Opinion Don Pyke general discussion

[hey shorty]

DMac has never got within a mile of 38 touches at both AFL and SANFL level. The kid finds the ball. Anyway, I doubt we'll find out.

He has done, when he was dropped last year he immediately went back and was in the best 3 on the field, as he should be.

I hope we find out

 

[feenix67]

He has done, when he was dropped last year he immediately went back and was in the best 3 on the field, as he should be.

I hope we find out

Not with 38 touches.

 

[hey shorty]

Not with 38 touches.

When you're an inside mid with the best ruck in the league shoving it down your throat so you should.

 

[Scorpus]

DMac has never got within a mile of 38 touches at both AFL and SANFL level. The kid finds the ball. Anyway, I doubt we'll find out.

Wigg is as soft as Mackay except Mackay actually tries to tackle. Wigg just jogs around pretending he's covering space.

 

[MRB37]

You'd think there's a fair bit going on in Harrison's head when he can't get a game in front of DMac after a 38 touch game. He'll be asking for a trade at season's end, I'm sure of it.

He's probably regretting not asking for one last year like he originally wanted to.

 

[feenix67]

Wigg is as soft as Mackay except Mackay actually tries to tackle. Wigg just jogs around pretending he's covering space.

You haven't seen enough of him, with all due respect. I'd be disinterested too, if I spent 3 years on a list racking up numbers and not getting a look in. He should have been given a run during our weak post bye rounds last year.

 

[mattymac]

Not that it would be popular, but if we want a defensive forward to run with their playmaker, Menzel is the man.

He's actually a great fit for this role

 

[Scorpus]

You haven't seen enough of him, with all due respect. I'd be disinterested too, if I spent 3 years on a list racking up numbers and not getting a look in. He should have been given a run during our weak post bye rounds last year.

Well I have seen him play (on TV) about 6-7 times this year, and it's the same situation every time. Gets the ball, kicks it (no laser boot) and then jogs around applying weak pressure.

Sure, he definitely should have played over Van Berlo last year. But if he wants to be an elite player, he shouldn't be dropping his head and giving up after he's snubbed once or twice. That's weak, loser, defeatist attitude. Based on that attitude alone I wouldn't be giving him a game, even if you don't look at the way he plays.

 

[feenix67]

Well I have seen him play (on TV) about 6-7 times this year, and it's the same situation every time. Gets the ball, kicks it (no laser boot) and then jogs around applying weak pressure.

Sure, he definitely should have played over Van Berlo last year. But if he wants to be an elite player, he shouldn't be dropping his head and giving up after he's snubbed once or twice. That's weak, loser, defeatist attitude. Based on that attitude alone I wouldn't be giving him a game, even if you don't look at the way he plays.

Snubbed once or twice? We're pissing his AFL career away. He's performed well enough to have been given opportunity. We have a duty of care to these lads we draft, because non selection means they're not exposed at the highest level, their value doesn't increase and their career is cut short. If he was spudding it up like say H Dear, then it would be on him. But he's doing enough, and has a right to be thinking about his future and pissed off with the club that drafted him.

 

[MRB37]

He's actually a great fit for this role

Knight will get the role next week.

 

[Scorpus]

Snubbed once or twice? We're pissing his AFL career away. He's performed well enough to have been given opportunity. We have a duty of care to these lads we draft, because non selection means they're not exposed at the highest level, their value doesn't increase and their career is cut short. If he was spudding it up like say H Dear, then it would be on him. But he's doing enough, and has a right to be thinking about his future and pissed off with the club that drafted him.

Okay well let's say that Wigg was snubbed in every match last year and we really should have given him a shot. What should he have done this year? Lifted his game to the point where, like someone such as Greenwood, his form was undeniably strong over many weeks.

Instead he rocked up to the pre-season games and kicked himself, quite literally, out of contention. Then he went back to the SANFL and performed reasonably, but let's be honest, he's been pretty inconsistent and only played one standout game where he had 38 touches. His other games in the SANFL were:

1. 22 touches (4 contested), 5 inside 50s, 2 clearances, 8 tackles, 1 goal
2. 21 touches, 4 rebound 50s, 2 clearances, 5 tackles
3. 30 touches, 2 tackles, 4 clearances, 7 inside 50s
4. 21 touches, 3 tackles, 1 clearance, 6 inside 50s, 1 goal 3 behinds
5. 28 touches, 0 tackles, 2 clearances, 6 inside 50s

Compare that to Greenwood who was actually banging the door down:

1. 27 touches, 9 tackles, 10 clearances, 4 inside 50s
2. 25 touches, 8 tackles, 5 clearances
3. 19 touches, 8 tackles, 3 clearances, 2 inside 50s, 2 goals
4. 27 touches, 9 tackles, 11 clearances, 3 inside 50s
5. 22 touches, 8 tackles, 8 clearances, 7 inside 50s, 1 goal

He's not playing badly by any means, but he's looking very much like a SANFL-quality player rather than someone who will perform in the AFL. I don't even think he's in the "too good for SANFL, not good enough for AFL" category like Mitch Grigg just yet.

 

[mattymac]

Knight will get the role next week.

Knight should come in for Otten right now because we are too tall.

Hopefully not long after the bye McGovern comes back. Then Knight can take Douglas' spot on a HFF forever more. Sick of Douglas donning the invisibility cloak in big games

 

[feenix67]

Okay well let's say that Wigg was snubbed in every match last year and we really should have given him a shot. What should he have done this year? Lifted his game to the point where, like someone such as Greenwood, his form was undeniably strong over many weeks.

Instead he rocked up to the pre-season games and kicked himself, quite literally, out of contention. Then he went back to the SANFL and performed reasonably, but let's be honest, he's been pretty inconsistent and only played one standout game where he had 38 touches. His other games in the SANFL were:

1. 22 touches (4 contested), 5 inside 50s, 2 clearances, 8 tackles, 1 goal
2. 21 touches, 4 rebound 50s, 2 clearances, 5 tackles
3. 30 touches, 2 tackles, 4 clearances, 7 inside 50s
4. 21 touches, 3 tackles, 1 clearance, 6 inside 50s, 1 goal 3 behinds
5. 28 touches, 0 tackles, 2 clearances, 6 inside 50s

Compare that to Greenwood who was actually banging the door down:

1. 27 touches, 9 tackles, 10 clearances, 4 inside 50s
2. 25 touches, 8 tackles, 5 clearances
3. 19 touches, 8 tackles, 3 clearances, 2 inside 50s, 2 goals
4. 27 touches, 9 tackles, 11 clearances, 3 inside 50s
5. 22 touches, 8 tackles, 8 clearances, 7 inside 50s, 1 goal

He's not playing badly by any means, but he's looking very much like a SANFL-quality player rather than someone who will perform in the AFL. I don't even think he's in the "too good for SANFL, not good enough for AFL" category like Mitch Grigg just yet.

Mate did you do the maths on those numbers? They're not that far apart. Given Hugh is more inside than Wigg, you'd expect those CP and clearance number differentials, but total disposals are pretty similar. That said, I think Greenwood has been the better player, but we played the Gooch ahead of Wigg on far inferior form. Given the history, that selection would have done my head in as a player. He's not even getting a mention in the emergency lists now is he?

 

[Scorpus]

Mate did you do the maths on those numbers? They're not that far apart. Given Hugh is more inside than Wigg, you'd expect those CP and clearance number differentials, but total disposals are pretty similar. That said, I think Greenwood has been the better player, but we played the Gooch ahead of Wigg on far inferior form. Given the history, that selection would have done my head in as a player. He's not even getting a mention in the emergency lists now is he?

Well the average numbers look a bit like this outside of Wigg's 38 touch superstar performance:

Clearances: Greenwood 7.4, Wigg 2.2
Tackles: Greenwood 8.4, Wigg 3.6
Inside 50s: Greenwood 3.4, Wigg 5.0
Disposals: Greenwood 24.0, Wigg 24.4
Kicking Efficiency: Greenwood 51%, Wigg 59%
Contested Possession Ratio: Greenwood 64%, Wigg 30%

What this tells me is Greenwood is playing inside midfield and Wigg is playing outside midfield, except Greenwood is nearly matching Wigg's outside numbers while obliterating him on the inside and in defensive work.

For Wigg to really put his hand up, averaging 24 touches and 5 inside 50s at SANFL level with a 59% kicking efficiency as midfielder, particularly one that plays outside, is probably not going to cut it.

I agree I'm not entirely sure why they played Gallucci, though I think Gallucci will be a far superior player, and that's probably had something to do with it.

 

[feenix67]

Well the average numbers look a bit like this outside of Wigg's 38 touch superstar performance:

Clearances: Greenwood 7.4, Wigg 2.2
Tackles: Greenwood 8.4, Wigg 3.6
Inside 50s: Greenwood 3.4, Wigg 5.0
Disposals: Greenwood 24.0, Wigg 24.4
Kicking Efficiency: Greenwood 51%, Wigg 59%
Contested Possession Ratio: Greenwood 64%, Wigg 30%

What this tells me is Greenwood is playing inside midfield and Wigg is playing outside midfield, except Greenwood is nearly matching Wigg's outside numbers while obliterating him on the inside and in defensive work.

For Wigg to really put his hand up, averaging 24 touches and 5 inside 50s at SANFL level with a 59% kicking efficiency as midfielder, particularly one that plays outside, is probably not going to cut it.

I agree I'm not entirely sure why they played Gallucci, though I think Gallucci will be a far superior player, and that's probably had something to do with it.

That's climate change levels of data manipulation haha... you can't just dismiss his 38 touch game to suit your argument.

 

[Scorpus]

That's climate change levels of data manipulation haha... you can't just dismiss his 38 touch game to suit your argument.

Okay sure. Not that it makes a big difference:

Clearances: Greenwood 7.4, Wigg 4.0
Tackles: Greenwood 8.4, Wigg 3.8
Inside 50s: Greenwood 3.4, Wigg 5.7
Disposals: Greenwood 24.0, Wigg 26.6
Kicking Efficiency: Greenwood 51%, Wigg 59%
Contested Possession Ratio: Greenwood 64%, Wigg 30%

The last two stats had already factored in his big touch game

Whether I do or don't factor in his 38 touch game doesn't change my argument at all.

 

[feenix67]

Okay sure. Not that it makes a big difference:

Clearances: Greenwood 7.4, Wigg 4.0
Tackles: Greenwood 8.4, Wigg 3.8
Inside 50s: Greenwood 3.4, Wigg 5.7
Disposals: Greenwood 24.0, Wigg 26.6
Kicking Efficiency: Greenwood 51%, Wigg 59%
Contested Possession Ratio: Greenwood 64%, Wigg 30%

The last two stats had already factored in his big touch game

Whether I do or don't factor in his 38 touch game doesn't change my argument at all.

Well it does, because it shows they are different players playing different roles, and both doing so effectively.

A better comparison would be Wigg and Gooch.

 

[Apsaalooke]

I was worried Pykey would be another Neil Craig but I didn't realise he would be an actual clone. It's depressing.

I see we're not calling him the Maestro any more.

 

[Scorpus]

Well it does, because it shows they are different players playing different roles, and both doing so effectively.

A better comparison would be Wigg and Gooch.

How is an outside midfielder kicking only slightly better than Greenwood playing their role "effectively"? Menzel goes at 85+% kicking efficiency in the SANFL from a similar contested possession ratio.

Anyway, here's Gallucci's stats:

Clearances: 2.5
Tackles: 4.25
Inside 50s: 3.0
Disposals: 15.0
Kicking Efficiency: 65%
Contested Ratio: 49%

 

[skoobydoo]

I disagree with this. I thought the players actually cracked in pretty hard but under pressure we did what we have been doing for years. We hacked haphazardly from the contest and ultimately conceded pressureless exits to Geelong once they'd cleared the congestion. We got the ball forward, but without precision we're furqued when it hits the deck. The next bit of pain is that we're a midfielder short so that we can play an extra useless immobile tall who looks great when it's us streaming forward under no pressure but is utterly worthless when we're in hack forward mode.

MAKE NO MISTAKE, THIS IS NOT ON THE PLAYERS ANYWHERE NEAR AS MUCH AS IT IS ON THE COACHES.

'Pressure less exits'.......yes, I like that.

 

[feenix67]

How is an outside midfielder kicking only slightly better than Greenwood playing their role "effectively"? Menzel goes at 85+% kicking efficiency in the SANFL from a similar contested possession ratio.

Anyway, here's Gallucci's stats:

Clearances: 2.5
Tackles: 4.25
Inside 50s: 3.0
Disposals: 15.0
Kicking Efficiency: 65%
Contested Ratio: 49%

I rest my case.

 

[skoobydoo]

You are wrong. Pyke's assessment is correct.

Every other effort, ball-winning stat was tied. Clearances tackles one percenters etc.

IMO they had more contested possessions because they handballed out of congestion, while we slammed it on the boot at the first opportunity.

Geelong retained possession with handballs and short kicks, while we kicked quickly down the line.

The result was that they had vastly more uncontested possessions and time in possession.

Because of that, and some defensive breakdowns, their attacks were effective and ours weren't.

At least Pyke can see the reason for the loss. Let's see if he can come up with a response.

Inclined to agree. Geelong retained possession with handball etc because with structure, they could.
We on the other hand had nothing structurally and had to hack kick whatever. They had us strangled,snuffed,locked, bundled and with no structural outlet there it is no other result than a dropping off of intensity at the contest. Method/structure first.

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

Until Pyke puts a permanent line through Mackay's name, he's a failure of a coach in my eyes.

 

[hey shorty]

I rest my case.

Wasn't much of one to rest.

Pretty much like people's argument 'Watch Grigg go to another AFL club and be a contributor'. Nope didn't happen. Even Kerridge can't get a look in this year, though that may have a bit to do with his previous club not being GWS

 

[Scorpus]

I rest my case.

There is a point that Gallucci's SANFL stats aren't as good as Wigg's this year.

But he's simply not banging the door down for a midfielder, and I'd much rather pull a Milera/McGovern and back in our high-end talent in an AFL system because their room for growth is far superior.

Wigg might elevate himself to Mitch Grigg level in the AFL. Do we really need to waste 20 AFL games on someone who is performing worse than Grigg was in the SANFL? Or should we back our highly talented young player and see how they perform instead?