List Mgmt. Contract, Trade & Draftee Discussion, 2023: Picks 1,20,34,39,53 ,58

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2024 List Changes : Out: Retired- Gaff Delisted - Jones, Trew(R), Baker(R), Witherden, Burgiel, Culley(R), Rotham, L Edwards Traded - Darling (NM) Barrass (Hawthorn) In: Trade/FA acquisitions - Graham (Richmond) Baker (Richmond) Owies (Carlton) Draft - Allan (Pick 16) Shanahan (Pick 30) Gross...

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[Eddie_Sandbrah]

Heeney, Blakey, Hodge (in a couple of years).

The Academies are converting some decent players to AFL, but also allowing clubs to grab guys (noting the academy help likely improved them as juniors) who were always going to be AFL players.

That's just part of the parcel though. For every Blakey and Walter, there's a Heeney or Callum Mills. The AFL just have to grow the game in the Northern states and accept some kids were always going to be AFL players anyway.

Is the loss of significant talent in regional WA (for different reasons) also not an issue.

How are they being lost? Not saying they're not, just want to understand this.

Parts of SA would have similar problems.

AFL run academies - no issue with that, and if the argument is ‘but players may not want to leave their state’ - um isn’t that the huge problem we have been battling with for a while… let’s not encourage it!

The argument is not ‘but players may not want to leave their state'. The argument is, that a kid growing up in Sydney or Brisbane, supported League all his life, and then sees an option to play in his home state? That's entirely different to "I don't want to leave". It's putting an alternative option in front of them from about 12 years of age.

 

[Wooshaaaa]

Academy and NGA is almost the root cause of the problem though.

Nth get pick 2&3 this year (McKay isn’t worth 3, but Frawley wasn’t years ago either), take Walter and Curtin/McKercher - how much better does their rebuild look?

Alternatively we trade back to #2 for Walter and Nth get Reid.

Or, if teams are allowed to match get rid of the discount, and ideally make them chase a pick in the same round. So 4 moves up to 2 (instead of a bundle of 2nd rounders), and GC need to chase more 1st rounders if they want to match the other 2 in the top 10-12.

F/S, is what it is but remove the discount.

Nth would be better already (plus in future) with any of the above changes. Way too much benefit is going to decent/competitive teams


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No one's getting Walter except suns. He is already in the suns gym training with the players.

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[Eddie_Sandbrah]

No one's getting Walter except suns. He is already in the suns gym training with the players.

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He's not saying that, he's saying either the Suns shouldn't have access to him, or all other clubs should have the same access to their own NGA's.

Which is basically saying clubs in non-AFL territories should not be given any advantages and should be left to have any good players they acquire, pillaged by AFL-heartland clubs.

If we want it to work, we have to give them concessions.

 

[Tyberious Funk]

No team should get priority picks to help with under-performance. Not us. Not North.

If you suck, you already get access to the best talent -- that's the way the draft works. Getting access to more talent isn't going to solve the underlying problems. North have sucked for years and had a raft of top picks, and it hasn't helped. How is a priority pick suddenly going to make them successful?

IMHO, the AFL should implement an assistance package that's tailored specifically to the issues a team has been struggling with. We've been destroyed by injuries, so I'd welcome soft-cap relief, particularly if it's targeted towards more S&C resources. But there's no way we'd apply for something like that, because there is no way the AFL is giving a rich club money, so we'd have to fund it ourselves... and there is no way our cheapskate club is prepared to do that.

Similarly, I think North could do with more soft cap relief for high-performance and development. Or give them some salary cap relief in order to target a big-name trade. But there's no way the AFL will do that, because they're too cheap to hand over the money to North, and North don't have the cash themselves.

Nope... the AFL are a one-trick pony, and will just further compromise the draft because it doesn't actually cost them anything.

It's lazy management.

 

[CountryLad]

Fixing the NGA system isn't actually that difficult there is just no will from the AFL to do so.
Have it so the only way to match an NGA pick in the first round is with a first round pick.
Have the rule be equal for all clubs across the comp.
Then from 2nd round onwards you can just match as you can now.

None of this post 40 rubbish for select clubs. Keeps the rules even across the comp.
Still provides incentives for all clubs to invest in their NGAs unlike now where really it's NSW/QLD where they are incentivised.

For the Draft have no PP and the only assistance available to clubs is through Soft Cap and facility grants, etc..

And for those saying North have been worse for longer. Maybe Sacking a coach every 1-2years hasn't helped and Gutting their list of experience also wasn't the wisest of decisions.

Agree that it wouldn’t be that hard to fix the NGA system so it was fair for all clubs and encouraged the development of kids in all areas of the country.
Can match bids so long as you have a selection in that round. It would mean that the suns would still get Walter but may miss Read and Rodgers unless they grabbed another 1st round selection.
In the Eagles case if Collard was bid on in the second round before pick 33 then we could match but we lose pick 33 and have to find the points to match. If he was bid on in the first round we miss out unless we trade a 1st round pick in.

Discounts should be removed for both father son and Academy selections.

 

[Eddie_Sandbrah]

IMHO, the AFL should implement an assistance package that's tailored specifically to the issues a team has been struggling with.

Problem definition: They are perennial strugglers off the field
Analysis: They have a small geographical supporter base that cannot be expanded immediately from it's current geographical supporter base
Solution: f-off to Canberra where there are 400k potential new supporters, or to the VFL.

No other assistance will help. They're just not viable in the long term. Everyone in Melbourne already have the allegiances. Unless North supporters are having a heap of kids, it's just not happening in Melbourne.

 

[Phas]

You're sort of saying, "hey AFL, give us concessions that allow us to be the biggest and best". That's called Eddie McGuire Syndrome.

They have to find something that is fair and financially viable. Not easy. But they do have to workshop the whole system to see if there is something better. The Adelaide teams seem to be doing okay. Is it just cycles, or are they doing something better than us, or are we unfairly restricted?

I probably portrayed the suggestion poorly.

I don't mean for any perks to extend to the AFL squad, purely to help structure a successful reserves squad that would become intertwined with the academy.

If elite talents emerge through that reserves squad or colts system, they would be held to the same draft conditions as existing academies.

 

[Eddie_Sandbrah]

Agree that it wouldn’t be that hard to fix the NGA system so it was fair for all clubs and encouraged the development of kids in all areas of the country.
Can match bids so long as you have a selection in that round. It would mean that the suns would still get Walter but may miss Read and Rodgers unless they grabbed another 1st round selection.
In the Eagles case if Collard was bid on in the second round before pick 33 then we could match but we lose pick 33 and have to find the points to match. If he was bid on in the first round we miss out unless we trade a 1st round pick in.

Discounts should be removed for both father son and Academy selections.

What is it about clubs in non AFL territories that you don't understand?

It's purposely not fair to compensate for a different set of inequalities.

 

[shooshka]

He's not saying that, he's saying either the Suns should have access to him, or all other clubs should have the same access to their own NGA's.

Which is basically saying clubs in non-AFL territories should not be given any advantages and should be left to have any good players they acquire, pillaged by AFL-heartland clubs.

If we want it to work, we have to give them concessions.

I’m saying that the advantage is too great, and is absolutely linked to minnow club’s struggles (as is the go-home factor but only ever to big vic clubs - as you rightly mention).

To answer your earlier question around how talent is lost in WA, many from remote communities don’t like it in the city (either they come and try and go back, or never try).

To make it from northern WA (and a lot of the NT, but that is the suns zone) kids need to board at a private school away from family for at least 2 years. Clearly an academy system closer to home would help (but it would help certain clubs too much, hence is ignored).

Happy for the suns to get Walter, but they 100% should have to use pick #4, and be forced to trade up into the first round for read and rogers.

I’m not anti academy and am aware it does grow the game. But equally the AFL have their head in the sand about how much damage academies and F/S (and the bidding system) are doing to equalisation. Hence priority picks for Nth get discussed (as they didn’t get access to the best players and/or elite players in positions of need).


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[Eddie_Sandbrah]

Happy for the suns to get Walter, but they 100% should have to use pick #4, and be forced to trade up into the first round for read and rogers.

That's pretty applicable to FS as well. The current rule of being able to amass a heap of chicken feed for top line players is ludicrous.

 

[Dark Sharks]

No one's getting Walter except suns. He is already in the suns gym training with the players.

I could curl more than him easily.

 

[eaglevision]

Anyone watch the Coates League GF? Any standouts?

 

[bzparkes]

Anyone watch the Coates League GF? Any standouts?

Difficult to watch when it starts in 25 minutes...

 

[bzparkes]

Oh, Coates league. My bad.

 

[Spange]

What is the tipping point when concessions are stopped for “non-afl territory” clubs. Sydney have more members than some Melbourne based clubs and have had more success than many.

GWS and Gold Coast would need to double their membership totals to even be in the same ball park as a battler club like North Melbourne.

So I wonder what the AFL strategy is. Is it to prop up non territory clubs like GWS/Swans/lions/suns until they win a premiership or win 15 games in a season or win more than last year or hit 70k members. ****en most frustrating and bush league going.

It sure as shit doesn’t appear to have a parity pillar to it.

 

[UseR2006]

You need to provide an advantage to clubs in non-AFL territories. AFL heartland clubs have a history of pillaging these clubs of talent at the back end, so give them the advantage at the front end.

We're in the top 2 biggest sporting clubs in the country and you're getting upset at some concessions offered to minnows? I bet you're typing this with some caviar and glass of chardy. You may even be wearing a skipper's costume.

What it will do is stop this constant sale of high end picks out of GC. Just look at the frenzy for Pick 4 right now.
None of this would be happening if they actually needed that pick for their NGA talent.
In fact they might be more inclined to try and get more picks that are high end to acquire multiple NGA picks.

Under the system suggested they would get 1 of the 3 they want with pick 4. Could trade up for a second 1st rounder to get a second and the 1 or 2 remaining would increase the talent pool in the first round.

Otherwise you might as well just make the draft state based and tell the clubs to invest in local development. But that'll never happen because the vics would need to divide the local pool by 9 clubs.

 

[eaglevision]

Difficult to watch when it starts in 25 minutes...

Yeah Coates, not Colts. Will Brown BOG and a few players in there who will go top 20. Couldn’t watch it.

 

[WCE_phil]

About to watch WAFL colts GF and North, Melbourne and Sydney recruitment members here as well. Multiple people from Kanga's and Dees.

 

[tigger_ferret]

What is it about clubs in non AFL territories that you don't understand?

It's purposely not fair to compensate for a different set of inequalities.

Inequalities exist throughout the competition

Where are the compensation measures for teams with significantly more travel burden??

 

[bzparkes]

About to watch WAFL colts GF and North, Melbourne and Sydney recruitment members here as well. Multiple people from Kanga's and Dees.

Yep I'm watching it too but I'm not at the game and it's only my kid here.

She's too young to be a talent scout.

 

[Eddie_Sandbrah]

What is the tipping point when concessions are stopped for “non-afl territory” clubs. Sydney have more members than some Melbourne based clubs and have had more success than many.

Yep, and those Melbourne clubs are not sustainable.

GWS and Gold Coast would need to double their membership totals to even be in the same ball park as a battler club like North Melbourne.

Yep, and they will go way past North Melbourne because they have access to way more people. It will take time though - 20, 30, 40, 50 years. But it is certain, just as Norf have no capacity for growth in Melbourne.

So I wonder what the AFL strategy is. Is it to prop up non territory clubs like GWS/Swans/lions/suns until they win a premiership or win 15 games in a season or win more than last year or hit 70k members. *en most frustrating and bush league going.

It sure as s**t doesn’t appear to have a parity pillar to it.

Why is it frustrating? There's only one club that has won more flags than us since our inception.

It has little to do with premierships. Premierships just fast track the growth. It's about memberships and grassroots footy/being able to develop their own local talent.

This is the price that has to be paid to make sure AFL is the number 1 code in the country. We're still thriving, so why should it bother us?

 

[eaglevision]

About to watch WAFL colts GF and North, Melbourne and Sydney recruitment members here as well. Multiple people from Kanga's and Dees.

Interesting… surely other than Curtin, ZZ and OHB are the only 2 that might be a chance somewhere (probably us with 50s). Curtin might be available for Dees pick but Swans must have something in mind…

 

[Dark Sharks]

About to watch WAFL colts GF and North, Melbourne and Sydney recruitment members here as well. Multiple people from Kanga's and Dees.

Sounds like a lot of swinging dicks just to see Curtin.

 

[Priddis Is Done]

And before the 8 wins over 2 years system there was the "less than 5 wins in any season" system. Hodge, Ball and Judd were taken under that system where 3 teams qualified for priority picks. So we've qualified under each of the last 2 systems.

Flag in 2018 is irrelevant to the discussion.
The AFL is adamant their rules are intended to encourage an even competition. With 5 wins across 2 seasons, we're clearly nowhere near competitive to the rest of the teams. If the AFL wants priority picks to help clubs catch up who might otherwise spend an excessive time on the bottom, we should be getting one right now and not after another 2-3 years down the bottom.

Norf receiving an assistance package now, after 5 years at the bottom, feels like it's a couple years too late. Any kid drafted with pick 11 won't be helping Norf win games for 3-4 years at least. That's a decade after their rebuild began.

I loved the old system. Imagine having 1 & 3 this year and similar next year. Turbo charges the rebuild.

 

[dinnaz]

The solution is to cut the handouts and let the clubs that rely on them to either justify their existence in the competition by standing on their own two feet or find another way to survive (merger, relocation dropping down to VFL)

All clubs receive $$$ from the AFL though. If we didn't receive anything we would be broke also in a few years.