Coach Fages and the coaching group

[Squizz89]

Seen plenty of people talking about it the last few weeks in particular so why not a discussion?

This isn’t a Fages bashing thread but I wanted to see what other people thought about the coaching group and our apparent lack of a Plan B during games.

We seem to be totally set on playing our way, which is fine, but as we’ve seen from the past month in particular, when we can’t get the game on our terms we really are an average football team.

We also do not appear to be a team who likes to throw the magnets around, which again can be a good thing but can also limit what we can do during games.

Also, I know it’s easy in hindsight but I wonder if they have any regrets about not blooding any of the depth on our list the last few years. With the injuries we’ve suffered this year it’s really exposed the little of this we have on the list.

We all love Fages and what he’s done for us especially from where we came from, but I do wonder if sometimes we could do things differently.

Just read my original post that began this thread in August 2021. Could literally have written this word for word 12 months later based on our year this year. We haven’t suffered the injuries of last year but we haven’t dropped any of the underperforming senior guys to see what we’ve got in reserve either.

I think if we are saying the same things again in 12 months time he could be in trouble.

 

[On the quiet]

I wonder if Fages and Lethal still catch up regularly for a meal like they did in the early years...would love to know what Leigh thinks of our current situation and his advice to Fagan.

Interested to see what other peoples thoughts are about my take here: I believe we have the personnel to beat Melbourne but is almost solely our game plan vs theirs which doesn’t compete.

Thoughts?

Gawn/Jackson v Oscar/McStay
Oliver v Matho
Viney v Neal
Patracca v Lyons

I rest my case. But do agree regarding the game plan statement

 

[Thomasno]

Honestly

I feel like Daniher messed up our gameplan. Him and Hipwood are basically the same thing - talls with the mind of a small forward.

They’re both not playing anywhere near their best, that’s the issue. Hipwood is coming off an ACL, and Daniher is playing injured.

People seem to forget it looked like a genius move last year when we were flying with both of them fit and firing until hipwood went down.

Daniher too was one of the best forwards in the comp this year before he did his shoulder, he’s gonna need surgery at the end of the season.

 

[On the quiet]

We are going to end up with an age profile gap shortly if we don't play the next group on a consistent basis. If that happens and we lose say Dev, Prior, TBerry, Payne and so on - then the seniors will exit without replacements which will cause a drop for us.

How do we beat Geelong or Melbourne at the 'G' in a Prelim with this current group of seasoned players? They have had plenty of chances, especially in the big games.
Making a Prelim this year could almost be detrimental to us in a few years time as nothing too much will change, except a lot of expectations on an 18 year old to make an immediate impact in 2023.

 

[StevoJenkins]

Wouldn’t be surprised if we asked Ken Hinkley or Adam Simpson the question for either assistants or head coach at the end of next near, don’t think Fagan is the man to bring us to a premiership.

Keep seeing Rutten popping up as a possible assistant for us, but unless we’ve told our assistants that their time is up already (deadline was earlier this month), we won’t be getting new assistants or Rutten.

So unless someone leaves, we’re stuck with the current set of assistants.

 

[BuntonRules]

What I would give for Chocko Williams.

 

[Sanchez365]

Wouldn’t be surprised if we asked Ken Hinkley or Adam Simpson the question for either assistants or head coach at the end of next near, don’t think Fagan is the man to bring us to a premiership.

Keep seeing Rutten popping up as a possible assistant for us, but unless we’ve told our assistants that their time is up already (deadline was earlier this month), we won’t be getting new assistants or Rutten.

So unless someone leaves, we’re stuck with the current set of assistants.

I would just about stop supporting the club if we gave Ken Hinkley the job. He's a terrible coach.

 

[Sanchez365]

Is it the head coach that sets his assistants? Because you can't just wack new coaches into a system that doesn't want them, how many coaches did fages bring with him when he joined? Because maybe Fagan could have enough sway around the AFL to get one of these assistants to come join us.

Problem is he'd have to recognize a problem, and I fear he has the same "they will come good" mentality with his coaching lineup as he does with his on field team.

 

[McIvor]

Surely we have to give Davis the boot and throw some money at Rutten, right?

Davis is protected whilst his wife is CEO of the AFLW team. Won't be going anywhere.

 

[Sherrinator]

Regarding assistant coaches, not one of our current crop look to be future AFL head coaches. Lack of experience elsewhere and just the way they speak when interviewed (Listen to Hudson for eg). These guys aren’t getting a gig at another club.

 

[McIvor]

Regarding assistant coaches, not one of our current crop look to be future AFL head coaches. Lack of experience elsewhere and just the way they speak when interviewed (Listen to Hudson for eg). These guys aren’t getting a gig at another club.

Absolutely - said it last night, we probably have the worst coaching group in the league. Who are our players going to to talk about winning premierships or what it takes to win? Jed Adcock (who I adore, but he was unfortunately at our club in just about its lowest ebb), Ben Hudson or Cameron Bruce - footy journeymen. Then we have the group that never played at the AFL level - Fagan, Daly, Stone, Henrikson, Littlejohn and Davis. Aside from Fagan I doubt, as you say, that any other club comes looking for this motley bunch. Perhaps Littlejohn when and if Tassie come in.

Melbourne are just stacked for talent - Goodwin, Richardson, Williams and Yze - all consistently good footballers in there own right and either coached AFL team or Yze, the next likely cab off teh rank at the Giants. Tigers, Blues, Magpies, Swans, Cats actually you could go on are just stacked with talent.

 

[pod17]

Important to remember that the Tigers first made finals in 2013 with a core group of players that won the 2017 premiership. Hawks of 07/08, it took them a while to really solidify themselves as a dominant side. Even look at the Lions of yesteryear - finals in 97, a drop in 98, before going on to be serious challengers in 99-04. We will be okay. The coaching group is extremely sound - but like others have said the list needs to be improved and the time is now.

Our midfield is our Achilles heel. Dunkley and Ashcroft in would be great but the hard calls need to come. Lyons output is no better than Matho, arguably no better than what Dev would put out, but on triple the money. That’s an issue and it needs to be looked at because he doesn’t warrant selection in the 22 right now (or for most of the year).

However, a glaring problem for mine is the salary Joe is commanding for the output he is providing. It’s a huge concern that he has been poor all year, with a lacklustre on field attitude, yet would be one of the higher paid at the club. I’m okay with letting McStay leave for the sort of money being offered, but he is arguably more impactful than Joe (who is on a multi year deal worth more) given he gives us that long down the line option. I know it’s been mentioned elsewhere but I think Gunston needs to be approached given he is a more reliable avenue to goal with improved professionalism.

 

[JoeDanihersMoustache]

Absolutely - said it last night, we probably have the worst coaching group in the league. Who are our players going to to talk about winning premierships or what it takes to win? Jed Adcock (who I adore, but he was unfortunately at our club in just about its lowest ebb), Ben Hudson or Cameron Bruce - footy journeymen. Then we have the group that never played at the AFL level - Fagan, Daly, Stone, Henrikson, Littlejohn and Davis. Aside from Fagan I doubt, as you say, that any other club comes looking for this motley bunch. Perhaps Littlejohn when and if Tassie come in.

Melbourne are just stacked for talent - Goodwin, Richardson, Williams and Yze - all consistently good footballers in there own right and either coached AFL team or Yze, the next likely cab off teh rank at the Giants. Tigers, Blues, Magpies, Swans, Cats actually you could go on are just stacked with talent.

I went to a Justin Leppitsch football camp in 06 plenty of ex players there as well as lions staff.

There was a distinct pricking up of the ears when ex players would talk about skills and techniques vs when random staff from the club would. Granted i was 11 or something at the time but still you get my point. The immediate respect and acknowledgement when listening to a former premiership winning player speak on something skill related is noticeable.

At one point Leppitsch kicked a goal from at least 40 metres out with the back of his foot

 

[StevoJenkins]

I would just about stop supporting the club if we gave Ken Hinkley the job. He's a terrible coach.

At least he isn’t afraid to make changes when it’s needed. Will drop players. Fagan cannot drop players, must play guys he likes over guys who should be playing.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

It is very hard to assess these things externally, but one misstep by the club this year (coaching, medical staff, or a bit of both) seems to be the decision not to send Joe in for surgery after the Swans game.

The word at the time was that, if we had sent him in, he would have been back a couple of weeks out from finals and fully fit. The alternative was to manage him through the season, and hope he would be okay.

I think Joe has been okay and better than most of his critics have suggested, but I don't think what he's provided over the last few months is too many levels about what Fort or Fullarton could possibly have given us. Alternatively, if he was at full fitness going into this finals campaign, I think that would change our chances quite a bit.

One of those really hard decisions to make in the midst of the season, but it is looking like the wrong decision I think.

 

[MacMum]

What I would give for Chocko Williams.

You and me both! Have been a fan of his for a long time.

Over the years I've heard him interviewed, speaks so well, I could hear the passion for the game, his love of helping develop the young players.....and wherever he has been that team has flourished.

We need some grunt to back up a gentile coach..

 

[bungalow_bill]

Hopefully they weren't watching the 4th quarter choke.

Carlton showed more natural choking ability in their last two 4th quarters than our team has shown ALL YEAR!

 

[MacMum]

It is very hard to assess these things externally, but one misstep by the club this year (coaching, medical staff, or a bit of both) seems to be the decision not to send Joe in for surgery after the Swans game.

Two.....JBerry on friday night. (and probably lots in between)

It was minor in comparison to Joe, but it proves something I've thought for ages and that is the medicos do what the coaches want, not the way it should be......and that is to rest/sort out injured players. Follow Doctors advice.

...and while they are resting, we bring up a newbie from the seconds and might unearth a new player.

 

[Elixuh]

It is very hard to assess these things externally, but one misstep by the club this year (coaching, medical staff, or a bit of both) seems to be the decision not to send Joe in for surgery after the Swans game.

The word at the time was that, if we had sent him in, he would have been back a couple of weeks out from finals and fully fit. The alternative was to manage him through the season, and hope he would be okay.

I think Joe has been okay and better than most of his critics have suggested, but I don't think what he's provided over the last few months is too many levels about what Fort or Fullarton could possibly have given us. Alternatively, if he was at full fitness going into this finals campaign, I think that would change our chances quite a bit.

One of those really hard decisions to make in the midst of the season, but it is looking like the wrong decision I think.

Agree it was a very tough decision in the context of such a tight season. Also Eric was coming in fresh off an ACL so they may have been worried about what our talls would look like if Joe was out for an extended period. I wonder if he was the difference in any games where he otherwise wouldn't have played (all hypothetical of course). We didn't beat the Suns by much and he kicked 2 or 3.

 

[vic_LION]

Agree it was a very tough decision in the scheme of such a tight season. Also Eric was coming in fresh off an ACL so they may have been worried about what our talls would look like if Joe was out for an extended period. I wonder if he was the difference in any games where he otherwise wouldn't have played (all hypothetical of course). We didn't beat the Suns by much and he kicked 2 or 3.

I think our injuries have been understated this year. While we didn't have the same players go down for extended periods, it seems like a lot have been carrying injuries and playing through most season, not anywhere near to 100%

 

[Thomasno]

Davis is protected whilst his wife is CEO of the AFLW team. Won't be going anywhere.

Absolute ****ing disgrace, hope the man realised he’s garbage at his job then and steps down for the betterment of the club.

 

[Thomasno]

Important to remember that the Tigers first made finals in 2013 with a core group of players that won the 2017 premiership. Hawks of 07/08, it took them a while to really solidify themselves as a dominant side. Even look at the Lions of yesteryear - finals in 97, a drop in 98, before going on to be serious challengers in 99-04. We will be okay. The coaching group is extremely sound - but like others have said the list needs to be improved and the time is now.

Our midfield is our Achilles heel. Dunkley and Ashcroft in would be great but the hard calls need to come. Lyons output is no better than Matho, arguably no better than what Dev would put out, but on triple the money. That’s an issue and it needs to be looked at because he doesn’t warrant selection in the 22 right now (or for most of the year).

However, a glaring problem for mine is the salary Joe is commanding for the output he is providing. It’s a huge concern that he has been poor all year, with a lacklustre on field attitude, yet would be one of the higher paid at the club. I’m okay with letting McStay leave for the sort of money being offered, but he is arguably more impactful than Joe (who is on a multi year deal worth more) given he gives us that long down the line option. I know it’s been mentioned elsewhere but I think Gunston needs to be approached given he is a more reliable avenue to goal with improved professionalism.

Stop with the Joe stuff already, christ. He hasn’t been “poor all year”, he was fantastic until he got injured and now is still playing injured because we don’t have anyone else to replace him with.

He’ll get surgery in a few weeks and be right for next year.

 

[bungalow_bill]

If it weren't for Joe there's a good chance we aren't in the finals.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

I see a lot of faith shown in the same blokes time and time again by Fages and time and time again they fail to deliver on the big moments.

Is that because we don't have the depth to change things up?
Well our Magoo's are playing some good footy in the VFL so that is unlikely.

Does the coaching panel rely on the redemption theory too much?
This is possible, as the response is just that. A reaction to a promise of faith rather then a proactive attitude based on respect driven by standards set.

I wonder if the theory of peer driven standards needs to be looked at , as I feel this has run its course for this group and they need to be held to higher level of accountability.

I would also question our ball movement in the forward half and transition game plan against the better sides too. We tend to dump kick, however hippy and daniher are not the contested beasts that we need for that type of game, they are lead up types with the agility to out maneuver their opponents and they just get out played and out marked by stronger structured defences. Our transition from half back has lacked the speed and overlap handball receive we use to see. Rich and starce were so damaging with that run from behind. They used to be able to take territory and become dangerous through the corridor. I just haven't seen that this year.

Lots to adjust for next year for sure and I would say a very important year coming for the coach in particular.

 

[MacMum]

This Zorko saga is not going away.....headline story atm on both HUN and DailyMail.

The club really needs to make a statement by standing him down and taking the captaincy off him. At least to be seen doing something because right now it looks like a very poor response from us.