Coach Fages and the coaching group

[3KZ is Football]

So, you just want the coach to blame 1 player for our 4-point GF loss. As long as it is not Lester of course.

Kiddy was runner up in the Norm Smith. you may as well have a go at him too.
Kiddy only had 1 disposal in the 3rd and that kick was smothered. Then only 3 in the last all kicks.

Every player would have tried to give their all on the day.
After all they just spent 6 months of hard work getting to this position.
Sometimes it just does not work out as planned with us complex humans.

It is a long and draining season to get to the GF and the Pies handled the day better than the Lions.

It has been said. Coleman needs to get fitter. He needs to be able to run games out, but that is a team and therefore a coaching issue.

Just look at Scott Pendlebury, 35 year old and he had 11 disposals in the last quarter and managed 3 tackles. In the last quarter, Pendlebury had more disposals than Rayner, Wilmot, Fletcher, Hipwood, Gardiner, Robertson and McCarthy COMBINED. Between them, those 7 players had 10 disposals. This, with a Grand Final in the balance. It isn’t possible to blame ONE player, but we can’t walk away from understanding where we fell down. It is not like we haven’t all witnessed our last quarter fade outs this year.

It is a wonder we got so close. That we did is testament to the hard work of another group of players who slogged their guts out in the last trying to get us over the line. We should recognise the heroes of that last quarter, Andrews, McKenna, Lester, Daniher, Zorko, Neale and Dunkley, because they nearly got us there.

 

[Mighty Lions]

It has been said. Coleman needs to get fitter. He needs to be able to run games out, but that is a team and therefore a coaching issue.

Just look at Scott Pendlebury, 35 year old and he had 11 disposals in the last quarter and managed 3 tackles. In the last quarter, Pendlebury had more disposals than Rayner, Wilmot, Fletcher, Hipwood, Gardiner, Robertson and McCarthy COMBINED. Between them, those 7 players had 10 disposals. This, with a Grand Final in the balance. It isn’t possible to blame ONE player, but we can’t walk away from understanding where we fell down. It is not like we haven’t all witnessed our last quarter fade outs this year.

It is a wonder we got so close. That we did is testament to the hard work of another group of players who slogged their guts out in the last trying to get us over the line. We should recognise the heroes of that last quarter, Andrews, McKenna, Lester, Daniher, Zorko, Neale and Dunkley, because they nearly got us there.

The ones that didnt get many touches also slogged their guts out but for many reasons just didnt get their hands on the ball...you claim to have played plenty of footy in your time so you should know better than to say crap like that. Grand Finals in anyones footy career are special & if you think the 22 didnt give it their all in this one you are wrong.
We got so close because we never gave up. ALL the players were spent when the final siren went they were all devastated by the loss. Collingwood played a better game and deserved the win but to single out that group of players above because of their disposal count is not summarising their game of footy accurately.

 

[KissKiss]

The ones that didnt get many touches also slogged their guts out but for many reasons just didnt get their hands on the ball...you claim to have played plenty of footy in your time so you should know better than to say crap like that. Grand Finals in anyones footy career are special & if you think the 22 didnt give it their all in this one you are wrong.
We got so close because we never gave up. ALL the players were spent when the final siren went and they were all devastated by the loss. Collingwood played a better game and deserved the win but to single out that group of players above because of their disposal count is not summarising their game of footy accurately.

I agree with you on possession counts are not the main thing to be counted, especially for guys whose role is often not a big ball winner. Ie I would be incredibly happy if a defender like Gardiner didnt get a single possession as the team completely shut down the opposition and it never went near his opponent.

And I have no doubt our team was completely spent and gave it their all in the game.

But I do agree that we are not the fittest team in terms of running capability. Other teams like Collingwood do seem to run games a bit better. We can see this in a few different stats like sprints and distance covered, etc. Clearly its not been the major focus of our game plan this year to be the hardest running team in the comp. And thats fine again we have been very successful with our current plan.

But in a review of the year and seeing what we could do better next year, I think we could look to improve the running capability. There are a few players that do appear to run out of steam more than others. They are still young and hopefully with another preseason they come back a bit more developed

 

[martinson]

I agree with you on possession counts are not the main thing to be counted, especially for guys whose role is often not a big ball winner. Ie I would be incredibly happy if a defender like Gardiner didnt get a single possession as the team completely shut down the opposition and it never went near his opponent.

And I have no doubt our team was completely spent and gave it their all in the game.

But I do agree that we are not the fittest team in terms of running capability. Other teams like Collingwood do seem to run games a bit better. We can see this in a few different stats like sprints and distance covered, etc. Clearly its not been the major focus of our game plan this year to be the hardest running team in the comp. And thats fine again we have been very successful with our current plan.

But in a review of the year and seeing what we could do better next year, I think we could look to improve the running capability. There are a few players that do appear to run out of steam more than others. They are still young and hopefully with another preseason they come back a bit more developed

I don't think anyone is indicating players didn't give 100% nor were they not devastated by the loss . Nor are stats the be all and end all indicator of anything.

But I'm sure we'll analyse this loss coldly and realistically to look at areas where we may have done better. It's not difficult to see that a couple of our players struggle to run games out. We still managed to nearly win the game despite someone like Pendlebury dominating the last quarter .Improvements in some areas of our game should make a difference.

I see that as not controversial or accusatory but sensible and I'd be surprised if the coaches didn't think likewise.

 

[Elixuh]

I think Collingwood showed that the best way to shut a game down is to put extras up at the stoppage. The whole point is to stop it getting down there in the first place. The extra at the back is fraught with danger especially when it’s the wrong player.

I think this is the model for us. Our defence is excellent at defending that pressures kick i50. No defence can defend the no pressure bulllet pass to a forward which is what we give up too often and which completely nullifies the +1 back.

 

[rye]

I don't think anyone is indicating players didn't give 100% nor were they not devastated by the loss . Nor are stats the be all and end all indicator of anything.

But I'm sure we'll analyse this loss coldly and realistically to look at areas where we may have done better. It's not difficult to see that a couple of our players struggle to run games out. We still managed to nearly win the game despite someone like Pendlebury dominating the last quarter .Improvements in some areas of our game should make a difference.

I see that as not controversial or accusatory but sensible and I'd be surprised if the coaches didn't think likewise.

im pretty sure i heard fagan say at the best and fairest that the coaches and players have already been watching the grand final replay. we are already analysing the game as a group and seeing where we went wrong and what can be improved to take that next step. with some new members of the coaching staff to come in as well who may be able to provide an outsiders take on where brisbane's game was lacking on the day, we are in a very good position to take this as a learning experience and improve for another tilt next year

compare this to the melbourne v footscray grand final a few years back where beveridge said after about round 6 or 7 that he didnt make the players watch the replay. did not think it was worth their time. no wonder theyve only gone backwards since then.

 

[martinson]

I think this is the model for us. Our defence is excellent at defending that pressures kick i50. No defence can defend the no pressure bulllet pass to a forward which is what we give up too often and which completely nullifies the +1 back.

100% agree.

It's something we can take out of the GF when playing against good opposition who deliver the ball well.

 

[Mighty Lions]

I agree with you on possession counts are not the main thing to be counted, especially for guys whose role is often not a big ball winner. Ie I would be incredibly happy if a defender like Gardiner didnt get a single possession as the team completely shut down the opposition and it never went near his opponent.

And I have no doubt our team was completely spent and gave it their all in the game.

But I do agree that we are not the fittest team in terms of running capability. Other teams like Collingwood do seem to run games a bit better. We can see this in a few different stats like sprints and distance covered, etc. Clearly its not been the major focus of our game plan this year to be the hardest running team in the comp. And thats fine again we have been very successful with our current plan.

But in a review of the year and seeing what we could do better next year, I think we could look to improve the running capability. There are a few players that do appear to run out of steam more than others. They are still young and hopefully with another preseason they come back a bit more developed

From a supporter's point of view I can see how you think some on our list "run out of steam" unlike the opposition. Buckley on Sen this morning stated that it's incredibly greulling to get into a Grand Final and even more so winning won. We lost by 4 points and in my opinion Collingwood simply managed the last 5 minutes better than us. Pendelbury was amazing....that guy is now in my Top 5 all time best players I've seen play footy. His composure in situations like that was epic and unique. His last 5 minutes were so important to them.
We will take a lot out of that experience and I have no doubt with the STILL young list we have, along with a couple of top ups, we will be up there again in 2024. As for being more fit or maybe having a list that improves it's running capacity, I trust the conditioning people we have in the club to have them do the work & them ready for Round 1 as fit as any. Most players will come on board with this pre-season 100% committed but there is always 1 or 2 that dont and thats not just unique to our club.

 

[Gadzorks]

I want a confirmation that dew is ours.

The longer we go without confirmation, the less likely.

 

[T Rick]

With the departure of Jed Adcock

Jed Adcock

Age

39

Ht

183cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.4

4star

K

10.3

4star

HB

7.1

4star

M

4.5

4star

T

3.6

5star

MG

214.0

3star

No current season stats available

D

8.8

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

4.2

4star

M

2.0

3star

T

2.2

4star

and Mark Stone we have a wonderful opportunity to get in some fresh ideas and enhanced support for Fages to take us forward… I think this sort of managed turnover is essential in any coaching group, especially given how stable we have been for so long.

 

[dlanod]

I want a confirmation that dew is ours.

The longer we go without confirmation, the less likely.

Was it ever actually a real story or just a pundit's speculation? There's been absolutely nothing reported other than what was repeated on here.

 

[Elixuh]

Was it ever actually a real story or just a pundit's speculation? There's been absolutely nothing reported other than what was repeated on here.

Whoever posted it as fact in here yesterday and lured me into emotionally investing in Dewood 2024 needs to be banned if it doesn’t eventuate.

 

[Eons]

From AFL.com.au

Gabelich added clubs were knocking on the door of other members of Collingwood's coaching ranks, including Brendon Bolton, Hayden Skipworth

Hayden Skipworth

Age

41

Ht

177cm

Wt

78kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.3

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

6.5

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

2.4

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

5.8

3star

HB

2.2

2star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.4

4star

and Scott Selwood

Scott Selwood

Age

34

Ht

186cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.1

5star

K

8.8

3star

HB

10.3

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

3.7

5star

No current season stats available

D

12.0

3star

K

5.2

2star

HB

6.8

5star

M

2.8

3star

T

1.2

3star

.

"My understanding is Brisbane is one of the clubs that are looking at Scott Selwood

Scott Selwood

Age

34

Ht

186cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.1

5star

K

8.8

3star

HB

10.3

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

3.7

5star

No current season stats available

D

12.0

3star

K

5.2

2star

HB

6.8

5star

M

2.8

3star

T

1.2

3star

," he said.

Meanwhile, Gabelich says Geelong's head of development Matthew Egan

Matthew Egan

Age

41

Ht

196cm

Wt

101kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.5

3star

K

4.8

2star

HB

5.7

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.2

3star

No current season stats available

D

7.0

2star

K

3.2

2star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

0.4

3star

is now on the Bulldogs' radar.

 

[almagoo]

I can understand (and share) the ongoing pain from the loss....but to suggest that some players "slogged their guts out in the last trying to get us over the line" and infer that others chose not to...is pretty p$ss poor in my opinion.

Fages has already said the coaching group will address (and have already started) the defiencies head on...and I trust them to do what they can to fix it.

 

[mpal6]

From AFL.com.au

Gabelich added clubs were knocking on the door of other members of Collingwood's coaching ranks, including Brendon Bolton, Hayden Skipworth and Scott Selwood.

"My understanding is Brisbane is one of the clubs that are looking at Scott Selwood," he said.

Meanwhile, Gabelich says Geelong's head of development Matthew Egan is now on the Bulldogs' radar.

ok so Gabelich reads bigfooty.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I think this is the model for us. Our defence is excellent at defending that pressures kick i50.

Where does it end tho? What if we bring up an extra, so they bring up another extra, and so on?

Adding congestion around the ball simply creates more space away from the ball, potentially exacerbating the issue you've raised here:

No defence can defend the no pressure bulllet pass to a forward which is what we give up too often and which completely nullifies the +1 back.

This is why I believe the solution is not to play with a +1 so much but to play with (a) a better ability to spread away from contest and stoppage which then dovetails into (b) a better-functioning structure behind the ball.

Essentially I'm advocating being able to do more with less. I don't think simply adding more and more numbers around the contest is either smart or sustainable.

On the other hand, if we can improve our spread away from contest and stoppage, which includes our guys improving their second efforts if they get beaten, and working hard to chase back when the ball gets past them, it reduces the risk of an overlap.

Thus, it reduces the need for our defenders to hand over, and push up to the ball carrier. That is too easily exploited these days, in part by those bullet passes you refer to, and the end game is that you have your far side winger opposed to the other team's full forward in the goal square. We saw that against Hawthorn and it did not end well.

 

[Elixuh]

Where does it end tho? What if we bring up an extra, so they bring up another extra, and so on?

Adding congestion around the ball simply creates more space away from the ball, potentially exacerbating the issue you've raised here:



This is why I believe the solution is not to play with a +1 so much but to play with (a) a better ability to spread away from contest and stoppage which then dovetails into (b) a better-functioning structure behind the ball.

Essentially I'm advocating being able to do more with less. I don't think simply adding more and more numbers around the contest is either smart or sustainable.

On the other hand, if we can improve our spread away from contest and stoppage, which includes our guys improving their second efforts if they get beaten, and working hard to chase back when the ball gets past them, it reduces the risk of an overlap.

Thus, it reduces the need for our defenders to hand over, and push up to the ball carrier. That is too easily exploited these days, in part by those bullet passes you refer to, and the end game is that you have your far side winger opposed to the other team's full forward in the goal square. We saw that against Hawthorn and it did not end well.

You need levers to pull to help the players, that won’t change. One lever we have shown we will pull is the +1 in defence.

I’m only commenting based on what we have seen rather than how the midfield/stoppage work could be improved over the offseason. You could still make improvements and require these levers.

Based on what we have seen and the players we have my view is the +1 around the ball is better for us than the +1 behind the ball. Obviously the coaches have access to all kinds of data which says the opposite, but my view is once you lose the upfield battle and a player gets out with clean ball then the +1 in defence is largely nullified. Whereas if you can greatly reduce the % chance of that happening and instead turn those entries into rushed pressured kicks at best, then we are much better off.

Even when rayner takes a nice mark down back his use is a bit suspect lol.

Sorry above is a ramble which i haven’t re-read but I need to go get some sushi.

 

[davemc_lions]

From a supporter's point of view I can see how you think some on our list "run out of steam" unlike the opposition. Buckley on Sen this morning stated that it's incredibly greulling to get into a Grand Final and even more so winning won. We lost by 4 points and in my opinion Collingwood simply managed the last 5 minutes better than us. Pendelbury was amazing....that guy is now in my Top 5 all time best players I've seen play footy. His composure in situations like that was epic and unique. His last 5 minutes were so important to them.
We will take a lot out of that experience and I have no doubt with the STILL young list we have, along with a couple of top ups, we will be up there again in 2024. As for being more fit or maybe having a list that improves it's running capacity, I trust the conditioning people we have in the club to have them do the work & them ready for Round 1 as fit as any. Most players will come on board with this pre-season 100% committed but there is always 1 or 2 that dont and thats not just unique to our club.

Also think it comes from we won 11 last quarters from 17 wins
We also lost to the Demons who scored +22 in last.
Honestly I worry with us in last qtrs
After Demons game we won 4 close ones Saints and Dockers we just outscored in last.
Although we lost the last to Crows 2.5 to 1.1 and Cats 4.3 to 2.1

I do agree Pies manage end of quarters a lot better then us.
I also think they changed parts of their game plan to beat us.
Mitchell to Neale and Frampton to Andrews.

I do wonder someone like Sharp we could mould into a run with player.
He has the legs and seems hard at it

 

[Grasshopper17]

You need levers to pull to help the players, that won’t change. One lever we have shown we will pull is the +1 in defence.

I’m only commenting based on what we have seen rather than how the midfield/stoppage work could be improved over the offseason. You could still make improvements and require these levers.

Based on what we have seen and the players we have my view is the +1 around the ball is better for us than the +1 behind the ball. Obviously the coaches have access to all kinds of data which says the opposite, but my view is once you lose the upfield battle and a player gets out with clean ball then the +1 in defence is largely nullified. Whereas if you can greatly reduce the % chance of that happening and instead turn those entries into rushed pressured kicks at best, then we are much better off.

Even when rayner takes a nice mark down back his use is a bit suspect lol.

Sorry above is a ramble which i haven’t re-read but I need to go get some sushi.

No I like it.

"Based on what we have seen and the players we have my view is the +1 around the ball is better for us than the +1 behind the ball."

Agree with this 200%.

My concern is if it becomes 7 on 7... what if they push up another extra to the contest and it becomes our 7 on their 8? Do we cop that and say "surely our 6 backs can beat their 5 forwards"? Or do we equalise again and make it 8 on 8? This is what I'm getting at when I ask "where does it end?"

I think each time you do this you get less and less return on that extra player at the stoppage, at the expense of your structure behind the ball. And potentially ahead of the ball for that matter.

Broadly agree that the +1 behind the ball is relatively useless in open play where there is little pressure. Essentially you are playing 2 men short: the attempted tackler that's just been pushed away and that also takes the +1 out of the game.

+1 behind the ball only works for the slow kick to a well set zone, where there is no leading spaces, or in high pressure situations where it's hard for both the ball carrier and the leading forwards to predict each other.

 

[Elixuh]

No I like it.

"Based on what we have seen and the players we have my view is the +1 around the ball is better for us than the +1 behind the ball."

Agree with this 200%.

My concern is if it becomes 7 on 7... what if they push up another extra to the contest and it becomes our 7 on their 8? Do we cop that and say "surely our 6 backs can beat their 5 forwards"? Or do we equalise again and make it 8 on 8? This is what I'm getting at when I ask "where does it end?"

I think each time you do this you get less and less return on that extra player at the stoppage, at the expense of your structure behind the ball. And potentially ahead of the ball for that matter.

Broadly agree that the +1 behind the ball is relatively useless in open play where there is little pressure. Essentially you are playing 2 men short: the attempted tackler that's just been pushed away and that also takes the +1 out of the game.

+1 behind the ball only works for the slow kick to a well set zone, where there is no leading spaces, or in high pressure situations where it's hard for both the ball carrier and the leading forwards to predict each other.

I’m not sure how many teams would push an eighth around the ball - maybe they would? Maybe they wouldn’t, I don’t know the answer.

There would have to be a tipping point where if you push too many to the ball your structure either forward or back can collapse, ie you’re basically conceding you won’t score if you win the ball and will concede if you lose the stoppage.

But I don’t have the data to know the answer.

 

[notliondown]

So with virtually a full list to choose from (apart from Payne and Ashcroft) people are upset with our conditioning staff??? To make it to that part of the season with the small amount of major injuries we carried deserves a medal.

Running out a grand final where we arrive in Melbourne Thursday night after 5 or 6 hours of sitting on planes and in airports waiting out storms, experiencing the hype of a parade and presentation, sleep in different beds in different surrounds, and have to deal with the adrenaline of the occasion is not a great example to use to pot our running ability.

Especially when you single out 18 and 19 year olds like Willmont and Fletcher.

Not to mention we chased tail for most of that game - for reasons other than our fitness.

I'm happy to see new people with new ideas enter the coaching arena. I think we have made some poor tactical and gameplan decisions during the course of the season and I would like to see us adapt more to certain teams. But using the grand final as evidence of anything doesn't really achieve much when there are so many other factors at play that don't normally exist.

I think we run out games we win perfectly well... it's the ones we lose that we struggle which tells me it's more mental that physical.

As for getting more out of certain players... those issues have existed for a season not a game.

 

[Grasshopper17]

So with virtually a full list to choose from (apart from Payne and Ashcroft) people are upset with our conditioning staff??? To make it to that part of the season with the small amount of major injuries we carried deserves a medal.

Running out a grand final where we arrive in Melbourne Thursday night after 5 or 6 hours of sitting on planes and in airports waiting out storms, experience the hype of a parade and presentation, sleep in different beds in different surrounds, and have to deal with the adrenaline of the occasion is not a great example to use to pot our running ability.

Especially when you single out 18 and 19 year olds like Willmont and Fletcher.

Not to mention we chased tail for most of that game - for reasons other than our fitness.

I'm happy to see new people with new ideas enter the coaching arena. I think we have made some poor tactical and gameplan decisions during the course of the season and I would like to see us adapt more to certain teams. But using the grand final as evidence of anything doesn't really achieve much when there are so many other factors at play that don't normally exist.

I think there are plenty of other examples during the season which point to issues with the conditioning of our players.

Certainly attributing our issues on Grand Final day on an ill-timed 90 minute storm on the Thursday doesn't wash. Our 2001 Grand Final team was considerably more impacted by Ansett going under the night before they were due to fly to Melbourne for the Grand Final, yet they converted a 20 point deficit into a 38 point lead in less than 2 quarters. In very similar conditions on game day.

 

[notliondown]

I think there are plenty of other examples during the season which point to issues with the conditioning of our players.

Certainly attributing our issues on Grand Final day on an ill-timed 90 minute storm on the Thursday doesn't wash. Our 2001 Grand Final team was considerably more impacted by Ansett going under the night before they were due to fly to Melbourne for the Grand Final, yet they converted a 20 point deficit into a 38 point lead in less than 2 quarters. In very similar conditions on game day.

I edited my post to add a bit about games we win and running them out compared to ones we lose.

I truly believe we suffer more from emotional fatigue than physical. We set ourselves for big games and kill it. We looked like we've run a marathon for games where we should steamroll the opposition.

Conditioning is a fine line... getting that right is an artform. I'd prefer a full list being available than the opposite.

I'm not saying we can't improve but running out games is a line trotted out every time we lose. No one mentions it after a win. It's easy to run over the ground with confidence and adrenaline. Not so much chasing a team beating you.

As for the rain delay I think you may have cherry picked a little bit. I was simply saying that there were lots of factors at play during that period leading up to the game that unsettles the team, not that the rain was THE issue.

Do you think the Pies players would have swapped the week we had for theirs where they slept in their own beds in their own homes and maintained the same routine that they do for about 48 weeks of the year?

 

[davemc_lions]

I think we run out games we win perfectly well... it's the ones we lose that we struggle which tells me it's more mental that physical.

As said stats are we won 11 last quarters out of 23 games so under 50% running out game.. Equal to Blues, Bombers and Tiger
Flip side we won 16 1st, 14 2nd ,15 3rd which setup 17 wins.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Also think it comes from we won 11 last quarters from 17 wins
We also lost to the Demons who scored +22 in last.
Honestly I worry with us in last qtrs
After Demons game we won 4 close ones Saints and Dockers we just outscored in last.
Although we lost the last to Crows 2.5 to 1.1 and Cats 4.3 to 2.1

I do agree Pies manage end of quarters a lot better then us.
I also think they changed parts of their game plan to beat us.
Mitchell to Neale and Frampton to Andrews.

I do wonder someone like Sharp we could mould into a run with player.
He has the legs and seems hard at it

Had we have won the game by 4 points it would probably have been a different summary again.
Sharpie is definitely an elite runner but is he a footballer along with being an athlete?