Eagles the greatest?

[Back One Out]

Eagles are up with the best of the AFL era no doubt. And it shouldn’t be forgotten that, to win flags, they usually have to beat Vic clubs on their home ground.

Yeah nah

The MCG was a neutral venue yesterday, as it is for every Grand Final.

The Pies had a slight edge in crowd support, but the Eagles had 25,000-30,000 people barracking for them and they made plenty of noise.
It was nothing like the home ground advantage which West Coast enjoyed in their 2 lead-up finals in front of partisan 60k crowds.

So with the home ground advantage removed for Grand Finals, it's really just the travelling factor and players sleeping in a hotel bed.
The 1 hour flights between Adelaide/Melbourne and Sydney/Melbourne are a non-issue. Same time zones. Bugger all fatigue involved.

The 3 hour flight between Perth and Melbourne is definitely an issue which needs to be overcome and planned for. West Coast make the long trip east 10 times every year. The WA clubs are the AFL's travelling teams. They are well-accustomed to the extra travelling. Their opponents usually make the long trip west just once or twice a year. So once again, the disadvantage experienced by West Coast pales in comparison with their opponents who must travel to Perth.

I've seen people make arguments about the fatigue suffered by the Eagles from the accumulated travel demands. (The lack of 300 game players, etc.) But I'm not convinced about this. Professional sportsmen from USA and Europe travel WAY MORE than AFL footballers from WA and they don't seem to have any problems with the constant long distance travel.

 

[joe444]

Do you get a prize for it?

If not, I don't care.

 

[saints_333]

I've made a bit of a list based on what I think sums up where teams sit when it comes to success since 1990.
I've totalled the number of times a team has made the 8, Grand Finals appearances, top 4 appearances and given 4 points for each Grand Final win and here is the list I have come up with


1. West Coast- 56 points
2. Hawthorn- 55 points
3. Geelong- 54 points
4. Sydney- 44 points
5. Collingwood- 36 points
6. Essendon- 34 points
7. North Melbourne- 34 points
8. Brisbane- 32 points
9. Adelaide- 32 points
10. Western Bulldogs- 24 points
11. Carlton- 23 points
12. Port Adelaide- 21 points
13. St.Kilda- 21 points
14. Richmond- 16 points
15. Melbourne- 14 points
16. Fremantle- 11 points
17. GWS- 5 points
18. Gold Coast- 0 points

(*Essendon is above North due to GF appearances. *Brisbane is above Adelaide due to GF wins.)

Some may argue that Hawthorn deserve to be top but if you take into account other results then West Coast come in on top but it's very very close and Geelong is pretty much there with them. Perhaps Brisbane and Richmond could be further up given Richmond having actually won a final and Brisbane's 3 peat but to be honest both of these teams have had shocking runs outside of these.

 

[Mr B]

I’d love for it to be the Eagles, and you can probably juggle stats to make it look that way, but given the choice I’d prefer to have Hawthorn’s record.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Mr B]

Hey, I need t change my avatar.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[TGFC]

Yeah nah

The MCG was a neutral venue yesterday, as it is for every Grand Final.

The Pies had a slight edge in crowd support, but the Eagles had 25,000-30,000 people barracking for them and they made plenty of noise.
It was nothing like the home ground advantage which West Coast enjoyed in their 2 lead-up finals in front of partisan 60k crowds.

So with the home ground advantage removed for Grand Finals, it's really just the travelling factor and players sleeping in a hotel bed.
The 1 hour flights between Adelaide/Melbourne and Sydney/Melbourne are a non-issue. Same time zones. Bugger all fatigue involved.

The 3 hour flight between Perth and Melbourne is definitely an issue which needs to be overcome and planned for. West Coast make the long trip east 10 times every year. The WA clubs are the AFL's travelling teams. They are well-accustomed to the extra travelling. Their opponents usually make the long trip west just once or twice a year. So once again, the disadvantage experienced by West Coast pales in comparison with their opponents who must travel to Perth.

I've seen people make arguments about the fatigue suffered by the Eagles from the accumulated travel demands. (The lack of 300 game players, etc.) But I'm not convinced about this. Professional sportsmen from USA and Europe travel WAY MORE than AFL footballers from WA and they don't seem to have any problems with the constant long distance travel.

You lost me at neutral. From there it was a long post i had to scroll past

 

[wce4premiership]

Yeah nah

The MCG was a neutral venue yesterday, as it is for every Grand Final.

The MCG was Collingwood's home ground ie: not neutral.

We won despite this, we were up against it all game, especially from the get go. Another ground we win more comfortably.

 

[HTT]

Because that's when the VFL officially became the AFL.

From a competitive perspective, 1989 is identical to 1990. Why draw the line there?

 

[Back One Out]

You lost me at neutral. From there it was a long post i had to scroll past

tl;dr

Non-Vic teams have great support at the MCG on Grand Final day. This makes it a fairly neutral venue - much more so than finals played in Perth and Adelaide.

Premiership teams such as West Coast 1992/1994/2018, Brisbane 2001/2002/2003, Adelaide 1997/1998 and Sydney 2012 didn't need to make weak excuses and embarrass themselves like the bleating Crows fans did after the 2017 Grand Final debacle.

 

[Back One Out]

The MCG was Collingwood's home ground ie: not neutral.

No. It's Collingwood's home ground when their members are able to attend.

The GF ticketing arrangements mean that competing clubs each receive 20,000 seats for their members
This means about 40,000 Collingwood supporters were unable to attend the game like they would if it was a home final.

• Each club receives 20,000 seats for their members
• Probably another 5,000 from each club who pay for a corporate package or scalped ticket
• Collingwood would have another 30,000 fans in the MCC and AFL members sections
• Approximately 20,000 neutrals in attendance - half of them barracking for Pies & Eagles

Yesterday's crowd was 60-30 in Collingwood's favour with 10,000 fence-sitters who are there for the event

Different to 59-1 advantage which the Eagles had vs Melbourne

We won despite this, we were up against it all game, especially from the get go.

Bullshit. You're giving zero credit to the opposition. Collingwood played great footy in the 1st quarter. It wasn't because of the ground or the crowd or the umpires. The players did it on their own.

West Coast wrested control of the game and outplayed the Pies over the next 3 quarters, but they failed to capitalise on their scoring chances and Collingwood took most of theirs. That's why the game was so close. Not because of the "home ground". You weren't "up against it." The Eagles had the Pies on the rack. They just needed to kick straighter for goal and stop dropping chest marks in their forward line

Another ground we win more comfortably.

Bullshit. West Coast played Collingwood 3 weeks ago at their home fortress and they did not win it comfortably. That was another close game where Collingwood led West Coast, but the Eagles outworked the Pies over the last 40 minutes to win.

 

[Jacob1996]

Many didn't return

The wafl was raided by the vfl before west coast got their picks.

The wafl hadn’t been raided by 87 that’s bullshit, by 95 it well and truly had been

 

[windyhill]

If it is injections, they can’t count to one.

I can and I can't ! Positive tests, richmond is the one bit, Essendon is the 0 bit.

 

[Scotland]

Is a final at Kardinia Park a neutral venue if the crowd is 50/50?

I mean Geelong play there 7 or 8 times a year and every other team at once most. But if it's a final with tickets available to both competing club members then it's a neutral venue, right?

 

[Back One Out]

Is a final at Kardinia Park a neutral venue if the crowd is 50/50? I mean Geelong play there 7 or 8 times a year and every other team at once most. But if it's a final with tickets available to both competing club members then it's a neutral venue, right?

1. That never happens, so it's a silly example. And if it did, then yes, Geelong's home crowd advantage would be somewhat minimised, just as West Coast's home advantage at Optus Stadium would be minimised if there were 20,000 Pie fans in attendance.

2. Kardinia Park is a peculiar-shaped ground, way narrower than every other ground. Much like the SCG, the odd dimensions give the home team an advantage because they tailor a specific game-plan suited to the ground and some visiting teams don't cope well with that at all. West Coast's new home ground is similar to the MCG, yeah? Same size and shape?

3. Geelong train at Kardinia Park. So it really is their HOME ground. Collingwood don't train at the MCG. They train at Olympic Park.

 

[Jacob1996]

Many didn't return

The wafl was raided by the vfl before west coast got their picks.

Who in the 92 team wasn’t west Aussie, half your team were freo boys and the other half were Claremont boys pretty Much, if the two teams entered and the same time if would of been very different, just count yourselves lucky that the vfl was broke and needed you.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Hawks have been the most successful since 2008 but from 91 until then they were an absolute basket case. That period included the near merge with Melbourne.
For me Geelong are the best team since the AFL became a national game. Besides the period between 98 and 03 Geelong have been a consistently good team. 90’s : Along with North the best team during that period. 00’s : Won two flags and carried the greatest teams we tag late in that decade.
10’s Won in 11 and have been competing every year of the decade.
Cats for me. Blanket over a few others.

 

[Scotland]

A) that never happens, so it's a silly example

B) Kardinia Park is a peculiar shaped ground, way narrower than every other ground. Much like the SCG, the odd dimensions give the home team an advantage because they tailor a specific game-plan suited to the ground and some (not all) visiting teams don't cope well with that at all.

C) Geelong train at Kardinia Park. So it really is their HOME ground. Collingwood don't train at the MCG. They train at Olympic Park.

A) It happened in 2013. Clubs play finals at Docklands too, well at least they used to. Were you happy when Hawthorn played Adelaide there in 2007?

B) For teams who play at KP, the SCG, Subiaco... the MCG is a an unfamiliar, peculiar shaped ground. West Coast played twice at the MCG all year, as many times as a few clubs visited Optus Stadium. You can argue that every team should have a field the size and dimensions of the MCG but that's often not practical.

C) Back in 2010 Collingwood played 7 H&A games in a row at the MCG leading into the finals, then played 2 finals there leading into the GF and replay. I reckon they have a reasonable familiarity with the venue. This year they played there 14 times pre finals.

Neutral venue doesn't just mean 50/50 crowd.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Hawks have been the most successful since 2008 but from 91 until then they were an absolute basket case. That period included the near merge with Melbourne.
For me Geelong are the best team since the AFL became a national game. Besides the period between 98 and 03 Geelong have been a consistently good team. 90’s : Along with North the best team during that period. 00’s : Won two flags and carried the greatest teams we tag late in that decade.
10’s Won in 11 and have been competing every year of the decade.
Cats for me. Blanket over a few others.

Lost too many GFs to take that prize.

 

[windyhill]

In the comp since '87 and made the finals 22 times. Bloody impressive.

 

[Eagleboy68]

Who in the 92 team wasn’t west Aussie, half your team were freo boys and the other half were Claremont boys pretty Much, if the two teams entered and the same time if would of been very different, just count yourselves lucky that the vfl was broke and needed you.

Lol.

It doesn't matter who wasn't west Aussie.

What matters is if it was a state team there would have been way more better players that were still running around in Victorian teams.
If all the west sissies did come over and we had first pick of the draft and were a real state team we would have won 5 flags in a row.

It matters not anyways. Gws had more compensation than Eagles did at the draft and they haven't won 2 flags in the first 8 years. It comes down to training and coaching, not talent. If a team doesn't play as a team they won't win.

Talk about luck, you're team is lucky we were so dominant otherwise you wouldn't exist.

 

[Eagleboy68]

The wafl hadn’t been raided by 87 that’s bullshit, by 95 it well and truly had been

Go look at history and you will find that the year the Eagles were able to draft from the wafl the Victorian clubs had first pick before the Eagles got the "leftovers"

That is fact.

 

[Eagleboy68]

tl;dr

Non-Vic teams have great support at the MCG on Grand Final day. This makes it a fairly neutral venue - much more so than finals played in Perth and Adelaide.

Yeah nah. Keep smoking the Victorian weed it's working.

You went from "neutral" to "fairly neutral"

You can't even convince yourself.

 

[Doss]

It is the official start of the AFL. Seems pretty relevant to me. I wish all stats were from 1990 on instead of worrying about how many consecutive games South Melbourne won at Lake Oval in comparison to Richmond's recent run at the MCG.

1987, 1988 and 1989 were absolutely no different to 1990 in terms of number of teams. The single difference in 1990 was a name change; a purely aesthetic measure in other words.

1987 or 1991 make far more sense as a measure than 1990.

 

[kranky al]

Yeah nah

The MCG was a neutral venue yesterday, as it is for every Grand Final.

The Pies had a slight edge in crowd support, but the Eagles had 25,000-30,000 people barracking for them and they made plenty of noise.
It was nothing like the home ground advantage which West Coast enjoyed in their 2 lead-up finals in front of partisan 60k crowds.

So with the home ground advantage removed for Grand Finals, it's really just the travelling factor and players sleeping in a hotel bed.
The 1 hour flights between Adelaide/Melbourne and Sydney/Melbourne are a non-issue. Same time zones. Bugger all fatigue involved.

The 3 hour flight between Perth and Melbourne is definitely an issue which needs to be overcome and planned for. West Coast make the long trip east 10 times every year. The WA clubs are the AFL's travelling teams. They are well-accustomed to the extra travelling. Their opponents usually make the long trip west just once or twice a year. So once again, the disadvantage experienced by West Coast pales in comparison with their opponents who must travel to Perth.

I've seen people make arguments about the fatigue suffered by the Eagles from the accumulated travel demands. (The lack of 300 game players, etc.) But I'm not convinced about this. Professional sportsmen from USA and Europe travel WAY MORE than AFL footballers from WA and they don't seem to have any problems with the constant long distance travel.

Cut and paste vics on travel


[ QUOTE="Jukesy85, post: 57057397, member: 174912"]Getting an extra two days break and Hawthorn having to fly back from Perth while we haven’t left Etihad since the 14th will be a huge advantage (I don’t even know why this was allowed in the fixturing in the first place).


But knowing us and having the advantage, we’ll probably screw it up and lose after such a promising few months. Absolutely have to win this to make finals so they better be fired up, don’t deserve to play finals if we can’t beat the Hawks[/QUOTE]



[ QUOTE="Guardian Hawk, post: 57057729, member: 8642"]Not sure it is that even. It looks to be the case on the ladder but Essendon now are not the same rabble from the start of the year.

A ladder of the last 10 weeks would actually have Essendon sitting on top of the ladder. Meanwhile, Hawthorn have only been beating the bottom teams lately (and even then losing to the likes of Brisbane at home).


Add to that your pace (Hawthorn's biggest kryptonite), 2 fewer days break and Hawthorn returning from Perth, Essendon deserve to be warm favourites.


Really hope we can win though as your mob is the only team I genuinely can't stand. I doubt there'll be any actual fights as no one will risk getting suspended at this time of the year.[/QUOTE]


[ QUOTE="MowShow, post: 57065321, member: 131541"]Trying to be optimistic but honestly can't see us getting within 5 goals of the bombers here..


I think our average form in recent times has been largely masked by our draw - i.e. recent big wins have people thinking we are playing at a higher level than we actually are, but they have been against freo, carlton, gold coast, the dogs etc. To be fair (from memory) the lions are the only team that has really got a hold of us this season. But my point is its pretty hard to get a read on our form.


On the other hand, the bombers have been really impressive lately. Aside from a couple of games without Fantasia they have looked hot. Sicily and Howe are 2 important players for us and coming off a 6 day break back from Perth, I can see them opening us up with their speed (which is an issue for us at the best of times).


Also can't see us being able to kick a winning score against the Bomber's defense, particularly with their style of play which will likely lead to them scoring in the ball park of 100.


Bombers by 38.[/QUOTE]


[ QUOTE="StillAtLarge, post: 57076992, member: 162586"]The only reason Essendon are favourites is because they'll have 2 days extra prep and didn't play in Perth last round. I dare say we would be slight favourites otherwise.

And no, I'm not getting my excuses in early. We don't appear to be carrying any crocked players and seemed to coast through the last quarter v freo with this game in mind so if we're good enough- we'll win.[/QUOTE]



[ QUOTE="Godzke, post: 57078655, member: 79677"]Players saw the difference after half time against Sydney when you lower the eyes when entering 50. Important we continue to look for the shorter lead up targets rather than kicking to a pack and hoping a small crumbs it. Particularly important against a team that ranks highly for i50s but lowly for clearances.


Extra two break and not flying back from Perth should mean we run out this game better than Hawthorn. Relatively dry conditions predicted, which also bodes in our favour.[/QUOTE]

 

[Scotland]

1987, 1988 and 1989 were absolutely no different to 1990 in terms of number of teams. The single difference in 1990 was a name change; a purely aesthetic measure in other words.

1987 or 1991 make far more sense as a measure than 1990.

This debate will never ever ever end. It's a function of the way the competition evolved. Sydney was an experiment. WC & Brisbane was to make money to keep VFL clubs afloat. Adelaide was the logical next step and by then everyone had accepted that the VFL was becoming the national comp. My team has been in since 1987 and has competed in a 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 team comp, with 22 and 20 game seasons, with a final 5, a final 6 and two different versions of a final 8. Doesn't mean 2018 'counts' and 1992 doesn't from our perspective.

But the fact remains there are 29 cups with 'AFL' engraved on them and 93 without. It's just how it is.

VFL 1989 vs AFL 1990 are identical in all ways except name, but 1990 is still a valid comparison point for the sake of breeze shooting.