Coach Fages and the coaching group

[Grasshopper17]

God I would hate to coach... I would be utter shit at it.

The balance between faith, trust and panic, reactiveness is such an incredibly fine line. I wouldn't even try.

How does Fages reconcile our first quarters with our second? How does he compare our utter domination to our complete capitulation 5 minutes later?

His faith is his weakness at times I think but man what a headfuk our team can be. I'm not sure how you can anticipate what we do next.

To me it's not so much game day coaching that fails us, our best beats anyone and we and they know it. It's something from week to week we need to work on and that's more about the people around him than Fages himself.

It's the disparate personalities at play that is most likely to drive you bonkers. On one hand you have a guy like Josh Dunkley who gives 110% basically every second of every game, and would be an absolute dream to coach, because you know exactly what you're going to get every time he runs out there.

Then at the other end of the spectrum you have Joe, whose ceiling is arguably far higher than Dunks but who we all know veers erratically from the sublime to the ridiculous and back again, often within seconds. Reference his soccer goal against Melbourne, arguably the most "Joe" goal you'll ever see.

Pulling all these different personalities together and having them function as a cohesive and successful team is incredibly challenging. The way you get the best out of Dunks I imagine is very different to the way you get the best out of Joe.

 

[martinson]

Collingwood certainly emerged out the front of ground ball contests with alarming regularity throughout the match. As often as anything tho it was caused by our backwards handballs in search of an unmarked team mate going astray or being broken up.

This is exactly what happened to us in Round 3 at the Gabba, and I outlined my suggestions at the time, which I believe remain appropriate. Even more so perhaps, given I think the quality of our tackling and general on-ball pressure has improved (to an extent) during the season.

If your backwards handball misses its target, whatever the reason, you immediately invite the opposition an exit out the front of the stoppage, completely bypassing your first line of defence and rendering redundant any pressure it may have been able to apply.

On our midfield coach, if there is any substance to the notion that players take on traits of their coach, your comments would make sense because as a player, Cameron Bruce very rarely (if ever) concerned himself with the defensive side of the game. And he even (light heartedly) admitted as much in a recent radio interview in some banter with a former team mate. I forget the station and the team mate now unfortunately.

Having said that, Cameron Bruce is a premiership midfield coach so I'm happy to cut him a bit of slack. Our defensive setups around stoppages do need to be addressed however; we've bled goals from static plays alarmingly in the last two games. McCreery's matchwinner on Saturday was only the latest of them.

Laziness and no repercussions.

Seen it seep in the last couple of weeks ,injuries and all.

There's a argument that we have the most talented list in the game but just not standing up in key moments . The panic that set in in the 2nd quarter was also a bit disconcerting. People here tend to paper over the issues because we're 'successful'.

Whatever anyone else thinks Harris hasn't been right the last couple of weeks and that's really hurt us. When Cameron knocked him out I think he had 7 weeks off and I think he should've had a couple more off this time except we would've had no backline without him .

Then Hipwood at the other end who was also struggling.

All in all we're probably doing ok without regressing from what I said in the first 3 paragraphs.

 

[Grasshopper17]

My impression is that Fagan has mollycoddled the players too much and that we don't respond well to real pressure. It's evident with each passing year.

... imo he needs help and a tinkering in approach to get this list to get the best out of themselves. There I said it.

That shouldn't be taken as a criticism of him per se because it's a tough job where most fail every year . Some for years on end.

I think to be fair we have seen and heard a change in his general commentary to the media this season compared to previous seasons. I don't think we have seen anywhere near as much mollycoddling this year.

To me it's consistent with the narrative he spun after the Grand Final last year that he thought we were only just coming into our window. With that narrative comes higher standards, greater stakes, grander expectations, externally perhaps but certainly internally.

So I think he has changed and I respect him for that. It's time for our players to come with him. I had begun to think they had, but we have seen a disturbing regression in the last fortnight.

 

[Grasshopper17]

The panic that set in in the 2nd quarter was also a bit disconcerting. People here tend to paper over the issues because we're 'successful'.

For what it's worth I thought we answered the challenge impressively in the 2nd quarter. Yes we were under the pump but we held them out for basically the last 10-15 minutes. Sometimes the blind hack kick is all you need to give you enough time to organise your defence sufficiently to make their re-entry come to nought. It becomes more about distance, direction and, more importantly, hang time, than anything else. Having played a bit of soccer the principle is similar.

Here's the 2nd quarter score worm which I believe demonstrates my argument.

 

[martinson]

I think to be fair we have seen and heard a change in his general commentary to the media this season compared to previous seasons. I don't think we have seen anywhere near as much mollycoddling this year.

To me it's consistent with the narrative he spun after the Grand Final last year that he thought we were only just coming into our window. With that narrative comes higher standards, greater stakes, grander expectations, externally perhaps but certainly internally.

So I think he has changed and I respect him for that. It's time for our players to come with him. I had begun to think they had, but we have seen a disturbing regression in the last fortnight.

Very good insight.

Maybe there's a time coming where Fages will realise the old Fages has had time enough and it's time for a new Fages.

 

[martinson]

For what it's worth I thought we answered the challenge impressively in the 2nd quarter. Yes we were under the pump but we held them out for basically the last 10-15 minutes. Sometimes the blind hack kick is all you need to give you enough time to organise your defence sufficiently to make their re-entry come to nought. It becomes more about distance, direction and, more importantly, hang time, than anything else. Having played a bit of soccer the principle is similar.

Here's the 2nd quarter score worm which I believe demonstrates my argument.

View attachment 2085078

I'm not disagreeing and we got by by just doing whatever it took to hack the ball out of there. Which wasn't pretty and there's a risk that that can go very wrong as well.

I was more onto the issue that our M/F couldn't be bothered for half the quarter. And we were helped by them not taking full opportunities after the first 3 goals . Same as the first half of the last quarter.

A lot's been made of us coughing up our chances but they had their fair share as well.

 

[luthor]

I think to be fair we have seen and heard a change in his general commentary to the media this season compared to previous seasons. I don't think we have seen anywhere near as much mollycoddling this year.

To me it's consistent with the narrative he spun after the Grand Final last year that he thought we were only just coming into our window. With that narrative comes higher standards, greater stakes, grander expectations, externally perhaps but certainly internally.

So I think he has changed and I respect him for that. It's time for our players to come with him. I had begun to think they had, but we have seen a disturbing regression in the last fortnight.

There has been regression in one area only.

We keep missing easy goals.

For me , it's as simple as that.

Kick even reasonably well for goal and we are second on the ladder right now.

We have the game, the players and the weapons to win the Premiership. If results go as expected, we'll finish 5th. Win a home EF and go from there.

We can still do this. No side playing Finals is anything like trustworthy and all of them have injury concerns to key players.

Just play to our ability and kick straight and we are still a live chance

 

[martinson]

There has been regression in one area only.

We keep missing easy goals.

For me , it's as simple as that.

Kick even reasonably well for goal and we are second on the ladder right now.

We have the game, the players and the weapons to win the Premiership. If results go as expected, we'll finish 5th. Win a home EF and go from there.

We can still do this. No side playing Finals is anything like trustworthy and all of them have injury concerns to key players.

Just play to our ability and kick straight and we are still a live chance

The bye can't come soon enough for us. We're tired and playing guys who are just getting out there.

 

[luthor]

The bye can't come soon enough for us. We're tired and playing guys who are just getting out there.

Won't matter a damn if we can't kick the ball through the big sticks

 

[McIvor]

It's the disparate personalities at play that is most likely to drive you bonkers. On one hand you have a guy like Josh Dunkley who gives 110% basically every second of every game, and would be an absolute dream to coach, because you know exactly what you're going to get every time he runs out there.

Then at the other end of the spectrum you have Joe, whose ceiling is arguably far higher than Dunks but who we all know veers erratically from the sublime to the ridiculous and back again, often within seconds. Reference his soccer goal against Melbourne, arguably the most "Joe" goal you'll ever see.

Pulling all these different personalities together and having them function as a cohesive and successful team is incredibly challenging. The way you get the best out of Dunks I imagine is very different to the way you get the best out of Joe.

Enjoyed your discussion tonight with Martinson.

But about what you’re talking about on FC

 

[Grasshopper17]

Enjoyed your discussion tonight with Martinson.

But about what you’re talking about on FC

Yeah, see Lloyd would coach Joe a bit like how I'd probably coach him. But from what I've seen that's the sort of approach that probably breaks someone like Joe. And that's where/when you get some of the quite absurd and laughable stuff we saw from him at Essendon, like that day when he literally went and sat on the fence in the forward pocket while the game was going in at Adelaide Oval during COVID.

I think the club went into the whole process of recruiting Joe having a fair idea of the box of chocolates we were going to get, with the hope that we could give him the odd push along the way so that we got more good than bad. And to be fair, by and large we've succeeded at that. But Joe probably needs a coach like Fagan, who's perhaps a little more tolerant of some of his quirks and nuances than other coaches.

It makes you wonder how he might have gone under John Longmire, remembering that Sydney tried to poach him from Essendon a year earlier. Horse is probably renowned for being tougher on players with respect to (self-)discipline and defensive intent than most coaches. Mind you I guess that didn't stop Buddy almost completely dialling it in that regard during the last few years of his career there.

 

[Nathan Barley]

If coached harder

Gee I wonder Lloydy has never been a coach at AFL level

 

[Nathan Barley]

Seriously probably the dumbest conversation I've ever seen about footy

That all came as a result of frustration because he was trying to get over the line. Then got a bad bounce, then a horrifically poor umpiring decision

Why does every footy show have to take inspiration from American right wing media and just twist shit to drive emotional responses?

 

[JasRulz63]

I'm quite sure Lloyd was Daniher's goal kicking coach when he was at Essendon...

 

[martinson]

The weird thing is Joe isn't anywhere near the problem.

He really put in on Saturday and nearly got us over the line.

 

[p4p1]

Seriously probably the dumbest conversation I've ever seen about footy

That all came as a result of frustration because he was trying to get over the line. Then got a bad bounce, then a horrifically poor umpiring decision

Why does every footy show have to take inspiration from American right wing media and just twist shit to drive emotional responses?

Thank you for this.
He still kicked 4 goals, was one of our best and the whole idea of 'he won't be the superstar' he already ****ing is. He was probably unlucky last year not to get AA selection. He does, at time do some infuriating things but he also does some things that are utterly brilliant that only he would think of doing.

Last year when he gave it off to a teammate instead of trying to win the game, he was 'too scared to embrace the moment' know he is too selfish etc. I have seen him bust his gut running defensively this year, which is something these ****wits never highlight, I have seen him gut running to get to a ball to be close enough just so insufficient intent couldn't be paid. An unhappy Joe doesn't give you that IMO.

 

[p4p1]

The weird thing is Joe isn't anywhere near the problem.

He really put in on Saturday and nearly got us over the line.

Has been one of our best consistently over the past couple of years. Including in big games. Has kicked game winning goals in finals etc. Yes he has sprayed it, but we know 35m out in front, he probably is going to.

 

[Nathan Barley]

I'd say Joe is probably one of the better set shots in our forward line as well. As bad as he is

 

[p4p1]

I'd say Joe is probably one of the better set shots in our forward line as well. As bad as he is

I don't think he is that bad, he nails the difficult ones and sprays the regulation ones which anecdotally probably makes him look worse than he is.

 

[JasRulz63]

I'd say Joe is probably one of the better set shots in our forward line as well. As bad as he is

AFL Expected Scores

AFL expected scores and player shot charts.

www.wheeloratings.com

Based on the Wheelo expected score for sets shots this season, Daniher (+3.1) is fourth behind Rayner (+6.6), McCarthy (+4.8) and Ah Chee (+3.5).

Charlie is comfortably the worst at -42.1, which is worst in the league by a fair margin (Watson is second at -31.5). From 40-50m range (all shots), he's had 15 shots for 2.3 and 10 no scores.

 

[Nathan Barley]

AFL Expected Scores

AFL expected scores and player shot charts.

www.wheeloratings.com

Based on the Wheelo expected score for sets shots this season, Daniher (+3.1) is fourth behind Rayner (+6.6), McCarthy (+4.8) and Ah Chee (+3.5).

Charlie is comfortably the worst at -42.1, which is worst in the league by a fair margin (Watson is second at -31.5).

Yeah Ah Chee, an in form Bailey, a not out of form Rayner are the only ones not injured that I'd put above him

 

[McIvor]

Anyone have access to and able post this article in The West Australian from this morning - any legs to it?

Why this man is the dark horse in Eagles coach hunt

The Eagles need to get a wriggle on with the search for a coach — and there’s a left-of-centre option that has barely been discussed, writes Xavier Ellis.

thewest.com.au

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Wouldn't listen to anything anyone on a footy panel had to say about coaching. There's a reason that's not what they're doing for a living. I've heard some pretty negative things about King from his time at Richmond. Lloyd would similarly be a terrible coach.

 

[JasRulz63]

Anyone have access to and able post this article in The West Australian from this morning - any legs to it?

Why this man is the dark horse in Eagles coach hunt

The Eagles need to get a wriggle on with the search for a coach — and there’s a left-of-centre option that has barely been discussed, writes Xavier Ellis.

thewest.com.au

The Daly relevant part:

If rumours are to believed, the race is down to four: Current interim coach Jarrad Schofield, Melbourne assistant Andrew McQualter, GWS assistant Brett Montgomery and — the left-of-centre option that has barely been discussed — Brisbane football manager Danny Daly.

My tea-leaves are telling me that the Eagles are very keen to have in-depth conversations with Daly. Alongside Chris Fagan, he has been instrumental in implementing the strategic side of the Lions game plan and has held almost every role within AFL clubland. He certainly should not be ruled out of the race.

 

[Lace Out]

Congratulations to Chris Fagan for delivering us 6 consecutive finals campaigns equaling Lethal’s 1999-2004