List Mgmt. Contract, Trade & Draftee Discussion, 2023: Picks 1,20,34,39,53 ,58

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Deplorable trumpster said:
If the average AFL wage is now 450k then that means that roughly 20 the of the roughly 40 man squad is on more than than that and other 20 is on less, and if Waterman is now considered a best 22 player at the club and will be for a quite a while (as he seems to be by the club's brains trust), then by simple logic you would think he would need to getting more than the 450k. Add in to that that he is 25 years old and has had 80 games and 7 years of development invested into him (and is thus coming in to his prime) and also add in that he is a KPP and they are always valued slightly more than non - KPP players by the market due to the extra development time and the fact that midfielders/flankers are obviously more common and thus easier to acquire/trade for than KPP's. And since this is likely to be the biggest contract of his career i am sure his manager is telling it is time to maximise his career earnings and not take an offer that is significantly smaller than the highest bid. And as a comparison lets remember that Port are paying Rioli 600k and he is a much more easily replaced player type than Waterman, has mental problems and drug issues, is fat and slow and likely to get slower.

Put all that together and 600k a year doesn't sound off the spectrum. I am sure there are other clubs who would offer him 600k. 600k for 3 years probably seems like a deal we should be happy with if we could get him to agree. Whats the alternative? Let him go and get low balled like we did with Rioli and end up with a pick upgrade from pick 40 to pick 30?
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Deplorable trumpster said:
Lets do some simple arithmetic and comparisons.

If the average AFL wage is now 450k then that means that roughly 20 the of the roughly 40 man squad is on more than than that and other 20 is on less, and if Waterman is now considered a best 22 player at the club and will be for a quite a while (as he seems to be by the club's brains trust), then by simple logic you would think he would need to getting more than the 450k. Add in to that that he is 25 years old and has had 80 games and 7 years of development invested into him (and is thus coming in to his prime) and also add in that he is a KPP and they are always valued slightly more than non - KPP players by the market due to the extra development time and the fact that midfielders/flankers are obviously more common and thus easier to acquire/trade for than KPP's. And since this is likely to be the biggest contract of his career i am sure his manager is telling it is time to maximise his career earnings and not take an offer that is significantly smaller than the highest bid. And as a comparison lets remember that Port are paying Rioli 600k and he is a much more easily replaced player type than Waterman, has mental problems and drug issues, is fat and slow and likely to get slower.

Put all that together and 600k a year doesn't sound off the spectrum. I am sure there are other clubs who would offer him 600k. 600k for 3 years probably seems like a deal we should be happy with if we could get him to agree. Whats the alternative? Let him go and get low balled like we did with Rioli and end up with a pick upgrade from pick 40 to pick 30?
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Group wages, like house prices, are one of those things where the median figure is much more meaningful than the average figure.

Yes I'm exaggerating here but it is for illustrative purposes.
Take a company for example where the supervisor gets paid $1million and the 10 employees are each paid $100K. The average salary is just under $200k but the median salary is $100K, much more representative and useful.

Like this example, AFL salaries are averagely inflated by the few top earners. We have Gov, Gaff and a couple of others on 2 to 2.5 the average. To offset just those two we need to have 2 guys paying to play, or more realistically, 10 guys on year 1 and 2 draftee pay.

We don't actually have a median wage number from the club so we can only speculate. Rest assured that it must be less than the average by a significant amount. I would guess somewhere between 300 and 350K. Pay Waterman a just above median pay as a bottom end of best 22 player and he'd be on around $350K.

I'm sure Suma understands the nuances of median and average and is just talking up his opinion here.
 
MrWoollie said:
Group wages, like house prices, are one of those things where the median figure is much more meaningful than the average figure.

Yes I'm exaggerating here but it is for illustrative purposes.
Take a company for example where the supervisor gets paid $1million and the 10 employees are each paid $100K. The average salary is just under $200k but the median salary is $100K, much more representative and useful.

Like this example, AFL salaries are averagely inflated by the few top earners. We have Gov, Gaff and a couple of others on 2 to 2.5 the average. To offset just those two we need to have 2 guys paying to play, or more realistically, 10 guys on year 1 and 2 draftee pay.

We don't actually have a median wage number from the club so we can only speculate. Rest assured that it must be less than the average by a significant amount. I would guess somewhere between 300 and 350K. Pay Waterman a just above median pay as a bottom end of best 22 player and he'd be on around $350K.

I'm sure Suma understands the nuances of median and average and is just talking up his opinion here.
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in rough numbers ithe average wage/salary is like $88k. Some are on $10m plus, plus. We get your point (All number fictitious and not checked.)
 

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Deplorable trumpster said:
Lets do some simple arithmetic and comparisons.

If the average AFL wage is now 450k then that means that roughly 20 the of the roughly 40 man squad is on more than than that and other 20 is on less, and if Waterman is now considered a best 22 player at the club and will be for a quite a while (as he seems to be by the club's brains trust), then by simple logic you would think he would need to getting more than the 450k. Add in to that that he is 25 years old and has had 80 games and 7 years of development invested into him (and is thus coming in to his prime) and also add in that he is a KPP and they are always valued slightly more than non - KPP players by the market due to the extra development time and the fact that midfielders/flankers are obviously more common and thus easier to acquire/trade for than KPP's. And since this is likely to be the biggest contract of his career i am sure his manager is telling it is time to maximise his career earnings and not take an offer that is significantly smaller than the highest bid. And as a comparison lets remember that Port are paying Rioli 600k and he is a much more easily replaced player type than Waterman, has mental problems and drug issues, is fat and slow and likely to get slower.

Put all that together and 600k a year doesn't sound off the spectrum. I am sure there are other clubs who would offer him 600k. 600k for 3 years probably seems like a deal we should be happy with if we could get him to agree. Whats the alternative? Let him go and get low balled like we did with Rioli and end up with a pick upgrade from pick 40 to pick 30?
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Others have already pointed out the numbers but I can't agree with the fact that Rioli is easier type to replace than Waterman.
 
I said this a few years ago but past and current players need to do what Josh Hill did, impregnate two girls at the same time.

This is the way forward, who says it's unethical? I think it's ethical because it gives WCE the best chance of one landing a boy with one of the pregnancies and also increases the genetically lottery chance by knocking up two different females.

Now i know a lot of the players have young kids, but i think they should have more, with another girl. Plenty of celebrities have open marriages in the states, i think this is our best chance of getting more F/S coming through.

Josh Hill, thank you for paving the way and setting up the blueprint.
 
Thoughts on trading for Jeremy Sharp?what would it take?I'd consider for a pick 50+ if he was interested.Although last year he wanted to join the purples from what I recall.
 
Goroyals22 said:
Sumich has finally gone full blown mental breakdown on sports fm this morning over Jake waterman of all people.

Somehow believes he is worth 600-700 somewhere else and because , and only because, he is the son of Chris waterman he should be on a four year deal… no mention of performance of anything just because he is a father son and if he isn’t signed Sumich won’t ever set foot in the club again( so theirs something positive)..

Also interesting about the past player group apparently having a say in how the footy club is run and now they are upset because the current people there don’t care for their opinions….

Will upload said interview when it’s put up.

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That is SO cringworthy, he's 100% lost the plot.
 
WCE_phil said:
Also wearing a cheap, piece of s*t Van Huesen shirt and his belt is too big, not leather and not tucked in. ***** with no sense of class or style. Needs to change to either an MJ bale (premium label) athletic cut (if you want Australian branded) or pto a Thomas Pink slim fit. Knowing his height and build there's no way he's bigger than a 39.

(so people know Thomas Pink whilst a very old brand is Louis Vuitton's premium mens business wear label)

For an off the rack shirt you won't find a better one. Mos
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eaglesnutcase said:
All he said wasn’t s**t! Waterman would be a very handy player in a good side!
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Yeh, though 6-700k for 4 years did raise my eyebrow.
The talk of Father/son had hints of boy's club attitude.
Think footy clubs have changed a little since back in Suma's heyday.
Certainly the boy's club attitude at WCE has caused a fair bit of debate on here re Nisbett, employees, hell even Fraser Mc
2 year contract for Jake at way less than those numbers IMHO.
Like him and seems like a great clubman. Suma went way too far.
Interesting he said he thought Jake has been stagnant & still could go next level with the right development
I'll leave that up to other more knowledgeable footyheads...don't see it personally
 
I can understand the need to improve the 12-25 best players whilst trying to build a great top dozen.Fisher is a better player than West or Clark so if we could drop one and upgrade for minimal cost why not. But I’d then have in my head that Fisher is an interim solution not the answer and in a couple of years he would be in my marginal list unless he improved out of sight!
 
MrWoollie said:
Group wages, like house prices, are one of those things where the median figure is much more meaningful than the average figure.

Yes I'm exaggerating here but it is for illustrative purposes.
Take a company for example where the supervisor gets paid $1million and the 10 employees are each paid $100K. The average salary is just under $200k but the median salary is $100K, much more representative and useful.

Like this example, AFL salaries are averagely inflated by the few top earners. We have Gov, Gaff and a couple of others on 2 to 2.5 the average. To offset just those two we need to have 2 guys paying to play, or more realistically, 10 guys on year 1 and 2 draftee pay.

We don't actually have a median wage number from the club so we can only speculate. Rest assured that it must be less than the average by a significant amount. I would guess somewhere between 300 and 350K. Pay Waterman a just above median pay as a bottom end of best 22 player and he'd be on around $350K.

I'm sure Suma understands the nuances of median and average and is just talking up his opinion here.
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Salaries may not be distributed according to a normal bell curve is the point you are making. But you are grossly overstating the skew. Rookies (Year 1 and 2 players) get $140k a year plus small match payments. But since most players drafted don't play many games in the first two years the pay for most of them would be not that far above the 140k. Maybe 160k - 170k as an average.

So if the average salary is 450k that means that for every Tim Kelly on 800k you need 1.2 players on rookie pay to balance it. And considering that between all of the drafts (National, Rookie, Mid Season etc) we would have 8 - 12 players at any one time Year 1 or 2 rookie contracts, plus players in their 3rd or 4th year who have not established themselves and therefore would still be on something close to rookie money (Such as Callum Jamieson, O'Neil, Luke Edwards). And there would be no more than 7 or 8 players on Tim Kelly or Andrew Gaff money at the club.

The bottom paid 12 - 15 players (Rookies and non - established 3rd or 4th year players still on rookie money) would very, very comfortably balance the pay of the highest paid 7 or 8 players. It would more than balance it. The other 50% of the squad, including players like Waterman, would not need to be taking a 150k/40% haircut from the average player salary to balance the books as you suggest. That 20 player middle section of the list, which excludes the bottom 15 players on rookie money and the top 7 or 8 on the big money, would be averaging what the AFL average is. Not 65% of the average as you claim.

The other thig you are not factoring in is the industry wide expectation of an imminent and very significant increase in the salary cap that players and managers would be factoring into their negotiations when negotiating a 3 - 5 year deal.

If a 27 year old Willie Rioli, with all his personal deficiencies and the fact that he is slow and chronically overweight in a game that is only getting faster and faster every year thus making him a risk of going down the same road as Gaff later in his career, got a 4 year deal on 600k a year at a premiership contending club then how much do you think a wooden spoon winning club would need to offer a 25 year old KPP player with no personal baggage and who is considered a best 22 player and has no chronic injuries in order to get him to sign?

Not that i am in the Waterman fan club. But if you think you are going to get a player in his position to resign for 300k a year you are way off the mark.
 
Mop said:
Realistically though there's no tangible way that's feasible unless the increasingly powerful AFLPA allows it - which doesn't suit interstate clubs.
Realistically who would be responsible for the relocation costs? Does it fall in the soft cap? The AFL has been very strong on their position of not raising it back to pre levels - where's this money going to come from>?

I doubt we're the beneficiaries at all. It isn't feasible to force players interstate. I get where you're coming from - for example being able to send Rioli to Norf who could've paid more than Port were. I just don't see it as being actually possible.
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Agree it is very unlikely. With the caveat that Dangerflog might try to negotiate it (knowing it will never impact his cosy life at Moggs Creek), and then tell everyone how great the deal is for players.

It would have to be trade without player permission, anywhere.

Relocation costs, probably outside any cap… with restrictions (I.e. WC can’t pay private school relocation fees for a players child to relocate from a public school). Or maybe a fixed rate depending on the departure and destination location (I.e. melb to melb $0, melb to Perth $25k).



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dkalphy said:
I said this a few years ago but past and current players need to do what Josh Hill did, impregnate two girls at the same time.

This is the way forward, who says it's unethical? I think it's ethical because it gives WCE the best chance of one landing a boy with one of the pregnancies and also increases the genetically lottery chance by knocking up two different females.

Now i know a lot of the players have young kids, but i think they should have more, with another girl. Plenty of celebrities have open marriages in the states, i think this is our best chance of getting more F/S coming through.

Josh Hill, thank you for paving the way and setting up the blueprint.
Click to expand...


I like this line of thinking as its INSIDE the box. ;)

The ethics are just fine ........... the morality of it ....... maybe ..... not so much.
 
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shooshka said:
Agree it is very unlikely. With the caveat that Dangerflog might try to negotiate it (knowing it will never impact his cosy life at Moggs Creek), and then tell everyone how great the deal is for players.

It would have to be trade without player permission, anywhere.

Relocation costs, probably outside any cap… with restrictions (I.e. WC can’t pay private school relocation fees for a players child to relocate from a public school). Or maybe a fixed rate depending on the departure and destination location (I.e. melb to melb $0, melb to Perth $25k).



On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
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There is a $5k relocation payment to any draftee or traded player, that has to move interstate in the CBA, that is outside the salary cap.
 
ArdentEagle said:
He's had some weigh issues but certainly not over weight at the moment. He's never been slow and he has much more skills and tricks than Gaff.
Even if he does slow, he's got other tricks in the bag, which Gaff doesn't. Poor comparison for mine.
Port-Adelaide-Football-Club_Intraclub-9_1.jpg
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Hes been very average since he got there. Not bad, but player 16th-22nd best player selected each week. I'm pretty happy with a late second based on his output.
 
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