Curtains for Hawthorn?

[Dawson]

Totally understand mate, I cringe at plenty of Hawk nominated members posts.

I had plenty complaining around me that the Hawks weren't kicking it around the packs but the pressure the hawks had from the pies to get it clear enough to kick it, not to mention the pressure from the pies backman to cut off any options making them hold it a bit longer.

Agreed, and its silly to suggest that pressure would be the same if you had a full list, good footballers know how to deal with that kind of pressure. 5 of the outs you had would have dealt with it far differently.

Malthouse exposed your lack of talent as you would expect him to do, put that talent back into your side and Malthouse has to come up with a different/modified plan.

 

[hazz33]

2008 home and away
we lost to the saints cats and dogs
2008 finals
we smashed the dogs and saints and beat the cats in the grannie

 

[Roby]

It would be better if we do not make the finals

First of all I would like to say, that last year I was very hopeful given we got some players back, we could make a late push come finals time. Most people believed, (and rightly so), halfway through the season, that we could not make the finals. I insisted that only could we make it, but possibly even win the flag.

Since then things have changed. Players like Croad, Campbell, Boyle and Dew have retired. I'm still not sure why Boyle retired given we NEED good players in defense more than any other club, given Croad and Campbell, (who use to go back and plug holes in defense), retired, why he left at all in the end. Then again players like McGlynn, Kennedy and Williams have also left. I know that Essendon offered Williams a much better contract but with the Sydney boys now, I have being led to believe we made clear there weren't going to be many opportunities by only offering a one year contract. If those players had of played for us we would of being 3-0 in the first three rounds and a different season was unfolding.

Now, given the injury situation that derailed last season, you would of thought that an improvement from the medical and fitness staff, along with a improvement of squad depth would of being two high priorities for the Hawthorn Football Club. The evidence as an observer on the outside suggests it doesn't appear so.

Last season we had by far, the worst run of injuries of any team, and almost made the finals. We had probably the worst possible scenario were our defense was crippled for a massive portion of the season, making it nigh impossible to win games, and consequently we did not win those games, costing us finals, costing more players, as players were then rushed back to salvage the season, and causing more injuries. In the end it probably showed that we have some superstar players at our club that carry the rest of the team but not all the time.

Injuries hurt all sides but they hurt Hawthorn more than other sides. An example is compare St Kilda's gameplan to Hawthorn's. Last year St Kilda played Hawthorn with 8 players out but we still got trashed. Yet their gameplan did not suffer as they do not articulate the zone over the ground. They use a triangle congestion, were 3 players try to move in on the ball, and as the other 2 players move of their man 2 more players move of their man to cover those positions.

Hawthorn on the other hand use the now well known rolling zone. This requires the whole team or at the very least, a dozen player to move in unison to cover an area. If one or two players do not follow suit, massive gap is created for the opposing team to penetrate, giving a free run up the ground. Hawthorn don't congest like St Kilda and therefore, if the ball is not turned over quickly, it means the opposition has beaten the zone. St Kilda on the other hand, aren't too worried if their zone is beaten as they will congest and either make you turn the ball over or create a stoppage. Rarely do teams breakthrough.

You must wonder why we Clarkson even bothers with our gameplan? The advantage of pure rolling zone vs the st kilda congestion, is when the ball is won back, there are more free players to hit in predefined positions, making it very easy to then attack. In St Kilda congestion you still have to work a bit harder to create space and move the ball forward. But if the players are not well drilled, than this advantage becomes a moot point. This is exacerbated when new younger players are coming in. Made worse when their is a constantly ever changing list of players due to injuries and so on.

You see where I'm getting at? Of course the naysayers will say that it's just bad luck. We have injuries like all clubs, we have bad form like all clubs, we make selection, list management, tribunal appeals, media handling, criticisms of opposing clubs, the AFL, umpires, training facilities and fixture mistakes like all clubs. While this maybe true, it doesn't make it necessarily ok. I don't feel the need to point out the right things that we have done right over the last 5 years because they have being well publicized and highlighted, time after time, after winning the premiership. Those things we did right were so because the club realised that after the success they enjoyed in the 80's that things needed to change in order to improve. We did too many things wrong and after many, many years we realised changes need to be made, to rectify wrongs.

We are at a crossroads again. Yes we won a flag two years ago, but West Coast had won one in 2006 and two years later due to certain circumstances, were made to rethink their position and decided they needed to rebuild. They still have half a dozen premiership players but that doesn't mean anything now. The same applies for us. Two years before we won the premiership we did not make the finals. The same goes for Geelong, who almost had their coach sacked the year before. Two years and a lot can happen. Sure I love seeing Hawthorn competing in the finals, but what is the point if we are not going to win a premiership? The two finals we played the year before Hawthorn won the flag, were very important to our young players to give them necessary experience. I'm sure the tight final against Adelaide at the then named Telstra Dome, was valuable for our players. On the other hand now if we make the finals this year, I don't see how our premiership players are going to learn much from being beaten.

I feel that if we make the finals:
- The coach will still think that our gameplan is good enough and we don't need a gameplan B or C.
- We will only shorten the playing careers of some of our players, and have another bad pre-season going into 2011, with consequently another difficult season.
- Kennett will still think it's fine to make jabs at opposing teams, riling them up when they play against us.
- The Medical and Fitness staff will be commended for getting us through the season and into the finals, only repeating our injury situation for years to come and crippling more player careers.
- Most of the playing group will feel like that "doing a Collingwood" and making finals is a good enough objective.
- Getting rid of certain players were the correct decisions, and more bad list management, recruitment and trades will follow, and a general decline of our list.
- Allowing opposing clubs with an open window to the so called closed training sessions, is acceptable.
- Playing 3 of the 4 top teams in the first 4 rounds is always going to be considered a great fixture.
- Continually appealing with the AFL tribunal and adding more unnecessary carry over points is considered a intelligent approach.
- Hawthorn will be a good competitive team for the next few years but without winning or maybe even contesting a premiership.

 

[Snoref]

An interesting point, Hawthorn's last two games against Geelong and Bulldogs, they lost. But also interesting is that the Cats then lost to Freo and the Dogs lost to the Lions the week after playing the Hawks.

Now, draw what you want from this but i think there is some sense in that those 2 games were very demanding games and hence why the Hawks were so flat last night.

 

[HFF]

An interesting point, Hawthorn's last two games against Geelong and Bulldogs, they lost. But also interesting is that the Cats then lost to Freo and the Dogs lost to the Lions the week after playing the Hawks.

Now, draw what you want from this but i think there is some sense in that those 2 games were very demanding games and hence why the Hawks were so flat last night.

You do realise both sides travelled interstate though?

Geelong to WA and Lions to the Gabba where that has been a fortress so far this season.

Hawks have played every game in Melbourne.

There's nothing to read into though. The season is 4 weeks old. The "demanding" excuse is rubbish.

Collingwood didn't use the game vs WB in round 1 as a "demanding excuse" when they confronted Melb in round 2, despite being flat. Nor did we use it as an excuse after our "demanding" game against the Saints last week at Etihad.

Read into that what you will.

 

[caitsith01]

An interesting point, Hawthorn's last two games against Geelong and Bulldogs, they lost. But also interesting is that the Cats then lost to Freo and the Dogs lost to the Lions the week after playing the Hawks.

Now, draw what you want from this but i think there is some sense in that those 2 games were very demanding games and hence why the Hawks were so flat last night.

I think this is a fair point - Geelong definitely struggled a bit the week after that game.

Ignore the Collingwood trolls, biggest bunch of front-runners I've ever seen. Where are Didak and Davis when the heat is really on?

But the Hawks do need wins, and need them badly. Fair to say their season is on the line in the next 3-4 weeks - need to win at least 3 out of the next 4 to have a chance.

The lack of depth is a real worry. Geelong for example has played pretty well without Scarlett the last couple of weeks, and has also been missing a number of other quality players (e.g. last week Milburn, Ottens, all year so far Stokes & Varcoe).

 

[Snoref]

You do realise both sides travelled interstate though?

Geelong to WA and Lions to the Gabba where that has been a fortress so far this season.

Hawks have played every game in Melbourne.

There's nothing to read into though. The season is 4 weeks old. The "demanding" excuse is rubbish.

Collingwood didn't use the game vs WB in round 1 as a "demanding excuse" when they confronted Melb in round 2, despite being flat. Nor did we use it as an excuse after our "demanding" game against the Saints last week at Etihad.

Read into that what you will.

exactly my point, you guys didn't travel and only won by 1 against a "bottom 4 side"

 

[Dawson]

exactly my point, you guys didn't travel and only won by 1 against a "bottom 4 side"

What should the score have been?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Re: It would be better if we do not make the finals

First of all I would like to say, that last year I was very hopeful given we got some players back, we could make a late push come finals time. Most people believed, (and rightly so), halfway through the season, that we could not make the finals. I insisted that only could we make it, but possibly even win the flag.

Since then things have changed. Players like Croad, Campbell, Boyle and Dew have retired. I'm still not sure why Boyle retired given we NEED good players in defense more than any other club, given Croad and Campbell, (who use to go back and plug holes in defense), retired, why he left at all in the end. Then again players like McGlynn, Kennedy and Williams have also left. I know that Essendon offered Williams a much better contract but with the Sydney boys now, I have being led to believe we made clear there weren't going to be many opportunities by only offering a one year contract. If those players had of played for us we would of being 3-0 in the first three rounds and a different season was unfolding.

Now, given the injury situation that derailed last season, you would of thought that an improvement from the medical and fitness staff, along with a improvement of squad depth would of being two high priorities for the Hawthorn Football Club. The evidence as an observer on the outside suggests it doesn't appear so.

Last season we had by far, the worst run of injuries of any team, and almost made the finals. We had probably the worst possible scenario were our defense was crippled for a massive portion of the season, making it nigh impossible to win games, and consequently we did not win those games, costing us finals, costing more players, as players were then rushed back to salvage the season, and causing more injuries. In the end it probably showed that we have some superstar players at our club that carry the rest of the team but not all the time.

Injuries hurt all sides but they hurt Hawthorn more than other sides. An example is compare St Kilda's gameplan to Hawthorn's. Last year St Kilda played Hawthorn with 8 players out but we still got trashed. Yet their gameplan did not suffer as they do not articulate the zone over the ground. They use a triangle congestion, were 3 players try to move in on the ball, and as the other 2 players move of their man 2 more players move of their man to cover those positions.

Hawthorn on the other hand use the now well known rolling zone. This requires the whole team or at the very least, a dozen player to move in unison to cover an area. If one or two players do not follow suit, massive gap is created for the opposing team to penetrate, giving a free run up the ground. Hawthorn don't congest like St Kilda and therefore, if the ball is not turned over quickly, it means the opposition has beaten the zone. St Kilda on the other hand, aren't too worried if their zone is beaten as they will congest and either make you turn the ball over or create a stoppage. Rarely do teams breakthrough.

You must wonder why we Clarkson even bothers with our gameplan? The advantage of pure rolling zone vs the st kilda congestion, is when the ball is won back, there are more free players to hit in predefined positions, making it very easy to then attack. In St Kilda congestion you still have to work a bit harder to create space and move the ball forward. But if the players are not well drilled, than this advantage becomes a moot point. This is exacerbated when new younger players are coming in. Made worse when their is a constantly ever changing list of players due to injuries and so on.

You see where I'm getting at? Of course the naysayers will say that it's just bad luck. We have injuries like all clubs, we have bad form like all clubs, we make selection, list management, tribunal appeals, media handling, criticisms of opposing clubs, the AFL, umpires, training facilities and fixture mistakes like all clubs. While this maybe true, it doesn't make it necessarily ok. I don't feel the need to point out the right things that we have done right over the last 5 years because they have being well publicized and highlighted, time after time, after winning the premiership. Those things we did right were so because the club realised that after the success they enjoyed in the 80's that things needed to change in order to improve. We did too many things wrong and after many, many years we realised changes need to be made, to rectify wrongs.

We are at a crossroads again. Yes we won a flag two years ago, but West Coast had won one in 2006 and two years later due to certain circumstances, were made to rethink their position and decided they needed to rebuild. They still have half a dozen premiership players but that doesn't mean anything now. The same applies for us. Two years before we won the premiership we did not make the finals. The same goes for Geelong, who almost had their coach sacked the year before. Two years and a lot can happen. Sure I love seeing Hawthorn competing in the finals, but what is the point if we are not going to win a premiership? The two finals we played the year before Hawthorn won the flag, were very important to our young players to give them necessary experience. I'm sure the tight final against Adelaide at the then named Telstra Dome, was valuable for our players. On the other hand now if we make the finals this year, I don't see how our premiership players are going to learn much from being beaten.

I feel that if we make the finals:
- The coach will still think that our gameplan is good enough and we don't need a gameplan B or C.
- We will only shorten the playing careers of some of our players, and have another bad pre-season going into 2011, with consequently another difficult season.
- Kennett will still think it's fine to make jabs at opposing teams, riling them up when they play against us.
- The Medical and Fitness staff will be commended for getting us through the season and into the finals, only repeating our injury situation for years to come and crippling more player careers.
- Most of the playing group will feel like that "doing a Collingwood" and making finals is a good enough objective.
- Getting rid of certain players were the correct decisions, and more bad list management, recruitment and trades will follow, and a general decline of our list.
- Allowing opposing clubs with an open window to the so called closed training sessions, is acceptable.
- Playing 3 of the 4 top teams in the first 4 rounds is always going to be considered a great fixture.
- Continually appealing with the AFL tribunal and adding more unnecessary carry over points is considered a intelligent approach.
- Hawthorn will be a good competitive team for the next few years but without winning or maybe even contesting a premiership.

There's a lot wrong with this post, but seeing as you've cut and pasted the same thing onto the Hawk board, we can discuss it there.

 

[Roby]

Re: It would be better if we do not make the finals

There's a lot wrong with this post, but seeing as you've cut and pasted the same thing onto the Hawk board, we can discuss it there.

Interesting. You made no rebuttal on the Hawthorn board, so I doubt I can discuss it with you there. So, I will say to you, there is not a lot wrong with your post, as your post consists of only one sentence. Unfortunately for you there is nothing right with your post either.

 

[HSSB]

Its not a done deal that we will make the 8 but I would be surprised if we didn't make the 8. I would be surprised if we won it all I really see this as a rebuilding year. Have a few areas we need to get games into players in (namely down back and hopefully in the second half of the year with Bailey in the Ruck).

I think we showed against the Cats and Dogs that we can play near the top teams but our depth is inexperienced and that will hurt us. Playing kids this year with the injuries will help us in future.

But please, in all the bagging of the Hawks (which is fair enough), don't take it away from the Pies as they were very good last night!

Completely agree with this post, just wasn't happy with the result last night.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Re: It would be better if we do not make the finals

Interesting. You made no rebuttal on the Hawthorn board, so I doubt I can discuss it with you there. So, I will say to you, there is not a lot wrong with your post, as your post consists of only one sentence. Unfortunately for you there is nothing right with your post either.

Love is in the air

Get a room

 

[cradle of filth]

We've played 3 of last years top 4 so far. Unfortunately we lost all 3 games but last nights was the only one that we weren't competitive in.

Injuries aren't an excuse but we will get Burgoyne, Buddy and Sewell back next week against North Melbourne. After that we play Essendon and then West Coast at Subi. We're in a tight spot but win these next three games and all of the sudden we're sitting in the eight at 4-3 with a stronger line-up than in the first month.

I agree that we need a key defender almost as badly as we need a second ruckman. But hey, we've played 3 of the best teams going around so far so it can only get easier from here until we play St Kilda in the second half of the season.

I disagree that we have no depth or young talent. Carl Peterson, Jarryd Morton, Liam Sheils, Brent Renouf and Ryan Schoenmakers all look promising to me.

Next week is a MUST WIN game but i'm still feeling confident towards the rest of the year.

 

[winty]

In 1997 and 1998, Adelaide were 1-3 after 4 rounds. They went on to win the flag both years.
In 1999, North Melbourne were 1-3 after 4 rounds. They went on to win the flag.
In 2001, Brisbane were 1-3 after 4 rounds. They went on to win the flag.
In 2004, Geelong were 1-3 after 4 rounds. They went on to make the preliminary final.
In 2006, Sydney were 1-3 after 4 rounds. They went on to make the grand final.
In 2007, Geelong were 2-3 after 5 rounds. They went on to win the flag.

I'm not saying Hawthorn are a monty for the flag, but it's foolish to write a team off after a month of the season has transpired.

 

[FuManchu]

exactly my point, you guys didn't travel and only won by 1 against a "bottom 4 side"

We won by a fair margin last night against a bottom 4 side

 

[Jeebus]

Looked absolutely terrible on Sat night. However they have had a tough draw and a few injuries, you'd have to write top 4 off for them because you need to be able to beat atleast a few of the Pies, Bulldogs, Geelongs etc and they have lost all 3 ... but definently still in the hunt for finals.

 

[Rik E Boy]

We seemed to go fine when we had our 7 players out of our 22

Wank wank money in the bank, root root no loot.

 

[Pie eyed]

Wank wank money in the bank, root root no loot.

LOL. Good advice from the old man then?

 

[Pie eyed]

exactly my point, you guys didn't travel and only won by 1 against a "bottom 4 side"

Pointless comparison and not even really a point unless you're into fabricating excuses.

4 Rnds in it's way too early to write off any side.

 

[Roosurgence]

Hawthorn are good to average at best, but the fact that there are plenty of very average sides below them means they will most likely sneak into the 8 and make up the numbers.

Their defence has never really recovered since Croad was injured and other teams have cottoned on to their game style.

With Richmond, Melbourne, West Coast, North, Adelaide, Essendon, Carlton and Port there are 8 teams who realistically are below them, they should make the 8.

 

[JoondalupJ]

I'm a little worried . But I would suggest that the Hawks are having troubles at the right end of the season. They have a lot talent, so something is just not comming together at the moment, and they know they can do much better.
I am just hoping that it will turn around and they will reach the point they should be at soon.
Don't want to make excuses but they have three players down who are new and were
supposed to fill spots ,Gibson,Skipper and Burgoyne who has not fronted yet. Gone are Willow Mcglynn and Kennedy, we are having trouble fillin g holes but it will come together eventually , we have got the players and our plans are set over several years ,we have 1 flag we will come back.

 

[JoondalupJ]

In 1997 and 1998, Adelaide were 1-3 after 4 rounds. They went on to win the flag both years.
In 1999, North Melbourne were 1-3 after 4 rounds. They went on to win the flag.
In 2001, Brisbane were 1-3 after 4 rounds. They went on to win the flag.
In 2004, Geelong were 1-3 after 4 rounds. They went on to make the preliminary final.
In 2006, Sydney were 1-3 after 4 rounds. They went on to make the grand final.
In 2007, Geelong were 2-3 after 5 rounds. They went on to win the flag.

I'm not saying Hawthorn are a monty for the flag, but it's foolish to write a team off after a month of the season has transpired.

Thanks for the reminder Winty, I also remember the Hawks got massacred by Adelaide in 1991 first round and I mean a real flogging, we did pretty good that year. Its early but all sides will form up in their proper spots in the next 6 weeks.
I think we still have the same three big clubs to get over ( thats all of us in the AFL)
Geelong,StKilda and the Doggies I think the Pies did great on Sat night but they nearly fell over against Melbourne, in fact they fell in hey? Footy is a strange game ups and downs will be the order of the day for the first half of the season.
Gotta say its good to see Freo and Melbourne looking like real football teams. Dockers do not need to comment on today being an honorable loss that is a silly description,
they have turned a real corner today they will learn from and THIS YEAR they will come back and be right up there . Saints are a bloody good side with depth, so good work saints but it wasn't easy hey?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Re: It would be better if we do not make the finals

Interesting. You made no rebuttal on the Hawthorn board, so I doubt I can discuss it with you there. So, I will say to you, there is not a lot wrong with your post, as your post consists of only one sentence. Unfortunately for you there is nothing right with your post either.

Post number 56, in the apply named "Assorted Doom and Gloom thread".
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?p=17458873#post17458873

See you there.

 

[Nankervis brothers]

Re: It would be better if we do not make the finals

They have played three of last years Prelim finalists, and looked very competitive against two of those teams. Were clearly flat against the Pies due to the intense physical nature of consecutive games against Geelong and the Dogs.

To be sure, they really needed to win one of those games to be taken seriously as a real threat this year. But they hardly disgraced themselves (w/ the exception of the COLL game, though again that looked like fatigue to me). My feeling is that they are off the pace compared to the top 4 teams, but a better unit than most run of the mill mid table sides.

I have them finishing has high as 6th and as low as 9th this year.

 

[QPower]

Re: It would be better if we do not make the finals

I think the fact they 'topped up' this year with Gibson and Burgoyne showed they misjudged their list - they are not close to a flag and wont'e be for some time.