Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Hollow Knight]

And of course you’ve called out his previous comments that rise to ridiculous levels? I’m guessing not

All I can see is that it has completely devolved to the point where there is no pretence of substance at all.

 

[Sausages]

Mods.....

 

[martinson]

All I can see is that it has completely devolved to the point where there is no pretence of substance at all.

You can understand why I have him on ignore.

 

[nup]

I'm totally a fence sitter on this but I can't help but find the Lions statement intriguing

"In a statement, the Lions said Fagan was not consulted as part of Hawthorn's review"

Does this suggest the report has been compiled without interviews with the accused? Surely the report authors would immediately question the people accused and enter that in the report??? I'm happy to stand corrected

Please don't take this as support for either side but the allegations just don't add up in the format presented. I'd certainly be waiting till at least the accused have added context and content to the allegations before making any judgement.

I quoted the Hawks CEO a few pages back where he specifically stated that is was limited to interviews of past First Nations players and staff.

 

[FLVanLandingham]

I guess this thread is now just a fire-pit for pent up emotions.

rationality has gone, and really what can be discussed until more is heard? the AFL investigation and any of our own will take a while. The follow-on actions of who will take charge while this goes on etc, will we need another coach can be discussed, but it seems this has devolved into an good ol' internet dumpster fire.

gl everyone, stay happy and sane. maybe avoid this thread if you want to stay it

 

[Brett C]

All I can see is that it has completely devolved to the point where there is no pretence of substance at all.

Calling out patently ridiculous posts will always have substance in my view.

Especially when posters feel free to post what they like and then have the most fragile of glass jaws when challenged on their posts

 

[Saucery]

I guess this thread is now just a fire-pit for pent up emotions.

rationality has gone, and really what can be discussed until more is heard? the AFL investigation and any of our own will take a while. The follow-on actions of who will take charge while this goes on etc, will we need another coach can be discussed, but it seems this has devolved into an good ol' internet dumpster fire.

gl everyone, stay happy and sane. maybe avoid this thread if you want to stay it

Yes many of us are suffering a dissonance of faith, but we all have our own lives, our own families.

Far more important than some people who can kick a ball better than other people.

 

[martinson]

I'm not harassing you, just replying.

I didn't need to trawl through your posts about covid because you were so aggressive towards any one who disagreed with your pronunciation that it was just a small thing and would be gone in weeks.

Harassment needs to be about a personal attack against someone in ridicule or mockery, I have simply asked you to stop harassing me. Twice.

Mate just put him on ignore. Then it's over.

 

[Fagenslions36]

How can you have an investigation and not speak to the people at the centre or it like Clarkson , fagan and whoever else is there . Seems illogical they these blokes have no been hung out to dry without any form of consultation with them .

 

[Saucery]

Mate just put him on ignore. Then it's over.

Yeah you are right, thanks.

 

[nup]

Despite my attempts to highlight what I consider to be important questions that should be focussed on I do want to make it clear that I acknowledge that whatever you want to call it 'socially acceptable racism' resulting from the evolution over past centuries to whatever form it is now is unacceptable to me and I am united with everyone trying to see things through the eyes of Indigenous Australians across the board and figuring out how we go forward

 

[BuntonRules]

Time to flick on AFL 360 and see what Gerard believes I should think about all this. Sigh.

Out of this whole saga, Eddie Betts is a voice that must be listened to. His story about the swimming pool was as important as those in this report.

 

[martinson]

Despite my attempts to highlight what I consider to be important questions that should be focussed on I do want to make it clear that I acknowledge that whatever you want to call it 'socially acceptable racism' resulting from the evolution over past centuries to whatever form it is now is unacceptable to me and I am united with everyone trying to see things through the eyes of Indigenous Australians across the board and figuring out how we go forward

Any reasonable intelligent person would agree with that.

Then you have the other 50% of the population.

 

[Sausages]

Any reasonable intelligent person would agree with that.

Then you have the other 50% of the population.

50%?

Crikey old china, can I have some of YOUR sausages?

 

[lioninthesand]

I've cruised the Hawks board - many devastated fans, basically same expressions as here.

Anyway, different posters are talking about how Clarkson was known to arrive unannounced at players homes - this is accepted, no one is arguing that it didn't happen. People are saying it was viewed as a caring isn't he lovely thing (Clarkson had never been 'lovely'. Obsessive, focused but not not lovely). They are now rethinking how they view that behaviour and it isn't getting glowing praise.

Apparently Clarkson has fronted up to players on a holiday in America without notice (assume he was already there), would get players to meet him at random places out of work hours, bought a player a dog because he thought he was lonely without asking if the player wanted the dog (dog was returned after a few days - player definately didn't want a dog) and other confirmations that Clarkson regularly blurred the boundaries.

Wanting to be known as a warm and fuzzy family club doesn't make it family. It's a workplace covered by rules about abuse of power.

Listen to Luke Hodges warning about needing mechanisms in place to control Clarkson if you hire him, because if left on a loose reign he will basically go nuts and take control of every area of the footy club. If he is capable of controlling board members, it’s not hard to believe he would be micro managing and over controlling 19 year olds with no support around them, no matter their back ground or race.

 

[martinson]

50%?

Crikey old china, can I have some of YOUR sausages?

I was gunna go 80 but then thought I'd be offending some of our brethren here.

 

[Gadzorks]

Watching 360. This is going to be a train wreck. “Do they need to be totally exonerated to continue in the game?”
“Yes I think they do.”
Eddie Betts recounted a story that early this year a security guard at the local pool approached him and asked him to get out (he was nursing his baby)
When he asked why he was told that an elderly couple had complained that he was making their grandchild nervous.
We got a long way to go.

Back in the day I was a life guard/entry person at the Oasis gardens swimming pools in mount Gravatt.

I got sacked because I let Aboriginal kids in. They were polite, normal kids. It didn't occur to me that they would be not allowed in.

I always hoped the arse-hat manager had something terrible happen to him - he was a disgrace.

And yes, I am not a nice person sometimes.

 

[Saucery]

Ah just listened to Eddie 360, in tears.

 

[martinson]

Listen to Luke Hodges warning about needing mechanisms in place to control Clarkson if you hire him, because if left on a loose reign he will basically go nuts and take control of every area of the footy club. If he is capable of controlling board members, it’s not hard to believe he would be micro managing and over controlling 19 year olds with no support around them, no matter their back ground or race.

Everyone who's been involved with Clarko knows that's true. A 10 year old's footy match was a standout highlight.

It's still a stretch to see him going as far as the detail outlined here and having others complicit. IMO.

 

[nup]

Any reasonable intelligent person would agree with that.

Then you have the other 50% of the population.

Oh well, I won't be dissuaded. If anything as I have already highlighted (Im sure Im not alone) that the review methodology was not as robust as the Do Better report. This has led to the type of conjecture today that impugns the character of the victims when this should have been appropriately and thoroughly investigated including the accused before findings were published. In the future any reviews Im sure will include a phase 2 or more broad methodology to further investigate any serious allegations that come to light through the process, otherwise any club would just be leaving themselves open to the same again.

 

[Gadzorks]

Everyone who's been involved with Clarko knows that's true. A 10 year old's footy match was a standout highlight.

It's still a stretch to see him going as far as the detail outlined here and having others complicit. IMO.

But less of a stretch than it is for Fagan. Not saying Fagan wasn't involved/in the know, but we don't have similar stories about Fagans behaviour.

Going to be a long couple of months.

 

[lioninthesand]

Everyone who's been involved with Clarko knows that's true. A 10 year old's footy match was a standout highlight.

It's still a stretch to see him going as far as the detail outlined here and having others complicit. IMO.

Oh 100% - my comment wasn’t saying ‘because of this the report is true’ - just that clearly, during that succsessful era where he would have had a fairly hefty god complex, he probably would have overstepped in various areas consistently.

 

[Gadzorks]

Oh well, I won't be dissuaded. If anything as I have already highlighted (Im sure Im not alone) that the review methodology was not as robust as the Do Better report. This has led to the type of conjecture today that impugns the character of the victims when this should have been appropriately and thoroughly investigated including the accused before findings were published. In the future any reviews Im sure will include a phase 2 or more broad methodology to further investigate any serious allegations that come to light through the process, otherwise any club would just be leaving themselves open to the same again.

It wasn't an investigation.

It was an information gathering process to hear the voices of past and present indigenous players experiences.

There was no scope to 'investigate', because they didn't 'know' there was a problem.

Though the information gathering scope may indicate they suspected? Maybe?

 

[Viceregal]

Your caution is admirable but six people have given striking similar stories in such detail that I'm moved to believe them.

Conversely if I receive one letter that is one thing but if I receive 10 letters saying the same thing it actually reduces the effect as I would perceive it as a campaign rather than individual opinions. The closer the stories either a) there was a robust system for dealing with these issues in place and all of them fell foul of it or b) the people asking the questions had an agenda and helpfully led the interviewees to the 'correct' responses. Could be either but the claim that six people (three couples) agreed is not a compelling data point.

I can't help but coming back to the fact a child is dead, when it didn't need to be.

This is so far past Essendon drug saga or Adelaide camp s**t.

Maybe that's what is driving my vitriol, I'm just shattered by that one fact.

That a child might have been sacrificed on the alter of success.

A decent proportion of the US would hold that there was and never had been a child and that disposing of foetuses so as to achieve success is not only 100% ok but a sacred right of all women (they would be unimpressed about anyone but the mother being involved in the decision however) and would provide the same moral elements to that as to using contraception to start a family later when you are more settled in your career (a thing often done)

One person may believe that an abortion is the killing of a child while another that it is simply the removal of unwanted tissue akin to weeding a garden. To the first person (like to yourself) the tragedy would be in the murder, to another the tragedy would be in the external pressures placed upon the mother to make that choice or a range of other elements.

How can you have an investigation and not speak to the people at the centre or it like Clarkson , fagan and whoever else is there . Seems illogical they these blokes have no been hung out to dry without any form of consultation with them .

Easy - the people doing the investigation are professional aboriginal activists (don't read that as a bad thing btw) and their project for the Club would have been focussed on the target group. Their job was not to absolve the Club or look for mitigating circumstances or run PR coverage for their employer. Now not knowing the group in question we don't know if they are a racism-will-be-found mob or a more legit concern.

Now the agenda of the ABC taking the story in its current form and running with it is a completely different matter but that has already been discussed.

 

[martinson]

Oh well, I won't be dissuaded. If anything as I have already highlighted (Im sure Im not alone) that the review methodology was not as robust as the Do Better report. This has led to the type of conjecture today that impugns the character of the victims when this should have been appropriately and thoroughly investigated including the accused before findings were published. In the future any reviews Im sure will include a phase 2 or more broad methodology to further investigate any serious allegations that come to light through the process, otherwise any club would just be leaving themselves open to the same again.

There's been whispers about this report for some time. I wonder how long they've been sitting on it ?

The ABC files their report in GF week , they do this to every industry they've ever investigated , wait for the right moment to drop a bomb , and all of a sudden the AFL has just received Hawthorn's report.

Sorry to be sceptical but there's already a lot gone on behind the scenes I'm thinking.