not too concerned about his disposal numbers as he has spent a lot of time up forward and down back during matches which skews them down. When given priority as a midfielder he accumulates fine - in the recent Academy vs Port SANFL match he had 21 disposals, 6 marks, 7 clearances and a goal from three-quarters of play.

For comparison, Oliver averaged 24 disposals in his draft year of 2015.

Another factor (albeit to a lesser degree) for Reid's lower disposal count is the case of every time he goes onball now against his age group he is being heavily tagged as well.


Rowell and Oliver are see-ball, get-ball specialists. They hunt at stoppage, bulldozing their way through opponents to take possession in tight and quickly offload to team-mates. Stoppage to stoppage, that is what they do - and they do it exceptionally well. Make contact, outbody, take ball, quick hands.

What makes Reid so impressive is that he rarely seems to need to react to where the ball is going - because he so often has already got into the right position before it arrives, taking possession on the move and then is off to the races.

It matters little right now, as he remains far from the finished article and still has a lot to work upon, notably improving his tank.

Rowell in particular, was far more advanced as a stoppage player overall in his draft year of 2019 than what Reid is today. Reid on draft day will comparatively be arriving on a lower foundation, but with a much, much higher development ceiling.

As he builds and the pieces come together, that instinctive stoppage reading will translate into the extra split-second of time to take possession or an additional step of separation to avoid being tackled in key moments of big matches.


Depending on how rapidly his endurance can improve, the expected development curve of Reid will fall in one of three ways:

1. Petracca - delayed impact both forward and midfield; improvements in conditioning lead to a breakout after an underwhelming start.
2. D.Martin - instant impact up forward, but midfield impact delayed until condition improves.
3. Judd - instant impact both forward and into the midfield when placed there.

Now that is not at all to say he will be the equal of the players listed above by any means - they are just listed as parables of how he could be expected to develop over multiple seasons.


Ether way, he has all the tools to become a very, very good player regardless.

You had me at hello.

You've completely sold me.

Off to WCE he goes

 

[Wormkilla]

I don’t think anyone is obsessed with quantity over quality. I think most in here rated Sheezel and Warlaw higher than Ginbey.

We also know they didn’t want to leave Melbourne so

Maha..

 

[bzparkes]

Maha..

View attachment 1703212

Stop posting this, considering it was well known in recruiting circles that he was a massive flight risk for interstate sides.

 

[SumaGodCoach]

Maha..

View attachment 1703212

You do realise that what you just posted confirms the premise that Sheezel didn't want to leave Melbourne, rather than refutes it. As soon as someone says publicly that "I probably would prefer to stay here in Melbourne" non Vic clubs are going to put a line through his name.

 

[CountryLad]

Just ignore him it’s troll account comes in here every month and stirs the pot about Sheezle.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Maha..

View attachment 1703212

And who would North have taken at pick 1?

 

[FKASC]

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