Hawthorn 2012

[Bayer_]

Truth is the hawks never adequatly replaced crawford Campbell or Croad

Bullshit. Campbell was a merely strong bodied ruckman capable of negating the better rucks. Bailey is streets better, and we're only seeing this now, of course. Hence he beat your rucks.

Crawford, maybe not - he was a once in a generation player that combined speed, hardness at the contest, and silky skills. Then again, he was a long way from his a-game in 08. We have some a replacement coming in through Savage, but, as I said, Crawf's not one you can easily replace. If he was, Collingwood would have a player of his equal - which they don't.

Croad, yes. We lost an elite KPD, and haven't found a replacement.

 

[dipper86]

. Campbell was a merely strong bodied ruckman capable of negating the better rucks. Bailey is streets better, and we're only seeing this now, of course. Hence he beat your rucks.

Mate, You're selling Campbell very short, in his prime in 08 he was massive, he did more around the ground than Bailey has ever done, taking countless saving marks in defence etc. I never seen our midfielders having to go third man up ith Campbell, this is clear indication that our coaching staff has no faith in Bailey.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Mate, You're selling Campbell very short, in his prime in 08 he was massive, he did more around the ground than Bailey has ever done, taking countless saving marks in defence etc. I never seen our midfielders having to go third man up ith Campbell, this is clear indication that our coaching staff has no faith in Bailey.

What the?

 

[Throbbie Walls]

No key position players, no rucks and an aging plodding midfield.....cant see they have a lot of upside.

You don't rate Buddy, Roughead, Bailey, Hale and Gibson.

 

[dipper86]

What the?

Sorry the Brownlow was getting the better of me while i was posting

What i meant to say was that the coaching staff had no trust in Bailey to get the job done on either Mumford and Jolly, we had the 3rd man up at every opportunity. Which meant there was a free opposition player around the contest. I don't think we wanted a repeat performance of the Ottens demolition in which he hand fed the Geelong on ballers at will.

In saying that, another pre season under Bailey and further development will see see him hopefully hold his own.

My objection was in regards to selling Campbell short...he was an incredible ruckman for us....

 

[raff23]

Should finish top 2. I think the top 4 will consist of Collingwood, Hawthorn, Carlton and Fremantle.

Gilham back allows Schoey to develop in the VFL (something he clearly needs to do). Roughead makes them a lot better as far as marking power goes. Question marks over Roughy though...how quickly will he be able to get back up to speed?

If i was a Hawks supporter i would expect a premiership next year. Anything less is probably a failure. I think Collingwood and Carlton would be in the same boat with their aims for next year.

If the Hawks can get a developed ruck or key back this trade period then they should be very hard to beat.

Easily the best disposal skills in the competition. Very precise with the ball and rarely make mistakes.

dont understand that statement, another pre season under max bailey's belt and we will be fine in that area there will be no recruiting of ruckman at all, we also have 2 waiting in the wings who can potentially play next year who have a lot of promise. Key backs i would agree with in the short term, getting someone like warnock from the dees, wouldnt cost that much, is the right age (26-27) so would slot straight in and would allow guys like gibson and stratton to play different roles and be more influential to the team. Were only a bit of tweaking away from having all the cards in place, its a matter of producing the goods next year.

 

[themarkedman72]

bailey will have more games in the ruck and is clearly quality.

breust is the small forward.

savage and isaac smith will be the outside run and are as quick as any in the league.

Hawks dont need to bring in anyone as shoe and Lisle will develop into key backs.

people crapping on about our injuries being over=rated should note that we had 18 players unavailable at one point. basically the worst weeks lost in to injury in the league so get a clue.

Hawks are a threat next year, how big depends on alot of things. we shall see.

also our mids arent old...mitchell is the oldest and is 29 next year four months younger is burgoyne. then like 16 months to hodge...ya dreaming they are in their peak.

 

[Paul Kersey]

Bring on 2012. Haha.

 

[MrFujiMoto]

Good argument Buddy Guy

I second his argument. You call a first year player and a 20 year old KPP player chokers. That sir is why je responded the way he did. Glad you have nothing to do with out list management

 

[Sin City]

Can't wait to see what Smith can produce now he's got a feel the top level.

 

[Two Eyes]

Hawks shouldn't delude themselves too much about Friday night. They only dominated 2 quarters (2nd and 3rd). The first was evens and they got pansed in the last. Let's not also forget that the Pies were severely hampered by injuries to Jolly and Reid, which 'coincidentally' led to the hawks period of dominance.

At the end of the day you lost to a team battling injury and form because your players lack the fitness of a genuine flag contender.

You got beaten by the team likely to finish second. Had you bradburied your way into another GF Geelong would have dispatches you with ease.

 

[tazhawk]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You forgot to add IMO

All your post is just that, an opinion.

IMO put Roughead into that Hawks team the other night and the Hawks win easily.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

This thread was always headed for disaster.

Hawk fans trying to justify that we're not that bad
Non-hawk fans trying to prove that we're miles off the pace.

In 2011 we handled everyone below us comfortably, and couldn't get the job done against anyone above us. That says we're a perfect 3rd for 2011, and I can live with that.

For hawks to improve next year it will require:

1. us to find the right balance of talls.
Franklin, Roughead, Bailey, Hale, Gilham are the tall timber we'd want in our best 22. Of those two are coming off severe injuries. One has only just done his first full season after 5 or so years on the list. Renouf is the other tall that would be considered, and is just about at the stage where ruckmen mature (4 or so seasons into his career).

So does Roughead come back and try to perform the Ruck/Fwd role? Can we play Roughead and Hale in the same team or will we be too slow and top-heavy? Can Gilham hold Full Back and allow Birchall, Gibson and Stratton to play mobile attacking defenders with a nous for defence? Lot of questions there. Is Schoenmakers part of the plan? Can he get the blunders out of his game with more experience? I think so but it remains to be seen.

2. The young fellas to progress.
Bailey, Whitecross, Shiels, Savage, Breust, Smith, Puopolo and Suckling all made huge contributions to our performance in 2011. We would not be top 4 without these guys, all had huge games at different times. Can any of them turn into consistent A graders? Will they all progress? Will they regress? Huge room for improvement but anyone objective view will say that some will improve, some will go the other way.

3. Return from Injury
Xav Ellis, Renouf, Roughead, Gilham. Even if they're not considered starting 22 by some, they're 4 premiership players that just couldn't get a sustained run at it in 2011. If Ellis can have a full pre-season for once and put some meat on his bones we'll have a damn good player. Gilham had an ACL - in my view it takes players an extra season of playing time after an ACL to get back to their best. Roughead had an achillies - does anyone come back well from that? Renouf had some kind of inner organ damage.

4. Geelong and Collingwood to drop down a peg
These two sides are better than us right now. Collingwood's form has tapered off at the end of the season, so the '3 points off Collingwood's level' might just be a poor assessment of our comparative lists. Geelong have regenerated nicely, but if they have a raft of departures after they win the flag hawks may have the cattle to catch up (especially if Ottens isn't there to destroy us next year!)

5. For the other sides to remain behind us
Most fans only look at the sides above them. But think of St Kilda last year, and the year before, they probably thought they weren't too far off. They dropped off the pace and before they knew it Hawks, Carlton, Geelong, West Coast all went past them unexpectedly. Who knows, in 2012 we could see North, Sydney and Fremantle push up to top 4 contention while the hawks stagnate.

6. A good run with injuries
Call it an excuse or call it a reason - it's a fundamental fact of footy that you need luck with injuries to win the flag. Injuries to key personnel, especially at the wrong end of the season are disastrous for any team. Two-week injuries here and there can be managed, but broken bones and knee recos, etc just ruin your chances. (St Kilda: Lenny Hayes, Freo: half their side).


So all in all, the hawks have a good list and a good platform to launch into 2012. I'd love an extra quality tall in the side for 22 games next year, that would give me confidence that we'll be top 4 again - but there is just so much that needs to go right for all that to happen.

 

[yeee_haaaa!!!!!]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You forgot to add IMO

All your post is just that, an opinion.

IMO put Roughead into that Hawks team the other night and the Hawks win easily.

if, but, could have, should have, would have......but didn't. hawks since 2008 in a nutshell

yeah maybe roughead would have made a difference. maybe nathan brown would also have made a difference if avail to the pies instead of having to gamble on a restricted reid? who knows?

bottom line - hawks had their chances with the cattle on the field on fri night and they weren't good enough to get the job done

 

[Pessimistic]

Hawks shouldn't delude themselves too much about Friday night. They only dominated 2 quarters (2nd and 3rd). The first was evens and they got pansed in the last. Let's not also forget that the Pies were severely hampered by injuries to Jolly and Reid, which 'coincidentally' led to the hawks period of dominance.

At the end of the day you lost to a team battling injury and form because your players lack the fitness of a genuine flag contender.

You got beaten by the team likely to finish second. Had you bradburied your way into another GF Geelong would have dispatches you with ease.

I'm betting the margin on saturday is substantially larger than our QF 31 pts to geelong.

we were in that for 2 quarters too

If anything friday night showed some pies 'stars' cant keep it up into a finals campaign, esp when the heat is on !

I like how wellingham said the pies played "within themselves" - truth is they didnt know which way to turn in the pressure - and geelong will be the same in spades - Swan knows this.

You have to consider the possibility the pies game plan has been picked apart, like hawthotns was in 2009

 

[Slattery_20]

Hawk fans trying to justify that we're not that bad
Non-hawk fans trying to prove that we're miles off the pace.

Pretty much.

Who knows. Another couple of smart recruits and some more good coaching you could do anything, as of right now, there are 2 better sides and 2 within striking distance

Daresay if you had the week off, rather than the Pies, that half a kick could've been reversed.

 

[Two Eyes]

Hawks shouldn't delude themselves too much about Friday night. They only dominated 2 quarters (2nd and 3rd). The first was evens and they got pansed in the last. Let's not also forget that the Pies were severely hampered by injuries to Jolly and Reid, which 'coincidentally' led to the hawks period of dominance.

At the end of the day you lost to a team battling injury and form because your players lack the fitness of a genuine flag contender.

You got beaten by the team likely to finish second. Had you bradburied your way into another GF Geelong would have dispatches you with ease.

 

[MaddAdam]

Much like the French Revolution, way too early to tell.

Can Roughy come back from that injury at 100 per cent? He may well, he may not. It may be he ends up like John Longmire, able to play a serviceable role but never himself again.

The mids are a year older but they aren't pensionable yet.

If they have an entirely injury free season, they could well end up top 2. But nobody does have an entirely injury free season. Buddy does a knee in Rd1 and things look very different.

I think though they'll struggle to make a GF without a proper good quality tall defender.

Gibson had the year of his career and when push came to shove, they lost two finals because they couldn't handle big power marking forwards.

Gilham is a good player but he's not the size needed for the beasts.

Brian Lake could well be the answer.

 

[Pessimistic]

5. For the other sides to remain behind us
Most fans only look at the sides above them. But think of St Kilda last year, and the year before, they probably thought they weren't too far off. They dropped off the pace and before they knew it Hawks, Carlton, Geelong, West Coast all went past them unexpectedly. Who knows, in 2012 we could see North, Sydney and Fremantle push up to top 4 contention while the hawks stagnate.

I reckon the current top 3 have a list of about 30 players each who can rotate players and still account for most of the rest of the pack in H&A

I dont expect wholesale retirements (not even geelong) so the bar for top 4 will go up next year if anything

St Kilda does not have that deep a list, and the top 12 is even skinnier
I dont think Carlton or west coast do.

Hawks didnt have a deep list in 2008 and came out of the top 4 with a few injuries

 

[Flinch]

Hawks shouldn't delude themselves too much about Friday night. They only dominated 2 quarters (2nd and 3rd). The first was evens and they got pansed in the last. Let's not also forget that the Pies were severely hampered by injuries to Jolly and Reid, which 'coincidentally' led to the hawks period of dominance.

At the end of the day you lost to a team battling injury and form because your players lack the fitness of a genuine flag contender.

You got beaten by the team likely to finish second. Had you bradburied your way into another GF Geelong would have dispatches you with ease.

Are you Carlton in disguise?

 

[themarkedman72]

Hawks shouldn't delude themselves too much about Friday night. They only dominated 2 quarters (2nd and 3rd). The first was evens and they got pansed in the last. Let's not also forget that the Pies were severely hampered by injuries to Jolly and Reid, which 'coincidentally' led to the hawks period of dominance.

At the end of the day you lost to a team battling injury and form because your players lack the fitness of a genuine flag contender.

You got beaten by the team likely to finish second. Had you bradburied your way into another GF Geelong would have dispatches you with ease.

looks like someone is re-writing history...pies where the bradbury on friday...fell over the line

 

[le dominateur]

I can see the Hawks sliding down the ladder big time next year. Their gameplan was exposed by the Pies and they crumbled under pressure.

 

[feathers]

I can see the Hawks sliding down the ladder big time next year. Their gameplan was exposed by the Pies and they crumbled under pressure.

looked like it was the pies gameplan that was exposed ，from where i was sitting

 

[Leather Poisoning]

I can see the Hawks sliding down the ladder big time next year. Their gameplan was exposed by the Pies and they crumbled under pressure.

Collingwood didn't expose our gameplan at all

Keeping Collingwood to just 9 goals when they've got 2.5 key forwards and we don't have a single KP sized defender suggests our game plan was pretty good.

If anything, Hawthorn exposed Collingwood's game plan, but didn't have the personnel, composure or sustained effort to win.

Clarkson's tactics worked a treat - most expected us to get smashed by around 8 goals.

 

[Kurtley Beale]

I can see the Hawks sliding down the ladder big time next year. Their gameplan was exposed by the Pies and they crumbled under pressure.

Yeah and Carlton wont lose a game for the next 58 years winning every Grand Final by over 100 points. Oh and Judd will Captain all of them and win the Norm Smith in all of them..