Review Hamish 2021

[John Who]

Sometimes it seems this board tries to fit everything into black and white (not talking race) categories, where there are many shades of grey. With Gooch, I feel like there was something in his attitude that caused his development to stall, whether he liked to party more than train, or didn't like the harder stuff when he had to step up against the bigger bodied men (was more physically developed as a kid than most of his U18 peers). Why did he never dominate a SANFL match? Even Poholke, who many said was found out at AFL level, dominated some SANFL games. Gooch had all the attributes on paper, and in athletic testing with no physical pressure he dominated, but we rarely saw his vertical leap or athleticism on an actual footy field. Should have had either elite overhead marking or chase down tackling. Coaches also gave him a rocket publicly for his attitude which never bodes well, then bad injuries at the wrong times hurt his chances in multiple seasons.

Gave me serious Atkins like, downhill skier vibes, might look great in a team like Richmond or Geelong where you've got other guys doing the hard grunt work for him, but in the most recent Crows game vs St Kilda, would he have been the one chasing in the 4th and sparking a massive come from behind win? Is he the guy to sacrifice his game for the other players on the field? Gut-running and tackling? Not sure. Richmond had a look at him for a free-hit in pre-season and didn't want him, everyone else passed mid-season. Is this our recruiting team's fault, or is it down to the player not leaving every stone un-turned to make himself the best. He had a taste of AFL, that is better than most footy players get a chance to do, and he may be relatively content now to go at 75% and be a decent VFL player. Just turned 23 though, so may still have time to pull the finger out and get another crack.

In AFL with the ball in hand, he did in general look better than Chayce Jones currently does, although hopefully Jones can work his way through all the voices in his head and find the player we hoped he would be. Looked better in the 2nd half against St Kilda with some of his lines and speedy forward forays. A win like that will do his confidence no harm, but still more to work on than most.

Sometimes hard to identify this sort of stuff just from watching U18 vision and conducting 3 interviews.
Recruiting, development, player attitude, physical development, injury.
What actually shocks me more than anything with the above is why half the players can't kick the ball to where they want while under pressure.

It's probably a combination of all the above IMO. Draft selection could have been used elsewhere instead of Gooch (although easier said in hindsight), his mental strength maybe not enough for the harshness of AFL level, and then the developmental aspects that may have hampered him. We did go through a period of heavy media scrutiny/attack, and that may well have affected Gooch as well as the other lads that have since moved on. Who really knows?

 

[Knightmare]

But even Butts was a highly rated by some. Knightmare had him in his top 20 in his draft year. Pretty sure Bicks was a fan also.

I was on my own in rating Butts in 2017 inside the top-20. I'm not even sure there was anyone who had him inside their top-40s. Certainly I was on my own of those online draft watchers in rating him highly.

I was seeing a Dec 31 b-day. Leading the comp in marks. Could intercept. Good height and endurance base. So I was thinking scope to develop in the long run.
His impact per possession at that time was my main knock (he could have 18d and 10m and he could feel quiet), and speed and 1v1 work could improve. To his credit, he has really developed a lot as a stopper and is now looking like an able component at AFL level. Hopefully he starts over time integrating more intercepting into his game and developing that balance.

*Note: Butts as many of you would be aware was rookied the following year in 2018. So there wasn't the support in clubland in 2017 either.

 

[Ozzie]

Luke Edwards equals another shitfest for the Crows with Tyson and Jackson in the background. I'm glad we passed on him.

 

[Peter Doherty]

I was on my own in rating Butts in 2017 inside the top-20. I'm not even sure there was anyone who had him inside their top-40s. Certainly I was on my own of those online draft watchers in rating him highly.

I was seeing a Dec 31 b-day. Leading the comp in marks. Could intercept. Good height and endurance base. So I was thinking scope to develop in the long run.
His impact per possession at that time was my main knock (he could have 18d and 10m and he could feel quiet), and speed and 1v1 work could improve. To his credit, he has really developed a lot as a stopper and is now looking like an able component at AFL level. Hopefully he starts over time integrating more intercepting into his game and developing that balance.

*Note: Butts as many of you would be aware was rookied the following year in 2018. So there wasn't the support in clubland in 2017 either.

I feel like someone else mentioned Butts being rated in his draft year at some point this year, maybe Brad Johnson on Fox.

Good call btw, our '18 draftees are slowly getting there!

 

[mattymac]

Ahhh dear, it was always going to happen when you've been proven wrong.

Love it.

This is some of your weaker posting.

You know it's not wrong.

You've just got your Captain Defender cape on with your Hamish undies on the outside.

Our midfield is gash.

The last top 10 midfielder Hamish drafted we're all holding our breath he can make it as a very pricey back pocket.

The pair of mids he drafted before that are no longer on our list.

 

[hey shorty]

This is some of your weaker posting.

You know it's not wrong.

You've just got your Captain Defender cape on with your Hamish undies on the outside.

Our midfield is gash.

The last top 10 midfielder Hamish drafted we're all holding our breath he can make it as a very pricey baw well ack pocket.

The pair of mids he drafted before that are no longer on our list.

We're talking about his drafting record, which is nowhere near as bad as you and some others would have us believe

 

[baldandbroke]

We all like the good guys Hamish finds - we also wonder what we could have had in hindsight.

Who does the job the way everyone imagines a recruiter should do it? Which club recruiter nails all their early picks AND gets bargains from the rookie and back end of the draft? Does anyone? I tend to think we imagine that these guys can identify talent beyond the average - but does it ever actually happen in reality?

 

[Southerntakeover]

Actually a very important role in the AFL

Pick is irrelevant.

Bachar Houli

Are you trying to demonstrate that it's a far less important position than midfield? If so you're doing a good job. The market recruits and pays top end half backs with a far lower premium than it does top end midfielders.

There is a substantial difference between 'there are some players that people consider to be good playing this position' and 'this is a position to place a premium on'. Spending first round picks in a super draft on questionable players who could not play the role drafted but could slot in in not critical roles would not be a success story.

And that's where the record falls apart. There have been far far too few genuine hits in important positions. We haven't drafted a genuine top flight midfielder in decades. Our 'wins' have been in lesser positions- third defenders and half back flankers, and we've had a number of premium draft picks simply bust.

 

[Mutineer]

Are you trying to demonstrate that it's a far less important position than midfield? If so you're doing a good job. The market recruits and pays top end half backs with a far lower premium than it does top end midfielders.

There is a substantial difference between 'there are some players that people consider to be good playing this position' and 'this is a position to place a premium on'. Spending first round picks in a super draft on questionable players who could not play the role drafted but could slot in in not critical roles would not be a success story.

And that's where the record falls apart. There have been far far too few genuine hits in important positions. We haven't drafted a genuine top flight midfielder in decades. Our 'wins' have been in lesser positions- third defenders and half back flankers, and we've had a number of premium draft picks simply bust.

Disagree, plenty of top end defenders on good coin and certainly plenty on more than most midfielders other than those right at the top end.

 

[Golumless]

For big wins - does Ben Keays counts as one at the moment? Rookie draft pick after being delisted by Brisbane, and is having a hell of a season at the moment.

Hamish record though, well, it screams "don't cheap out on your development coaches, don't hire a CEO that'll take their eyes off the ball, and whatever you do, don't make Burton your GM".

 

[DaKids]

If you’re going to judge old Hamish don’t you put together a kind of recruiters premiership table? And you base that table on certain measurements?

I don’t know but that is only fair isn’t it? Not that I’d have a clue on how to put that together! Can anyone here do that?

 

[DJ75]

If you’re going to judge old Hamish don’t you put together a kind of recruiters premiership table? And you base that table on certain measurements?

I don’t know but that is only fair isn’t it? Not that I’d have a clue on how to put that together! Can anyone here do that?

I'd guess you have to do a comparison of pick position, number of games played and average number of games played for that position.
It would be doable, but would take some time.

 

[DaKids]

I'd guess you have to do a comparison of pick position, number of games played and average number of games played for that position.
It would be doable, but would take some time.

Yeah fair enough. Might be too hard. I just reckon we don’t ever just say that player A didn’t get a kick last week - you go and have a look at his statistics and you measure it. Same for coaches - you know the win/loss ratio and flags won.

If everyone is going to pot the recruiter surely it has to be measured somehow. I mean maybe he’s poor but how would you know. What’s Carlton or St Kildas recruiters like? They better or worse?

 

[Mr_Moogle]

I don't think Hamish is the guy to deliver the players we need right now. We need elite midfielders. He's been our head of recruiting since 2012 and the only top end mid he's drafted was Matt Crouch and I think even that is a little generous given Crouch's limitations. He did make AA though so I can't reasonably say he isn't/wasn't an elite mid.

Look at all the expensive misses too. Milera & Jones both first rounders drafted to play midfield, both sent to the backline, Gallucci first rounder drafted to play midfield, was a bust.

His more speculative midfield picks have been poor too but that's to be expected from later ND & rookie picks.

If you want great defenders, Hamish is fine. If you want great forwards and mids, his record is sketchy at best.

 

[Golumless]

Yeah fair enough. Might be too hard. I just reckon we don’t ever just say that player A didn’t get a kick last week - you go and have a look at his statistics and you measure it. Same for coaches - you know the win/loss ratio and flags won.

If everyone is going to pot the recruiter surely it has to be measured somehow. I mean maybe he’s poor but how would you know. What’s Carlton or St Kildas recruiters like? They better or worse?

There are certainly ways to do it. Likelihood's probably a mixture of games played + rising stars + AA jumpers (both 22 and squad combined) + other metrics. Of course, due to how minimal the impact a recruiter can have on a team's success, you're likely to just stumble onto a metric that judges the developmental system of a club.

Maybe if you limited it to mid-to-late picks (say 3rd round & rookie picks), it might be a fairer reflection of a recruiter. That's when it likely becomes so speculative that the talent ID skills of a recruiter could genuinely make a difference by just bringing in players who could succeed, instead of no hopers. You'd have to make the call about where the cut off is for that one, and it is going to probably not be totally reflective. Personally, I wouldn't have the first-round picks included because frankly if a player is drafted in the first round, they most likely have the game to be a best 22 player at worst case, and it's fully on the club's development system to make it happen. Even the second round might not be the best as you still should be getting best 22 players around that point.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

This is a list of our recruits since 2012. Willing to give Hamish a pass for those seasons where we were under draft sanctions (2012/13). Even taking those years out of consideration, it's still ugly reading if you're looking for quality midfielders and forwards.

 

[Scorpus]

I guess the question on Hamish recruiting midfielders is: at the pick we had, did we pass on an obviously better midfielder?

2014
Jake Lever was a successful pick, and the next best midfielder not tied to an Academy was Touk Miller taken at pick 29. If we didn't take Lever we were practically guaranteed a mediocre player.

2015
Wayne Milera taken at 11 meant we missed the premium mids like Clayton Oliver as we didn't have a high enough pick. The next best mids were probably Jade Gresham - who IMO is good but not significantly better - and Josh Dunkley who was taken in the second round.

We also picked Doedee who was a success.

2016
Jordan Gallucci was a clear fail. Jarrod Berry was taken two picks later and is clearly better, and later in that draft players like Shai Bolton were selected.

2017
Darcy Fogarty in my opinion is progressing nicely. The next few picks were Zac Bailey and Ed Richards as midfielders, and in the second round you had Tim Kelly who definitely would have left. We didn't finish low enough to get a premium mid.

2018
Chayce Jones is looking like a fail considering the availability of Zac Butters several picks later. However that is the only midfielder we really missed, considering how Hately and others are tracking.

McHenry is looking an appropriate pick for his position in the draft. Guys taken after include Sturt, Duursma, Stocker and Collier-Dawkins who I think he sits among in terms of quality

2019
Fischer McAsey for me will always be a fail if we play him as a KPD, but 2019 was a poor midfield draft. The only player we passed on was Caleb Serong, with others like Flanders, Kemp, Stephens not exactly setting the world on fire. Arguably we selected the second best midfielder in Harry Schoenberg anyway

Conclusion
Looking back across the drafts I think we made pretty solid choices in the first rounds of 2014, 2015, and 2017, with a borderline on 2019. We didn't really pass up on a significant number of quality midfielders, and especially in 2014 and 2015 we simply did not have a good enough draft pick to get an elite mid.

In fact in most of these years our players are going no better or worse than most other selections taken shortly after. In some drafts we would have needed to make a large reach to get the player that turned out to be the next best available midfielder.

The 2016 draft was the biggest fail in my opinion, an absolute shocker. 2018 I think gets an unfair wrap as outside of Butters most other available picks are going about as well as Jones, or in many cases worse. But it's still not a win yet. 2019 hinges on whether McAsey becomes good and it's too early to tell, however we also didn't pass up on a significant bulk of midfield talent to take him.

I think for the most part some on here expect to be able to pick a gun midfielder with a pick between 8 and 20. In reality that rarely happens, and is draft dependent. I would be a lot more critical of Hamish if he was drafting Gallucci or Milera types with pick 5, rather than the double-digit picks he actually used.

The bigger questions for me are things like, did we make the right choice picking Fogarty instead of (say) Oscar Allen, rather than any of the midfield talent around those picks.

From here the only way we build an elite midfield is getting low picks. Stuff in the 1-6 range is where we need to be. That is where across all of these drafts the truly elite midfielders have (mostly) come from. Guys like Petracca, Oliver, Parish, Taranto, McCluggage, McGrath, Brayshaw, Cerra, Walsh, Rozee, Rowell, Anderson... we are talking the best picks in the draft to get them

 

[jackster83]

Doing a Hamish best 22 is an interesting exercise. Note I'm not counting trades or FA's.

B: Lever, Hartigan, Doedee
HB: Milera, Keath, Hamill
C: Sholl, Greenwood, Atkins
HF: Murphy, Fogarty, McHenry
F: McGovern, Thilthorpe, Cameron
R: ROB, M. Crouch, Keays
IC: McAdam, Schoenberg, Kelly, Himmelberg
Sub: Butts

Thoughts:
We're champs at drafting and developing defenders
All the mids we draft are either completely inside or outside. Very few balanced mids.
Cameron has been a huge loss. We've not even come close to replacing him
We've drafted some decent forwards but being locked into Tex/JJ/Lynch ended up being costly

 

[DaKids]

I guess the question on Hamish recruiting midfielders is: at the pick we had, did we pass on an obviously better midfielder?

2014
Jake Lever was a successful pick, and the next best midfielder not tied to an Academy was Touk Miller taken at pick 29. If we didn't take Lever we were practically guaranteed a mediocre player.

2015
Wayne Milera taken at 11 meant we missed the premium mids like Clayton Oliver as we didn't have a high enough pick. The next best mids were probably Jade Gresham - who IMO is good but not significantly better - and Josh Dunkley who was taken in the second round.

We also picked Doedee who was a success.

2016
Jordan Gallucci was a clear fail. Jarrod Berry was taken two picks later and is clearly better, and later in that draft players like Shai Bolton were selected.

2017
Darcy Fogarty in my opinion is progressing nicely. The next few picks were Zac Bailey and Ed Richards as midfielders, and in the second round you had Tim Kelly who definitely would have left. We didn't finish low enough to get a premium mid.

2018
Chayce Jones is looking like a fail considering the availability of Zac Butters several picks later. However that is the only midfielder we really missed, considering how Hately and others are tracking.

McHenry is looking an appropriate pick for his position in the draft. Guys taken after include Sturt, Duursma, Stocker and Collier-Dawkins who I think he sits among in terms of quality

2019
Fischer McAsey for me will always be a fail if we play him as a KPD, but 2019 was a poor midfield draft. The only player we passed on was Caleb Serong, with others like Flanders, Kemp, Stephens not exactly setting the world on fire. Arguably we selected the second best midfielder in Harry Schoenberg anyway

Conclusion
Looking back across the drafts I think we made pretty solid choices in the first rounds of 2014, 2015, and 2017, with a borderline on 2019. We didn't really pass up on a significant number of quality midfielders, and especially in 2014 and 2015 we simply did not have a good enough draft pick to get an elite mid.

In fact in most of these years our players are going no better or worse than most other selections taken shortly after. In some drafts we would have needed to make a large reach to get the player that turned out to be the next best available midfielder.

The 2016 draft was the biggest fail in my opinion, an absolute shocker. 2018 I think gets an unfair wrap as outside of Butters most other available picks are going about as well as Jones, or in many cases worse. But it's still not a win yet. 2019 hinges on whether McAsey becomes good and it's too early to tell, however we also didn't pass up on a significant bulk of midfield talent to take him.

I think for the most part some on here expect to be able to pick a gun midfielder with a pick between 8 and 20. In reality that rarely happens, and is draft dependent. I would be a lot more critical of Hamish if he was drafting Gallucci or Milera types with pick 5, rather than the double-digit picks he actually used.

The bigger questions for me are things like, did we make the right choice picking Fogarty instead of (say) Oscar Allen, rather than any of the midfield talent around those picks.

From here the only way we build an elite midfield is getting low picks. Stuff in the 1-6 range is where we need to be. That is where across all of these drafts the truly elite midfielders have (mostly) come from. Guys like Petracca, Oliver, Parish, Taranto, McCluggage, McGrath, Brayshaw, Cerra, Walsh, Rozee, Rowell, Anderson... we are talking the best picks in the draft to get them

I reckon that looks like a pretty fair take - and thanks to the other boys (or girls) who also had a go.

I reckon the take away from what you’re saying is pretty much shown up by last year when Hamish had that 2nd pick. Did he nail that one - sure did.

These blokes are never perfect I suppose but sure helps if you’ve got 1-5. I reckon the blokes doing some other teams wouldn’t stack up too well considering the top picks they’ve had

 

[Southerntakeover]

Disagree, plenty of top end defenders on good coin and certainly plenty on more than most midfielders other than those right at the top end.

Ordinarily if you want to disagree with a proposition you need to provide something that contradicts it and not agree.

If the very best defenders are paid more than mediocre midfielders but a lot less than the best midfielders then it means that the position is valued lower comparatively.

 

[ABAB]

This is a list of our recruits since 2012. Willing to give Hamish a pass for those seasons where we were under draft sanctions (2012/13). Even taking those years out of consideration, it's still ugly reading if you're looking for quality midfielders and forwards.

Looks like good quality midfielders drafted of late and in 2013 with M.Crouch and Cameron as the quality small forward, KPF take a bit longer to develop and who knows what McGovern could have become if he had continue his development here and didn't leave for 5 years $800K per year contract. Himmelberg is so frustrating, showed he has the talent to be a good forward but either drop the mark after getting into very good position or doesn't convert a seemingly easy set shot at goal.

2016 was a big midfielder drafting miss with Gallucci the pacy midfielder Pyke wanted but wasn't willing to run defensively and Poholke was too good for SANFL but not good enough for the AFL, so did Hamish get that pick right and it was our development which couldn't get Poholke to the next level?

 

[Red mist]

Not really, I'm genuinely hopeful with Hinge makes it.

I suppose you could say I'm genuinely hopeful to the point I'm hesitant to judge anything to do with the Hinge pick, and if it was a good idea at this point.



Not rating a player, and rating someone higher are different concepts.

I don't at this point either, the first four all look like good picks at this very early point (as they all should), and Rowe looks ok. Not setting the world on fire, but could wedge himself in our squad for a long while yet with a big preseason.



It's the start of the 3rd round (before NGAs/FS). Near smack bang in the middle of the draft if anything, if not starting to become a late pick depending on the year. The only caveat would be including the rookie draft, but even then that's not deep enough to make a pick in the late 30s anywhere but the middle.

It's a hard sell to persuade to me that anything beyond the typical first round (picks 1-18, none of this 26 picks in the first round nonsense that's propped up in recent times) is an early draft pick in the AFL system.

Lol, you grab a ticket while in the change rooms, Loki

 

[Jirkago75]

If you’re going to judge old Hamish don’t you put together a kind of recruiters premiership table? And you base that table on certain measurements?

I don’t know but that is only fair isn’t it? Not that I’d have a clue on how to put that together! Can anyone here do that?

I thought he built us a premiership team and if not for some bad luck. 2017 was a good team and if McGovern and B Smith play, who knows. We all complain but with hindsight, we’d all pick the right players and avoid the duds.

 

[Sanders]

I thought he built us a premiership team and if not for some bad luck. 2017 was a good team and if McGovern and B Smith play, who knows. We all complain but with hindsight, we’d all pick the right players and avoid the duds.

That team was off the back of Rendell’s picks

 

[Jirkago75]

That team was off the back of Rendell’s picks

Oh, that’s not good.