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Geelong: Should we really respect them?
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How much of it is luck due to father/son selections and how much of it is player development?
For the record
Scarlett was meant to be a 3rd round pick anyway
Blake was a surprise draftee
Ablett was late 1st/early 2nd
Hawkins was top 3
Geelong have benifited, no doubt, it could be argued that it isn't luck but rather exceptional player development. How many go to Geelong and don't make it as a footballer?
Drafting Since 2001 (excluding last year)
Djerkurra, Hawkins Hogan, Varcoe, West, Owen, Gamble, Stokes, Prismall, Ablett, Egan, Tenace, Thurley, Blake, Spencer, Mackie, Lonergan, Callan, Moloney, Bartel, Kelly, Gardiner, Johnson, Ablett, Playfair, McCarthey, D.Johnson.
So of Geelong's draft picks only 1 never played a game suffering constant injury , He also came to the club with OP prior to being drafted which he did not reveal. What that says to me is while we draft well we must surely be developing our players very well too.
Underlined made it onto other lists after Geelong indicating they weren't far off.
I'd suggest player development has as much if not more to do with geelong success than any other factor and that surely is worthy of respect.
So if you come to Geelong you're pretty much garanteed to play AFL football if you work hard and you have a very good chance of having a long career. The same can't be said for a lot of clubs
For the record
Scarlett was meant to be a 3rd round pick anyway
Blake was a surprise draftee
Ablett was late 1st/early 2nd
Hawkins was top 3
Geelong have benifited, no doubt, it could be argued that it isn't luck but rather exceptional player development. How many go to Geelong and don't make it as a footballer?
Drafting Since 2001 (excluding last year)
Djerkurra, Hawkins Hogan, Varcoe, West, Owen, Gamble, Stokes, Prismall, Ablett, Egan, Tenace, Thurley, Blake, Spencer, Mackie, Lonergan, Callan, Moloney, Bartel, Kelly, Gardiner, Johnson, Ablett, Playfair, McCarthey, D.Johnson.
So of Geelong's draft picks only 1 never played a game suffering constant injury , He also came to the club with OP prior to being drafted which he did not reveal. What that says to me is while we draft well we must surely be developing our players very well too.
Underlined made it onto other lists after Geelong indicating they weren't far off.
I'd suggest player development has as much if not more to do with geelong success than any other factor and that surely is worthy of respect.
So if you come to Geelong you're pretty much garanteed to play AFL football if you work hard and you have a very good chance of having a long career. The same can't be said for a lot of clubs
Thurley played 7 games for Geelong before we offloaded him to the kangas. Owen was the one who was always injured, and apparently lied about having OP to medicos on draft camp or something.
I think the OP is right, Geelong shouldn't really be respected until we win a game against the "best of the rest" composite team in similar fashion to Australia vs. ICC 11 in cricket.
Edit: ha.
I think the OP is right, Geelong shouldn't really be respected until we win a game against the "best of the rest" composite team in similar fashion to Australia vs. ICC 11 in cricket.
Edit: ha.
Geelong are the side hey are because Wells is a genius and tey had two insanely succesful drafts.
In 1999 they got Joel Corey with their first rounder, picked up Mooney in the Colbert trade, used their extra 2nd round pick to grab Chapman at 31, grabbed Ling in the late 30's as well and then managed to snare Corey Enright with Pick 47. That is extraodinary recruiting in one draft with only one pick inside the Top 20. Then you go to 2001, they picked up Bartel in the first round, Kelly in the 2nd round, Stevie J in the 3rd round and of course Ablett in the 4th round.!
In 1999 they got Joel Corey with their first rounder, picked up Mooney in the Colbert trade, used their extra 2nd round pick to grab Chapman at 31, grabbed Ling in the late 30's as well and then managed to snare Corey Enright with Pick 47. That is extraodinary recruiting in one draft with only one pick inside the Top 20. Then you go to 2001, they picked up Bartel in the first round, Kelly in the 2nd round, Stevie J in the 3rd round and of course Ablett in the 4th round.!
So basically, through F/S, you only received your:
- Ruckman
- the best full-back in the comp
- the best onballer (and player) in the comp
- your full-forward (who would've arguably gone top 1-2 in his draft)
...plus also your 2007 Premiership CHF in N Ablett?
Spot on. The Premierships were built in two days. 99 and 01.
Especially in 01 when St Kilda and MELBOURNE entered the draft day with a better hand of picks.
It is player development, drafting and luck. The recipe for any Premiership i would say.
Nope sorry you are wrong. Through F/S we recieved a:
- lanky uncoordinated kid
- mediocre looking defender
- mildly talented undersized midfielder
- Very promising monster of a kid
plus also a kid nobody else would have even looked at.
We made them:
- Our ruckman
- the best fullback in the comp
- the best onballer (and player) in the comp
- our full-forward
plus also our 2007 Premiership CHF
Cousin of Daicos
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There was at least a LITTLE bit of luck involved. But that works both ways.
In 07, one more minute and you COULD have missed out on even PLAYING in the GF.
In 08, kick a little straighter and you could have won it.
In 09, Saints kicks little straighter and you lose it.
With NOTHING but bad luck, and could have had NO flags for all your H&A dominance. I know this is all irrelevant, but I'm just saying, luck has played SOME part in it. Not a BIG part, but a part.
watermelonslice
Club Legend
Of course. You need a little bit of luck for things to fall your way on the way to a flag. It's not just Geelong who got some of it. Just a few examples off the top of my head:
- 2002 Grand Final: If Pies had managed to kick that one extra goal, etc.
- 2005 Grand Final: If West Coast had converted one of their behinds into a goal, then Sydney may have lost.
- 2008 Grand Final: If we'd kicked straighter, if Hawthorn had been a little bit off, then we might have won the flag.
- 2009 Prelim: If Bulldogs had kicked more accurately, it could've been them in the Grand Final instead of St Kilda.
However, luck only gets you so far. You need still need a good team to take advantage of the your luck.
As comprehensively illustrated above, the 'luck' involved in a couple of father/sons coming off is dwarfed by the 'luck' involved in bottoming out (deliberately or otherwise) and getting draft picks.
However, fact remains that father/son is a small anomaly in this era of footy socialism. If Geelong has done best from it, which team has done worst? Melbourne might be near the bottom of the father/son ladder, I'm thinking.
However, fact remains that father/son is a small anomaly in this era of footy socialism. If Geelong has done best from it, which team has done worst? Melbourne might be near the bottom of the father/son ladder, I'm thinking.
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Surely a troll. There's some case to mount for being unable to stomach Hawthorn last year, or Adelaide 97,98 sides that were crap, then made finals won the flag and quickly went back to being crap again. Geelong have been good since 2004 (sans 2006), they've had a couple of unlucky finals campaigns but I think two flags in three years (with thier win-loss ratio) only just does them justice.
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I have this theory that team members like to mimic the best player in their team in the belief that it will make the rest of them better players. It can't be a coincidence that there's a blonde phase going through St Kilda, and a bald trend happening at Geelong!
Of course. You need a little bit of luck for things to fall your way on the way to a flag. It's not just Geelong who got some of it. Just a few examples off the top of my head:
- 2002 Grand Final: If Pies had managed to kick that one extra goal, etc.
- 2005 Grand Final: If West Coast had converted one of their behinds into a goal, then Sydney may have lost.
- 2008 Grand Final: If we'd kicked straighter, if Hawthorn had been a little bit off, then we might have won the flag.
- 2009 Prelim: If Bulldogs had kicked more accurately, it could've been them in the Grand Final instead of St Kilda.
However, luck only gets you so far. You need still need a good team to take advantage of the your luck.
Yeah that's the thing about luck.
People forget Brisbane had truckloads of it during their hat trick of flags.
In 01, their main rival was decimated with injuries for the second half of the year, and their other serious threat got eliminated with an after the siren goal.
In 02, their main rival fell over like a bitch, and then in the GF, a goal that should have been called a goal but wasn't gave them a leg up on a wet day when goals were at a premium and the opposition had the momentum.
In 03, their main rival again fell over, and their other threat had their most important player rubbed out by the tribunal the week before the GF.
Compare that to 04, where they didn't have the same kind of luck (Port didn't fall over, they had to play the PF in Melbourne when it should have been in Brisbane, they also copped a couple of important injuries during that series), and you can see that it plays a huge part in any premiership.
But like you say, you can't win the bloody things without being a good side no matter how much luck you get, so don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to take anything away from Brissy's performance.
Remember too, wise men have said that you make your own luck
Should they be respected? Of course they should, silly question really. What Geelong have achieved and the way they have gone about it absolutely commands respect. Any of us supporters from an opposition team would love to be in their position and quite simply i find it hard to understand anyone who thinks otherwise.
Yeah but you lost.
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Mmmm I think you sell both our teams a bit short there in terms of being able to get near Brisbane in their prime, it's that old argument of 'this team at their best vs that team at the best'....but really it all just comes down to how you go on the day, and it's not often two teams actually play as well as they can against each other.
Brisbane won 20 in a row 2001-2002, but then Collingwood got near them on GF day 2002, you could argue that Collingwood side was inferior to the current St Kilda one, but they still got close.
But for sure, that Brissy team had us well covered in terms of forwards....I think if Nathan Ablett had stayed on it might have helped comparison-wise, there's a fair chance he'd have been pretty good by now.
Doesnt change the facts.
Lions won 3 in a row in a side that all footy fans acknolwedge would account for Geelong comfortably. There were no weak link in Lions and no GF slip ups to Hawks when supposedly in their prime......
No shame in that - Brisbane are up their with sides like Melbourne of the 50's...the Cats IMHO are a shade below the Hawks of the 80s' but none the less a great side.
To be fair I think Voss, Black, Lappin, Ackermanis and Power eclipse your midfield.
Your fwd line isnt on the same page against Browne, Lynch, Bradshaw Im afraid...I dont think an honest trier in Nathan Ablett (who apart from name proved nothing to anyone...) changes anything.
and while you have a great defender in Scarlett.....Lions had at their peak - 2 Scott bros, Michael and Leppitsch.......I mean their supposed "weak" links were guys like Hart...who would walk into any other side....do yiou reckon Burns or Harley would? (Harleys a nice guy but hes finished and it showed this year).
Its not about doing a diservice to my side - Its about being realistic. St Kilda supporters know our sides strength has come from across the board as a team in 09...(Riewoldts helped but weve won when hes been held and almost did again in the GF..). We are not in the Lions class and yet had our way with Geelong for 3 qtrs.....
As for Collinwgood getting close to the Lions - from memory Brisbane went in with severe injury concerns and players getting jabbed left and right....I dont think that disproves anything...
If all footy fans acknowledge that the Lions would have accounted for the Cats comfortably then the question would never be raised, in the media or elsewhere.
Not all footy fans acknowledge it because the Cats played better seasons. Sure, it counts for squat in the long run, but you can;t say the Lions would account for Geelong comfortably and everyone acknowledges when Geelong had a superior winning percentage.
It is a discussion that is up for debate, not the open/close case you're making it out to be.
And unless you're saying that the St Kilda team of 2003 was better than the team of 2009, your comment is false.
Round 11, 2003
St Kilda 13.12.90
Brisbane 13.7.85
Not only was that Saints team close, it beat the Lions, and the 2009 team is a better team than what the 2004 team was.
Mate ave me your "winning % stats"on that basis St Kilda is the best side in 2009 - yet we aint cause it comes down to??
Ive no problem saying Cats are the best side this year. Equally Ive no problem in saying we wouldnt get near Lions.
Why the incredible insecurity from Geelong supporters "pretending" there is a debate to be had about this Geelong side apparently being better than a side that won 3 in a ROW?
Facts are Geelong lost 2008 to a side that didnt make the 8 in 09.
Brisbane Lions didnt drop those.
I actually think Cats are a great side - but Brisbanes performance stacks against dominant eras of decades past - eclipsing even the great Hawks 80's sides.......IMO Geelong's efforts aint in that space.
seriously this is silly.
shall I pull up the West Coast Eagles V Bulldogs score from this year to prove the Eagles are a better side? what about Brisbane V Geelong this year??
Brisbane Lions won 3 flags in a ROW - have Geelong done that?
I'm not insecure about anything. I personally believe Brisbane did have the better side and they deserve their plaudits. However, I also think the pro-Geelong argument has some merit.
As I said, it's not as open and shut as what you make it out to be.
Plus, it's not just Geelong supporters bringing it up, reputable football journalists who aren't Geelong fans have also raised the discussion, because it's worth being discussed.
Then don't use the argument that this year's Saints team wouldn't have gotten close to the Lions in their prime, when your very own club proved that anything can happen on any given day.
Christ, a few straight kicks from Geelong in 2008 and they could have had 3 in a row. A few straight kicks from St Kilda and they could have had their first flag in 43 years. A goal umpire calling an Anthony Rocca kick a goal instead of a point in 2002 and Brisbane may never have won three in a row.
Anything can happen on any given day.
green machine
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If it has some merit, but you don't agree with it being a one-eyed Geelong supporter, then how much merit can it really have? It has zero merit. You know it. Everyone knows it. Brisbane 3 flags, Geelong 2 flags. End of story.
Football scribes like to bring it up because they can write an article on it in 5 minutes and create some discussion.
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