Do we have the AFL's worst ruck division?

[Roddy27]

With Renouf there, Yes! With anyone of Bailey, Johnson, Lowden, Lisle or Grimley, No!

Renouf is a complete spud. The worst player I have seen at Hawthorn since Simon Crawshay!

Back to BH for you Renouf!

And as for winning a premiership with Renouf, he played prob 5 min of the GF and I rekon in those 5 Mins Geel prob kicked 3 goals!

I would rather renouf in the ruck than Lisle. I would rather him there than Grimely or lowden until they are physically ready. The only person who will push Twister out of the team in the forseeable future is Max.

Your slamming of him is digusting. He's a player at the club you barrack for, not your worst enemy. These are cheap, weak, pathetic shots from behind a keyboard without any real discussion on his game. No one pretends that Renouf is the worlds best ruckman- but he's only 22, he deserves more time at a lesser level to develop his game like what we afford lowden and co, he's carried this ruck burden by himself for near on two years without any thanks or care for the situation he's been put in as a YOUNG under developed ruckman... And above all else- he's a Hawk. We are supposed to look after our own- not treat them with such disregard.

If you think players don't read these boards, then you are wrong. Players do, the media do, what you say and do has an effect on other people. Players do need the truth, yes- but they need to receive it in the form of solutions that will actually help them- not scorn that only helps you behind your keyboard feel good about yourself.

 

[tommyk72]

Seems like we've found our new whipping boy for 2011. Given everyone is calling for Tommy Murphy to be back in the squad and be our saviour there was definitely a position free.

Get some freaking perspective people. It was one game. Give him a few to work into the season and then see where he's at. He definitely wasn't alone in being poor on the weekend.

I think he's got a few runs in the bank given he essentially rucked the whole of last year alone. And did a pretty good job of it. Definitely not elite, but certainly not the worst going around.

He may not be our saviour, and he does have a long way to go, but geeze, I haven't seen a more hysterical bunch since our selectors dared to choose Franklin over Tambling.

 

[Taskmaster]

I would rather renouf in the ruck than Lisle. I would rather him there than Grimely or lowden until they are physically ready. The only person who will push Twister out of the team in the forseeable future is Max.

Your slamming of him is digusting. He's a player at the club you barrack for, not your worst enemy. These are cheap, weak, pathetic shots from behind a keyboard without any real discussion on his game. No one pretends that Renouf is the worlds best ruckman- but he's only 22, he deserves more time at a lesser level to develop his game like what we afford lowden and co, he's carried this ruck burden by himself for near on two years without any thanks or care for the situation he's been put in as a YOUNG under developed ruckman... And above all else- he's a Hawk. We are supposed to look after our own- not treat them with such disregard.

If you think players don't read these boards, then you are wrong. Players do, the media do, what you say and do has an effect on other people. Players do need the truth, yes- but they need to receive it in the form of solutions that will actually help them- not scorn that only helps you behind your keyboard feel good about yourself.

Cheap, weak and pathetic you rekon? Its the truth! He gets paid good money to play the game, so he is open to critisism.

He has been in the system for 4 years now. How long do you give someone to develop. Call it an apprenticeship, but I dont know any apprentice that earns 6 figure imcomes to develop and learn. You either know how to play the game or you dont.

You also state that he has taken on the ruck burden for the last 3 years, is that why we have under performed?? I mean there are so many people on this forum that crap on about our rucks, so if our rucks are crap, then what does that tell you??? Renouf is no where near AFL standard.

I am not sorry for what I say about him. Why is it that when he does get his 3 touches a game, that everyone holds their breath?? These guys are meant to be the best, well, I rekon there would be a number of blokes that play in the local leagues that would be all over renouf.

Sorry if you think I am harsh on him, but Im sick of sub par seasons and performances from the so called "best" in the business. Its about time he steps up and plays like he is.

I do not rate him, I'll still support him, only because he is a Hawk, but I dont rate him as an AFL standard player. When you earn those sorts of $$$ you might want to earn it. And it makes me feel very un easy, knowing what Jamar is going to do to him this week. Hope he proves me wrong, but I highly doubt it!

 

[HAWKSFAN]

Cheap, weak and pathetic you rekon? Its the truth! He gets paid good money to play the game, so he is open to critisism.

He has been in the system for 4 years now. How long do you give someone to develop. Call it an apprenticeship, but I dont know any apprentice that earns 6 figure imcomes to develop and learn. You either know how to play the game or you dont.

You also state that he has taken on the ruck burden for the last 3 years, is that why we have under performed?? I mean there are so many people on this forum that crap on about our rucks, so if our rucks are crap, then what does that tell you??? Renouf is no where near AFL standard.

I am not sorry for what I say about him. Why is it that when he does get his 3 touches a game, that everyone holds their breath?? These guys are meant to be the best, well, I rekon there would be a number of blokes that play in the local leagues that would be all over renouf.

Sorry if you think I am harsh on him, but Im sick of sub par seasons and performances from the so called "best" in the business. Its about time he steps up and plays like he is.

I do not rate him, I'll still support him, only because he is a Hawk, but I dont rate him as an AFL standard player. When you earn those sorts of $$$ you might want to earn it. And it makes me feel very un easy, knowing what Jamar is going to do to him this week. Hope he proves me wrong, but I highly doubt it!

He did some pretty awful things against the crows...that kick was a SHOCKER, then handball straight to a running Adelaide player...also gave away wayyy to many free kicks...agree to this post, everyone is open to critisism / feedback...these guy's earn TOP $$$$...

 

[Roddy27]

Cheap, weak and pathetic you rekon? Its the truth! He gets paid good money to play the game, so he is open to critisism.

He has been in the system for 4 years now. How long do you give someone to develop. Call it an apprenticeship, but I dont know any apprentice that earns 6 figure imcomes to develop and learn. You either know how to play the game or you dont.

You also state that he has taken on the ruck burden for the last 3 years, is that why we have under performed?? I mean there are so many people on this forum that crap on about our rucks, so if our rucks are crap, then what does that tell you??? Renouf is no where near AFL standard.

I am not sorry for what I say about him. Why is it that when he does get his 3 touches a game, that everyone holds their breath?? These guys are meant to be the best, well, I rekon there would be a number of blokes that play in the local leagues that would be all over renouf.

Sorry if you think I am harsh on him, but Im sick of sub par seasons and performances from the so called "best" in the business. Its about time he steps up and plays like he is.

I do not rate him, I'll still support him, only because he is a Hawk, but I dont rate him as an AFL standard player. When you earn those sorts of $$$ you might want to earn it. And it makes me feel very un easy, knowing what Jamar is going to do to him this week. Hope he proves me wrong, but I highly doubt it!

You've entirely missed the point. The question is not whether players are open to criticism or not- of course they are. Everyone in their different professions are. But that is not what you did. Sometimes it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

TM- do you think coming onto an internet forum (or any forum) and saying "Renouf is a complete spud. The worst player I have seen at Hawthorn since Simon Crawshay!" is actual criticism? Do statements like these bare any relevance to your opinion that he is not an afl standard player? Do statements like this come under the banner of fair criticism? What part of what you said would help Brent get better?

No where in my response have I defended renouf's playing capabilities. But since you ask how long do you give someone to develop?- well traditionally ruckman don't mature into their prime until they are around 25- they take that long to learn the position more than anything else. Yes, there have been ruckmen throughout history who have had immediate impacts--- but most dont. My point in saying Renouf has shouldered a burden is to highlight the fact that we asked something from him as a club perhaps before he was ready. YES OF COURSE OUR BLOODY RUCKS havent been our strong point for two years- but when you ask a 20yr old to take the brunt of everything without required development- well maybe that should make you less angry at Brent and have some understanding of why he perhaps hasnt developed at the same rate as others in the team. You're just saying he's not good- you're not looking into the reasons why, and if you look at what has been asked of him- maybe you will develop some empathy for his situation.

Despite people bagging him, despite the fact that his own supporters berate him like he's a little kid in the play ground they can bully--- Brent will front up to training, he will front up to the game and he will play despite what is yelled at him from the stands...Do you think that because of what you earn people have a right to treat you poorly? Criticise, yes- you and i agree on this- but to treat someone as though they aren't a human being, with scorn and vitriol- who has the right to do that? Commenting on what players earn is such an irrelevant discussion. The game is what the game is- market forces determine what clubs earn and what players earn- and this is governed by the AFL. You draft players on potential- most kids drafted last 3-4 years- thats it... Earning a 6 figure salary has little to do with developing into an elite player. Brent is earning his fair % of dollars as dictated by the system he was drafted into. The only thing that is going to help Brent is support, and time to develop his game at a level where there is less pressure involved. If these things don't work, then the natural cycle of AFL life will take it's toll at some point in the future.



Would you call Brent a spud to his face?

 

[TheFourPillars]

You've entirely missed the point. The question is not whether players are open to criticism or not- of course they are. Everyone in their different professions are. But that is not what you did. Sometimes it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

TM- do you think coming onto an internet forum (or any forum) and saying "Renouf is a complete spud. The worst player I have seen at Hawthorn since Simon Crawshay!" is actual criticism? Do statements like these bare any relevance to your opinion that he is not an afl standard player? Do statements like this come under the banner of fair criticism? What part of what you said would help Brent get better?

No where in my response have I defended renouf's playing capabilities. But since you ask how long do you give someone to develop?- well traditionally ruckman don't mature into their prime until they are around 25- they take that long to learn the position more than anything else. Yes, there have been ruckmen throughout history who have had immediate impacts--- but most dont. My point in saying Renouf has shouldered a burden is to highlight the fact that we asked something from him as a club perhaps before he was ready. YES OF COURSE OUR BLOODY RUCKS havent been our strong point for two years- but when you ask a 20yr old to take the brunt of everything without required development- well maybe that should make you less angry at Brent and have some understanding of why he perhaps hasnt developed at the same rate as others in the team. You're just saying he's not good- you're not looking into the reasons why, and if you look at what has been asked of him- maybe you will develop some empathy for his situation.

Despite people bagging him, despite the fact that his own supporters berate him like he's a little kid in the play ground they can bully--- Brent will front up to training, he will front up to the game and he will play despite what is yelled at him from the stands...Do you think that because of what you earn people have a right to treat you poorly? Criticise, yes- you and i agree on this- but to treat someone as though they aren't a human being, with scorn and vitriol- who has the right to do that? Commenting on what players earn is such an irrelevant discussion. The game is what the game is- market forces determine what clubs earn and what players earn- and this is governed by the AFL. You draft players on potential- most kids drafted last 3-4 years- thats it... Earning a 6 figure salary has little to do with developing into an elite player. Brent is earning his fair % of dollars as dictated by the system he was drafted into. The only thing that is going to help Brent is support, and time to develop his game at a level where there is less pressure involved. If these things don't work, then the natural cycle of AFL life will take it's toll at some point in the future.



Would you call Brent a spud to his face?

Excellent post Roddy it seems there are a lot of so called arm chair critics on the internet. Criticism is fine try and make it constructive especially since its one your own. Own being a player that plays for the HFC and you being a HFC supporter and all...

 

[go hawks!!!]

I agree with roddy

TM were you criticizing runouf where he was tucking alone for the first 7 rounds in 2010 and was hardly beaten by his direct opponent.

He has a great attitude and is viewed highly by the coaching staff. He will learn from his mistakes and perform well this week against jamar who is a elite ruckman.

 

[Taskmaster]

You've entirely missed the point. The question is not whether players are open to criticism or not- of course they are. Everyone in their different professions are. But that is not what you did. Sometimes it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

TM- do you think coming onto an internet forum (or any forum) and saying "Renouf is a complete spud. The worst player I have seen at Hawthorn since Simon Crawshay!" is actual criticism? Do statements like these bare any relevance to your opinion that he is not an afl standard player? Do statements like this come under the banner of fair criticism? What part of what you said would help Brent get better?

No where in my response have I defended renouf's playing capabilities. But since you ask how long do you give someone to develop?- well traditionally ruckman don't mature into their prime until they are around 25- they take that long to learn the position more than anything else. Yes, there have been ruckmen throughout history who have had immediate impacts--- but most dont. My point in saying Renouf has shouldered a burden is to highlight the fact that we asked something from him as a club perhaps before he was ready. YES OF COURSE OUR BLOODY RUCKS havent been our strong point for two years- but when you ask a 20yr old to take the brunt of everything without required development- well maybe that should make you less angry at Brent and have some understanding of why he perhaps hasnt developed at the same rate as others in the team. You're just saying he's not good- you're not looking into the reasons why, and if you look at what has been asked of him- maybe you will develop some empathy for his situation.

Despite people bagging him, despite the fact that his own supporters berate him like he's a little kid in the play ground they can bully--- Brent will front up to training, he will front up to the game and he will play despite what is yelled at him from the stands...Do you think that because of what you earn people have a right to treat you poorly? Criticise, yes- you and i agree on this- but to treat someone as though they aren't a human being, with scorn and vitriol- who has the right to do that? Commenting on what players earn is such an irrelevant discussion. The game is what the game is- market forces determine what clubs earn and what players earn- and this is governed by the AFL. You draft players on potential- most kids drafted last 3-4 years- thats it... Earning a 6 figure salary has little to do with developing into an elite player. Brent is earning his fair % of dollars as dictated by the system he was drafted into. The only thing that is going to help Brent is support, and time to develop his game at a level where there is less pressure involved. If these things don't work, then the natural cycle of AFL life will take it's toll at some point in the future.



Would you call Brent a spud to his face?

Roddy, we will not agree on this, so you have your opinion and I have mine. And of course I have empathy for him, but my point is he is NOT AFL standard. And you are saying that he was thrown in the deep end at the age of 20, 2, 3 years later has not made any improvement.???

I keep hearing from supporters, that our rucks are sh.t blah blah blah, So seeing our ruck division is so poor, what do we have to lose and give the Lowdens and Grimleys a chance to show something. I can say they cant do any worse than Renouf at the moment.

My point is IF Lowden, Grimley or Bailey were fit or ready to play, Renouf would NOT get a look in. Its as simple as that!

 

[realhawk]

I think its a blight on our coaching staff that in 5 years we have not been able to teach Renouf how to kick a football.

Correct, coaches these days are so occupied with complicated gameplans and all sorts of sports science bullsh*t, that they have taken their eyes off the fact that doing the basics to the highest level possible generally will win the day. Many players dont have normal jobs outside of football so they should have plenty of time to get their skill perfected, Renouf should be out kicking the ball for hours every day but some delusional sports scientist at the club probably forbids it saying he will be putting to much stress on his legs, give me a break ,if pro golfers and tennis players can hit balls for 6 hours a day surely Renouf can get out in a park for a few hours every day to improve his kicking because at the moment its a joke for a professional footballer to have his lack of disposal skills and an absolute indictment on the coaching panel at Hawthorn, the same goes for birchall and his inability to kick on his right foot, talk about being one sided and every opposition player knows it, if these guys are true professionals the must overcome these weaknesses. end rant.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

Correct, coaches these days are so occupied with complicated gameplans and all sorts of sports science bullsh*t, that they have taken their eyes off the fact that doing the basics to the highest level possible generally will win the day. Many players dont have normal jobs outside of football so they should have plenty of time to get their skill perfected, Renouf should be out kicking the ball for hours every day but some delusional sports scientist at the club probably forbids it saying he will be putting to much stress on his legs, give me a break ,if pro golfers and tennis players can hit balls for 6 hours a day surely Renouf can get out in a park for a few hours every day to improve his kicking because at the moment its a joke for a professional footballer to have his lack of disposal skills and an absolute indictment on the coaching panel at Hawthorn, the same goes for birchall and his inability to kick on his right foot, talk about being one sided and every opposition player knows it, if these guys are true professionals the must overcome these weaknesses. end rant.

I am really surprised that we drafted him to be honest given there is such a fundamental issue with his game. I know we were attracted to his speed and running ability and thought we could improve his kicking but surely we could have found a safer prospect than him out there in the football world. His kicking is just terrible and the saddest part is that it has improved a little bit.

What $hits me the most is that our blokes still dont run past him for the easy handball especially when he is lining up for goal. Now that is dumb football.

 

[Hawker_Ant]

Renouf is still relatively young for a ruckman. What disappoints me is that he hasn't shown much of the improvement I would have hoped for over the last year or so.

I don't know him, but I suspect he's not the brightest light on the planet (apologies if I'm wrong). Doesn't think at lightning speed. Which may explain his kicking: like a dinosaur, takes time for the nerve impulses to get all the way down to the legs/feet. Maybe he should use the Hudson theory of booting the ball... hunch down and hold it a knee-level to minimize the drop of the ball.

He's the best ruck option we have. Competent, but not much more than that as yet. Still, I think he's better than Hale, who I think is little more than an annoyance/neutralizing factor. The Great White Hope, Large Max, is still building up his fitness. Lowden is improving, but still a while to go. Taylor had to go, I believe he never really recovered from the leg break that was close to the ankle (breaks nearer to the middle of the bone are much easier to heal).

I know nothing of Paul Johnson. Being dropped from the Melbourne list doesn't say much for him. Maybe should have retained Skippy, but I think he thought he had a gig elsewhere that didn't eventuate.

 

[TAITA]

hi guys.
This thread has hit such a raw nerve with me i registered on this site just so i could put my 2 cents worth in on this topic. I have never posted before up until now.

Hawkheart...No we won a premiership with Robbie Cambell in the ruck!!!Renouf was on the bench

Hawkheart..No we won a premiership with Robbie Campbell in the ruck,Renouf was on the bench for the whole year.At best provided a breather for Campbell. Like i said i think the importance of Robbie Campbell during that year is well and truly under rated.

Perhaps that raw nerve affected your memory..........but don't let little old me and your rewriting of history get in the way of your rant brother.

Simon Taylor by the way.

If you ever feel short of a Renouf (french, hmmmmmm....... surrender monkey) insert a Taylor (much safer).

 

[Rev08]

Roddy, we will not agree on this, so you have your opinion and I have mine. And of course I have empathy for him, but my point is he is NOT AFL standard. And you are saying that he was thrown in the deep end at the age of 20, 2, 3 years later has not made any improvement.???

I keep hearing from supporters, that our rucks are sh.t blah blah blah, So seeing our ruck division is so poor, what do we have to lose and give the Lowdens and Grimleys a chance to show something. I can say they cant do any worse than Renouf at the moment.

My point is IF Lowden, Grimley or Bailey were fit or ready to play, Renouf would NOT get a look in. Its as simple as that!

If the roles were reversed and it was Lowden or Grimley playing seniors, while Renouf was developing at Box Hill, then you would be slagging Lowden/Grimley off as not being up to AFL standard and telling us all that this young bloke at Box Hill by the name of Renouf is the answer.

The fact is we have a very young list of ruckmen aside from Hale. So no matter who we put in there, they are going to make plenty of mistakes.

For mine, I would just like to see Renouf think a bit more about his footy. That would eliminate the cheap free kicks and handballs to opposition players running past.

 

[Slattery_20]

Nup. St Kilda (Ben McEvoy, who will be ok, Gardiner who's done, Kosi, and nothing not even kids) or the Suns (Josh Fraser and a bunch of kids).

Not the best around, but Renouf's at least a decent competitor who generally makes the other bloke earn it, and Hale is decent as well. And kids. Bailey as a wildcard.

 

[Taskmaster]

If the roles were reversed and it was Lowden or Grimley playing seniors, while Renouf was developing at Box Hill, then you would be slagging Lowden/Grimley off as not being up to AFL standard and telling us all that this young bloke at Box Hill by the name of Renouf is the answer.

The fact is we have a very young list of ruckmen aside from Hale. So no matter who we put in there, they are going to make plenty of mistakes.

For mine, I would just like to see Renouf think a bit more about his footy. That would eliminate the cheap free kicks and handballs to opposition players running past.

Obviously! You would know.

The harsh reality is that he has not made any improvement over the last 4 years! Its not about making mistakes, its about being able to play the game at the highest level and improving each year (which he has not done.)

Anyways its only 1 persons opinion, if you all think that he is the one to take us forward and Im too harsh on him then I'll jump on the Renouf train. But sadly I disagree with you as I dont ever see him ever competing against the big boys, the ruckman who actually know how to play the game.......Jolly, Sandilands, Jamar, Cox, Ottens, Kruzer just to name a few.

 

[Slattery_20]

Jamar wasn't much until last year. Improved tenfold in his 7th or 8th season. David Hille similar in 2008. Jolly didn't do much until he moved to Sydney when he was abuot Renouf's age now.

That cliche about bigmen taking time...

 

[Rioli magic]

The harsh reality is that he has not made any improvement over the last 4 years! Its not about making mistakes, its about being able to play the game at the highest level and improving each year (which he has not done.)

This is just horseshit, not even close to reality.

 

[Ram-Man]

Gold Coast is worse than us ... Renouf will get better and Hale is good.

 

[Cynic]

Gold Coast is worse than us ... Renouf will get better and Hale is good.

Zac Smith is already a better ruck than the rest of ours combined.

 

[shelduck]

Perhaps that raw nerve affected your memory..........but don't let little old me and your rewriting of history get in the way of your rant brother.

Simon Taylor by the way.

If you ever feel short of a Renouf (french, hmmmmmm....... surrender monkey) insert a Taylor (much safer).

yes well done Taita whole year was a mistake, obviously Simon Taylor played the whole year Renouf came in during the finals. Was that a french lesson brother? made a hell of alot of scense, thanks. If you can put your bong down long enough for your own french lesson then votre un branleur.

 

[Davo23]

Jamar wasn't much until last year. Improved tenfold in his 7th or 8th season. David Hille similar in 2008. Jolly didn't do much until he moved to Sydney when he was abuot Renouf's age now.

That cliche about bigmen taking time...

So, it takes an Essendon supporter to get us back to reality?

The sad sacks on this site should leave Renouf alone.

1. Ruckman take time to mature: usually after the age of 24 +

2. Renouf has been thrown in at the deep end, and had a reasonable year in 2010, despite us not having a second ruckman most of the year.

3. Renouf has been a good competitor. He contests hard, doesn't give the other ruckman any easy hitouts, takes a few marks and is reasonably fit and fast. He'simproving all the time.

The best pure ruckmen play for the Eagles and the Dockers. Their ruckmen dominate the ruck, but would those teams be happy with their team's progress over the last 5 years?



.

 

[lickmerocks]

Suzie is an aussie battler.

His skills are ordinary but the worrying sign for me more than anything is that I have heard coaches form our club interviewed on radio saying he can rest up forward and kick a goal.

You cant be flipping serious.

has anyone form the club actually tried to improve his technique? Whats Rath doing as the high performance coach. Suzie couldnt hit the side of a barn with his ball drop.

His technique is a mix of James Manson and John Ironmonger so dont feed us the "he can go forward and kick a goal line".

I want Suzie to be competitive in the ruck duels and not give away dumb asss free kicks every game he plays especially against young spuds. When he takes a mark dish it off to a player wearing the brown and gold by hand and everyone will be happy.

 

[The Kipster]

^^^^^ Very true LMR, 100%!

Renouf was absolutely woeful tonight. Having said that, one game doesn't make a season and I'm sure he will bounce back.

x 2...he cost us goals along with Bruce and WhiteX

 

[Ram-Man]

Zac Smith is already a better ruck than the rest of ours combined.

Rubbish - he is an exciting prospect that is all -- as is Lowden, as is Grimley.

 

[DannyJ]

Renouf is quite ordinary to be your number 1 ruckman. Would rather Smith than him without seeing Smith and just hearing the raps on him.

Lowden is a prospect but the way we develop players who knows if he will make it. Schoenmakers had massive raps on him at the start of 2009 its now 2011 and he looks clueless (worse than when we drafted him) out on the field.

Grimley is playing VFL ressies year 2 in the system. Ordinary.