Analysis Grundy, Cox and Cameron Discussion

[Tarkyn_24]

Two were "delivered" directly to his opponent, makes it hard to make a contest.

The one contest I'm clearly remembering and referring to is where Barrass ragdolled him when Grundy started in the optimal position. He finished out of position because he let himself be outbodied.

As shit as our delivery is, I don't remember instances where the ball was delivered poorly enough to blame the kicker. Happy for you to provide footage to back up the claim though - I haven't rewatched the game because why would I. Once at the ground was bad enough

 

[Seedsfan]

Actually yesterday it was. Grundy had absolutely no answer for Naitanui's leap. It was abundantly obvious he wasn't and couldn't play his regular game in the centre square. He was scarcely competitive in the ruck and he gave our midfielders pretty average service when he did win the ruck. On the other hand, Naitanui gave West Coast prime service.

He wasn't even really capable of beating Allen all that much while Nic was off the ground. He's been run into the ground with what Collingwood expect himto shoulder but he was a poor, tired man yesterday.

Allen won all of 4 hit outs he did absolutely nothing when he was in the ruck apart from win that one BS free kick.Nic Nat managed 7 hit outs to advantage while good Grundy had 4 of his own so it’s only plus 3.


Blaming Grundy is just an easy out for the under performing midfield. We have invested so much of the cap and picks into them and they fail to get the job done.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Allen won all of 4 hit outs he did absolutely nothing when he was in the ruck apart from win that one BS free kick.Nic Nat managed 7 hit outs to advantage while good Grundy had 4 of his own so it’s only plus 3.


Blaming Grundy is just an easy out for the under performing midfield. We have invested so much of the cap and picks into them and they fail to get the job done.

Oh our midfield was rubbish, but Grundy was crap too.

 

[Roverjg]

The fact they had a dominant mid field isn’t a reflection on Grundy

No it's not... but your constant retorts about Nic Nac and Grundy is drawing attention to it. Grundy was marked harshly yesterday because for so long he has played at a higher and consistent level. He had a lower game based on past performances but overall he was servicable. You are comparing Grundy and Nic Nat's stats. Look where Nic Nac's taps went compared to Grundy's. There is no doubt the WCE midfield also made Nic Nac look better

 

[Seedsfan]

You are comparing Grundy and Nic Nat's stats. Look where Nic Nac's taps went compared to Grundy's. There is no doubt the WCE midfield also made Nic Nac look better

Look I agree with that part look at last week v Geelong when Crisp started at the defensive position at the back of the circle and Grundy put it in his path with him on his left.

We don’t do this enough we love tapping it down in tight, we target the defensive hit zones and try and make sure we create a contest backing ourselves to win the contest

Two things happened yesterday a ruckman Nic Nat manages the same amount of hit outs Grundy rarely gets matched in that department and the mids got smashed.

 

[Ingy]

His not a forwards arseh*le

Agreed.

His arseh*le is not a forward's arseh*le.

His arseh*le is a ruckman's arseh*le. Possibly a ruckrover's arseh*le.

But not a forward's arseh*le. Not his

 

[Ingy]

Nic Nat had 7 to advantage compared to Grundy’s 4

What are these? Facts? Do you expect them to further your argument or something?

 

[Seedsfan]

What are these? Facts? Do you expect them to further your argument or something?

It’s just how many hit outs champion data said went to advantage. Just happens it’s a fair way off the 20 someone was claiming

 

[Ingy]

It’s just how many hit outs champion data said went to advantage. Just happens it’s a fair way off the 20 someone was claiming

Yep. I was being ironic mate. I was supporting your argument and the way you were evidencing it. Sorry I didn't make that clearer

 

[Forethought]

Grundy was given a big contract because he deserved it at the time. He could have got more if he went somewhere else, but he chose to stay as a Pie and had faith that the team would be successful moving forward.

At that time of him signing his contract we didn’t have much of an alternative. In Fact we only have Cox from that period.

Come 2022 and he gets a longterm injury. I like many other thought that would kill us this year. Low and behold it’s been the best thing to happen to us. I say that because for the last two years it was Grundy and a choice of 3 others, Lynch, Cox and Cameron, with no being chosen as the 2nd ruck.

8 games in from Grundys injury and we Now have that answer. It’s Cameron all the way by the Flemington straight.

what we should be celebrating is we now have a 5 year window to build around the likely best Rucking / Forward Rucking combination in the AFL. This I don’t believe would have happened without Grundys longterm injury.

Cameron’s hands and marking ability is elite and when likely used as a Forward Ruckman in years to come will be a very fruitful outcome for the Pies structure. Further the need for Grundy having to spend 90% game time is not required. We don’t lose much by way of Cameron going into the centre bounce and structurally he can set up behind the ball in needed when ball ins are in our deep 50m forward line.

Our forward structure over the coming years will allow us to have multiple set ups having a genuine Forward Ruckman. The mixture to be able to set up against oppo sides by having multiple marking targets to reducing it to more of a mobile Marking set is critical to having different gears or levels ro test the opposition defence out.

To now hear that the Jurno’s are now questioning the need for Grundy because he’s on big bucks and we are better off trading him to secure other role players is just stupid. We finally have a combination that will kill other sides for the future and the Media and other are saying we should throw this away.

How about we just not list a very average player on $250k that we are getting zero from and run with what is now a great combo. Problem solved.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[gouki88]

“what we should be celebrating is we now have a 5 year window to build around the likely best Rucking / Forward Rucking combination in the AFL”

Huh?

 

[lethalburns]

My hope is that Cameron maintains his form when he goes back to being #2.

It will make us less predictable in the middle and Grundy should have more in the tank if he is doing slightly reduced minutes.

We need to find better ways to utilize a fresher Grundy. He is still a very good talent.

 

[1eon]

This is what we're going to have to do going forward for sure, like it or not Grundy and his contract aren't leaving.

I think the fact that it hasn't killed us this year is only further proof that Grundy isn't a player worth building a team around. This is not meant with any disrespect to Brodie himself, as he's a great player. It's more due to the fact that an adequate ruckman isn't exactly a position that is coverted and rare in the landscape of AFL. Richmond and the Bulldogs in recent years won grand finals without the most dominate ruckman. In 2010 I wouldn't put Jolly in our top five or six either.

It was not a smart decision. Especially when we could have used to the money to potentially lure Tom Lynch which could have resulted in the 2019 premiership.

Defending Grundy himself and saying that it wasn't entirely his fault for courting the big contract is not exactly accurate though... I remember him declining to sign for a very long time and implying in the media that he wants to raise a family soon in Adelaide.

Either way, it's done now. Grundy got his contract and we don't have the money to chase a big forward. Which is a shame because I like goals more than hitouts.

 

[No SPIN]

Grundy was given a big contract because he deserved it at the time. He could have got more if he went somewhere else, but he chose to stay as a Pie and had faith that the team would be successful moving forward.

At that time of him signing his contract we didn’t have much of an alternative. In Fact we only have Cox from that period.

Come 2022 and he gets a longterm injury. I like many other thought that would kill us this year. Low and behold it’s been the best thing to happen to us. I say that because for the last two years it was Grundy and a choice of 3 others, Lynch, Cox and Cameron, with no being chosen as the 2nd ruck.

8 games in from Grundys injury and we Now have that answer. It’s Cameron all the way by the Flemington straight.

what we should be celebrating is we now have a 5 year window to build around the likely best Rucking / Forward Rucking combination in the AFL. This I don’t believe would have happened without Grundys longterm injury.

Cameron’s hands and marking ability is elite and when likely used as a Forward Ruckman in years to come will be a very fruitful outcome for the Pies structure. Further the need for Grundy having to spend 90% game time is not required. We don’t lose much by way of Cameron going into the centre bounce and structurally he can set up behind the ball in needed when ball ins are in our deep 50m forward line.

Our forward structure over the coming years will allow us to have multiple set ups having a genuine Forward Ruckman. The mixture to be able to set up against oppo sides by having multiple marking targets to reducing it to more of a mobile Marking set is critical to having different gears or levels ro test the opposition defence out.

To now hear that the Jurno’s are now questioning the need for Grundy because he’s on big bucks and we are better off trading him to secure other role players is just stupid. We finally have a combination that will kill other sides for the future and the Media and other are saying we should throw this away.

How about we just not list a very average player on $250k that we are getting zero from and run with what is now a great combo. Problem solved.

Thoughts anyone?

Agree - its completely ludicrous to think we should trade an AA, considered the best player in the game by Leigh Mathews.
Fly and his crew would be very average coaches, if they couldn't exploit this "gift" of Cameron blossoming, thereby allowing Grundy to be used in a more flexible/damaging role.

 

[lyfsux]

This is what we're going to have to do going forward for sure, like it or not Grundy and his contract aren't leaving.

I think the fact that it hasn't killed us this year is only further proof that Grundy isn't a player worth building a team around. This is not meant with any disrespect to Brodie himself, as he's a great player. It's more due to the fact that an adequate ruckman isn't exactly a position that is coverted and rare in the landscape of AFL. Richmond and the Bulldogs in recent years won grand finals without the most dominate ruckman. In 2010 I wouldn't put Jolly in our top five or six either.

It was not a smart decision. Especially when we could have used to the money to potentially lure Tom Lynch which could have resulted in the 2019 premiership.

Defending Grundy himself and saying that it wasn't entirely his fault for courting the big contract is not exactly accurate though... I remember him declining to sign for a very long time and implying in the media that he wants to raise a family soon in Adelaide.

Either way, it's done now. Grundy got his contract and we don't have the money to chase a big forward. Which is a shame because I like goals more than hitouts.

Lynch was already sealed up by Richmond in 2019

Grundy signed his contract in 2020 so I can't see how we would've lured Lynch

 

[AmericanMustard]

Alternatively we could trade Grundy for Levi Casboult

30

Levi Casboult

Age

34

Ht

199cm

Wt

104kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.9

3star

K

6.5

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

5.3

5star

T

1.7

4star

G

1.1

4star

D

10.1

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

2.6

2star

M

5.9

5star

T

1.3

2star

G

1.3

5star

D

9.2

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

3.0

3star

M

5.2

5star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.4

5star

and have Cameron in the ruck but a better presence down forward and save ourselves a cool 800k

Random name plucked out of the air, not even GC would trade casboult for Grundy

 

[jimmy35]

Hopefully they can compliment each other for us going forward. Brodes big strong and grunt in the middle and around the ground but needs to do more contested marking. Darce dangerous up forward and nice marking work around the ground when his hands are up and about. Not the best option as a number 1 ruck but a damn good forward/ruck.
For him to play more minutes on the ball Brodes is going to have be able to add more of a forward string to his bow. Hasn’t shown he’s capable of that too often though.
Interesting times.

 

[domus]

Gawn can be very damaging when he goes forward so perhaps Grundy could develop his ability to take contested marks and smash packs inside the forward fifty.

 

[Mark W]

I think the fact that it hasn't killed us this year is only further proof that Grundy isn't a player worth building a team around.

Lets have a closer look at Cameron the ruckman and whether Grundy's absence has "killed us" or not.

Against Carlton and Hawthorn, Cameron did well - he was was playing against two very young ruckman.

Against the Bullies Cameron won the hitouts, against another very young ruckman, but couldn't really direct his hitouts to our advantage and we got smashed in the clearances

Now lets look how he went against quality rucks:

Against Freo beaten in the ruck, but nullified Darcy so he wast too dominant

Against Richmond and GC Cameron was smashed.

So as a ruckman it seems to me that Cameron is at best middle of the road. He is big enough and strong enough to beat young green rucks, but Im not sure if that is any great accomplishment given Cameron's size and strength. However against quality rucks he isnt all that great. FWIW, Ive been surprised at how poor Cameron has been in the ruck, he is just not a particularly good tap ruckman and I thought he would do better. Around the ground, he has been very good. He is a very good mark, and I like the old fashioned way he plays ruck, plonks himself a kick behind play or at CHB to take intercept marks.

Now of course none of that argues against your central point that Grundy is being overpaid, but having watched a good Collingwood team fail in September from 2002-2009 mainly cause we had weak rucks, Im more than a bit hesitant of going down that road again

 

[manicpie]

It's a no brainer, trade Grundy and pay a bit of his salary, he suffers from Worpel Syndrome, going backwards every year

 

[sideswipe]

Lets have a closer look at Cameron the ruckman and whether Grundy's absence has "killed us" or not.

Against Carlton and Hawthorn, Cameron did well - he was was playing against two very young ruckman.

Against the Bullies Cameron won the hitouts, against another very young ruckman, but couldn't really direct his hitouts to our advantage and we got smashed in the clearances

Now lets look how he went against quality rucks:

Against Freo beaten in the ruck, but nullified Darcy so he wast too dominant

Against Richmond and GC Cameron was smashed.

So as a ruckman it seems to me that Cameron is at best middle of the road. He is big enough and strong enough to beat young green rucks, but Im not sure if that is any great accomplishment given Cameron's size and strength. However against quality rucks he isnt all that great. FWIW, Ive been surprised at how poor Cameron has been in the ruck, he is just not a particularly good tap ruckman and I thought he would do better. Around the ground, he has been very good. He is a very good mark, and I like the old fashioned way he plays ruck, plonks himself a kick behind play or at CHB to take intercept marks.

Now of course none of that argues against your central point that Grundy is being overpaid, but having watched a good Collingwood team fail in September from 2002-2009 mainly cause we had weak rucks, Im more than a bit hesitant of going down that road again

Agree - his game against Hawthorn was fantastic (hope it become something of a new normal), but not sure he has suddenly turned the corner into a quality AFL first ruckman. Good test for him this weekend.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I can only speak for myself but I was more than happy to let Grundy go rather than sign him on for 7 years on massive dollars. Even at his peak, he wasn't really a very good tap ruckman and it was being masked over by how good he was at ground level and around the ground. But I kind of understand why they may have felt they needed to do it at the itme.

Even in 2018 our midfield still was generally getting beaten most weeks as opposition mids just sharked to Grundy's taps and the Grand Final was a perfect example of what can happen when Grundy isn't having a great game.

The fact that Cameron is coming into his own so well in Grundy's absence only annoys me more

Because we could have had a top draft pick in exchange for Grundy as well as a shit tonne of cap space to keep De Goey and attract maybe another big name

 

[TakingThePies]

Grundy was given a big contract because he deserved it at the time. He could have got more if he went somewhere else, but he chose to stay as a Pie and had faith that the team would be successful moving forward.

At that time of him signing his contract we didn’t have much of an alternative. In Fact we only have Cox from that period.

Come 2022 and he gets a longterm injury. I like many other thought that would kill us this year. Low and behold it’s been the best thing to happen to us. I say that because for the last two years it was Grundy and a choice of 3 others, Lynch, Cox and Cameron, with no being chosen as the 2nd ruck.

8 games in from Grundys injury and we Now have that answer. It’s Cameron all the way by the Flemington straight.

what we should be celebrating is we now have a 5 year window to build around the likely best Rucking / Forward Rucking combination in the AFL. This I don’t believe would have happened without Grundys longterm injury.

Cameron’s hands and marking ability is elite and when likely used as a Forward Ruckman in years to come will be a very fruitful outcome for the Pies structure. Further the need for Grundy having to spend 90% game time is not required. We don’t lose much by way of Cameron going into the centre bounce and structurally he can set up behind the ball in needed when ball ins are in our deep 50m forward line.

Our forward structure over the coming years will allow us to have multiple set ups having a genuine Forward Ruckman. The mixture to be able to set up against oppo sides by having multiple marking targets to reducing it to more of a mobile Marking set is critical to having different gears or levels ro test the opposition defence out.

To now hear that the Jurno’s are now questioning the need for Grundy because he’s on big bucks and we are better off trading him to secure other role players is just stupid. We finally have a combination that will kill other sides for the future and the Media and other are saying we should throw this away.

How about we just not list a very average player on $250k that we are getting zero from and run with what is now a great combo. Problem solved.

Thoughts anyone?

Grundy leaving wouldn't have made us worse. We would have been able to get a stop gap, 2 firsts, salary cap room ect.

He still shouldn't be on his deal.

 

[GCPie]

Cameron kicks goals and can take a mark - Grundy no - poor skills by foot and hand and let's not mention the contested marking or defensive lapses, 50 meter penalties given away etc.,
Grundy's current contract is an impediment to the Pies salary cap for the next 5 years and we can thank the Buckley era for that millstone.
If he hadn't been given that contract Treloar may still be a Pie and we have next year to pay on his contract.
Rip the band aid off now - trade him for whatever you can get this year and move on.

 

[No SPIN]

It's a no brainer, trade Grundy and pay a bit of his salary, he suffers from Worpel Syndrome, going backwards every year

It’s a no brainer to the unimaginative