Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[irel]

IMO this will not end well, no matter how it proceeds from here on. IMO there will be litigation as reputations and careers have been destroyed.

IMO the lawyers may question the integrity of the internal Hawthorn review, there may be question marks of how it was conducted, the methods used, there may even be wrong people named at specified meetings, or events or recollections or the conduct of those meetings. Only one side of the story has emerged at this stage and IMO once the dust has settled and perhaps other details emerge, ABC and the journalist may not escape scrutiny as well. This to me has a smell that something is not right. If what has been alleged to have happened the court of law will settle it and people will be and should bear the consequences. However until such time I reserve the right to give Fagan the presumption of innocence.

IMO Fagan at some near future should return to his coaching job. He has not been found to be guilty of the allegations. At this stage it is only allegations. Fagan has denied he was involved, or recollect that he was involved or that his recollections may differ from the allegations.

Like I said this may be settled via the legal system.

 

[McIvor]

the idea that private school kids will be good employees with the implied assertion that those who dont are less likely (or will not) be so does not hold true at all. look at the schools jordan de goey, bailey smith and lachie hunter went to. if you want a historical example, ben cousins is a good one to start with

people who arent born into privilege already have more hurdles to overcome than those who are. to slam the door shut on them completetly goes against basically every value i take this country to hold

Thats no different to corporate Australia - when graduates are selected at the Big 4, top tier law firms and other top end of town companies, - backgrounds, schools, who you are related etc is still very much at the forefront particulalry when choices are being made between candidtaes. I think gender / cultural diversity is more front of mind thesedays, but wehere kids are educated plays a massive role which obviously is to the detriement of kids from disadvantaged backgrounds or from public schools and un-connected kids.

Your post tho doesnt relate solely to footy.

 

[MacMum]

Between 2007 and 2015 I don't think we drafted a non-white player - I don't think that was due to our recruiters being actively and deliberately racist, but that's a long period of time. To be fair, I don't know the background of all players who came onto the list in that time period so I can't say for sure.

First non-white player we drafted in that time period was Reuben William onto the rookie list and then Cedric Cox the year after in 2016.

...yet Fagan (you know, that racist bad man according to a lot) has sought and brought in quite a few since he's been with us. Go figure.

I just want to hear what his version of events are. Then if he had little or none to do with it he comes back to us and we get on with trying to win next years flag.

 

[Jeremiah001]

The key word in all this is "allegations'".Unfortunately the verdict is already in and IMHO , both Clarkson and Fagan are toast .They will never be able to coach again and their reputations are trashed.
Its unfair but its the times we live in.The ABC has spent the last year or two trashing people 's reputations often without proof i.e. Neville Wran, George Pell , Christian Porter, Andrew Laming , Allan Tudge etc etc.
They will continue to do so.
Thanks Fages for everything but its over.

Using a rogues gallery as examples probably doesn't help your argument.

 

[Jeremiah001]

So now that we have shot down all the messengers, besmirched the characters of the victims and deified the alleged perpetrators, where to next? Surely the whitewashing isnt complete yet given this is going to run for months.

 

[Squizz89]

Bit of a weird take for people to be so up in arms about how long or otherwise the journo gave Clarko/Fagan etc to respond.

If the allegations are proven true does it really matter how long he gave them to respond?

If they’re proven to be false I dare say both him and his employer have far greater concerns in regards to any possible legal action coming their way.

Either way, how long or otherwise they were given to respond in the grand scheme of things seems pretty minuscule considering what we’re dealing with here.

 

[Required]

‘Shocked’ Clarkson rejects claims in Hawks report but will delay start to North coaching role

‘Shocked’ Clarkson rejects claims in Hawks report, will delay start of North coach job

www.foxsports.com.au

‘Shocked’ Clarkson rejects claims in Hawks report but will delay start to North coaching role'​

Apologies if already posted.
.

 

[Hanley]

This was in the Hawks board. Thought it worth a read.

I don't agree with the last bit - if non indigenous people used the remove solution, it should apply them. And if Fagan was involved, that includes him. He had done the right thing by standing down, now it's just wait and see.

I haven't caught up with the whole thread but wanted to reiterate the importance of the above quote. I worked with lots of First Nations people for years in Indigenous Affairs national policy development (I'm non-Indigenous) and the above is one of the first posts I've seen on this that find the right level.

Also 'racism' isn't a complex enough word to describe the current situation of institutional discrimination in Australia with regards to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Intergenerational trauma and the ongoing impacts of colonisation are rife and deeply triggering for many Indigenous peoples. Australia is (and always will be) Aboriginal land and Indigenous ways of thinking and knowing should be accepted and encouraged wherever possible. This behaviour at the Hawks is at its core paternalistic and nieve as well as horrific and degrading. The implication continues to be that the colonial invaders know what's best for the traditional custodians of this beautiful land. We need much better education on the complexities of the situation - even clever, learned and sensitive people like Gerard Whatley expose this nievity when discussing (for example) why he didn't understand the issue of celebrating Indigenous culture and the death of a colonial monarch at the same event. In short, we all have a lot of work to do, and reconcilation starts with truth-telling. If you look at the history of Australia in its fullness, European invasion and settlement is a blip at the end of a long spectrum. The idea that there is still a vibe of 'get over it, this country has changed' makes me queasy and sad.

 

[Elixuh]

The key word in all this is "allegations'".Unfortunately the verdict is already in and IMHO , both Clarkson and Fagan are toast .They will never be able to coach again and their reputations are trashed.
Its unfair but its the times we live in.The ABC has spent the last year or two trashing people 's reputations often without proof i.e. Neville Wran, George Pell , Christian Porter, Andrew Laming , Allan Tudge etc etc.
They will continue to do so.
Thanks Fages for everything but its over.

Weird post.

 

[Gadzorks]

They could have given Fagan two weeks out two months to reply and the only reply will be token as in I don't recall. He's not going to come out and and give us details to digest and pull apart.

His complete response will only be heard through an official channel during an official process.

 

[Happy_Neale]

I am not sure how there are details in this report that did not come up in Hawthorns review (according to Gil). How is that possible?

 

[carnthemlions]

So now that we have shot down all the messengers, besmirched the characters of the victims and deified the alleged perpetrators, where to next? Surely the whitewashing isnt complete yet given this is going to run for months.

I think it's part people who know exactly what they're doing and just want this to do away, and part people who aren't yet willing to reckon with the serious and distressing nature of all this (note that finding this distressing for those of us who are white is neither here nor there). It's really bad, it's not just "historic", the policies and attitudes that made this place what it is persist today in various forms, some more hidden than others.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Lol, Andrew Laming got off light. He is an absolute piece of excrement

 

[mighty_lions]

GTFO.

If you’re not prepared for such a consequence, don’t stick it in, in the first place.

You do realise abortion is legal, I don’t understand why it’s a taboo subject, it’s legal. If I was to get someone pregnant I would suggest to them an abortion, doesn’t mean they have to do, it’s a legal and viable option and the male is certainly allowed to voice his opinion on it

 

[McIvor]

Bit of a weird take for people to be so up in arms about how long or otherwise the journo gave Clarko/Fagan etc to respond.

If the allegations are proven true does it really matter how long he gave them to respond?

If they’re proven to be false I dare say both him and his employer have far greater concerns in regards to any possible legal action coming their way.

Either way, how long or otherwise they were given to respond in the grand scheme of things seems pretty minuscule considering what we’re dealing with here.

My commenting about the unreasonableness of the reporters timeframe in no way detracts from his story and what happened at Hawthorn, which was a disgrace. No one is saying otherwise - well at least I'm not.

But again the lack of efforts this reporter went to in getting Fagan's side is unreasonable. Why didn't he contact Fagan earlier given he is about to up-end this man's life if he's sitting on this story for weeks? Secondly, if the reporter was serious in getting into contact with Fagan, again, reach out to people in his network, again, with more than 24 hours notice.

Call me cynical, but this reporter has now created further doubt about Fagan's character by running around saying Fagan didn't respond to him which is nothing short but pathetic.

Of course it doesn't matter if the allegations are true but I feel anyone put in any situation where your life is about to be up-ended by such serious allegations (irrespective of what they are or in what context) deserves more notice of 24 or knock me down with a feather, 30 hours, which the reporter is now stating. Its actually quite disingenuous and facetious if you ask me and undermines his credibility.

 

[TaylorMade]

The key word in all this is "allegations'".Unfortunately the verdict is already in and IMHO , both Clarkson and Fagan are toast .They will never be able to coach again and their reputations are trashed.
Its unfair but its the times we live in.The ABC has spent the last year or two trashing people 's reputations often without proof i.e. Neville Wran, George Pell , Christian Porter, Andrew Laming , Allan Tudge etc etc.
They will continue to do so.
Thanks Fages for everything but its over.

It's funny watching all the right wing murdoch fans come out of the woodwork discrediting the abc. It must hurt them deeply that it exists. If they could just get rid of this pesky channel uncle rupert could assert full domination over the airwaves and the liberals / catholic church would never be held accountable again.

 

[carnthemlions]

My commenting about the unreasonableness of the reporters timeframe in no way detracts from his story and what happened at Hawthorn, which was a disgrace. No one is saying otherwise - well at least I'm not.

But again the lack of efforts this reporter went to in getting Fagan's side is unreasonable. Why didn't he contact Fagan earlier given he is about to up-end this man's life if he's sitting on this story for weeks? Secondly, if the reporter was serious in getting into contact with Fagan, again, reach out to people in his network, again, with more than 24 hours notice.

Call me cynical, but this reporter has now created further doubt about Fagan's character by running around saying Fagan didn't respond to him which is nothing short but pathetic.

Of course it doesn't matter if the allegations are true but I feel anyone put in any situation where your life is about to be up-ended by such serious allegations (irrespective of what they are or in what context) deserves more notice of 24 or knock me down with a feather, 30 hours, which the reporter is now stating. Its actually quite disingenuous and facetious if you ask me and undermines his credibility.

People who keep repeating this line should consider that claiming to have been ambushed by questions and not given enough time to respond is a very standard PR move. There is also the possibility that Fagan was aware of the questions, sought advice, and was told not to respond for PR or legal reasons.

 

[M Malice]

We should not without rigorous examination unquestionably believe the version of events/allegations/responses of anybody mentioned in this matter whether they be Indigenous, Chris Fagan, Alistair Clarkson, Luke Hodge, the reporter involved or the ABC.

FWIW I think Chris Fagan stepping down while the investigation is undertaken is the right decision.

 

[InFaganWeTrust]

What is David Noble up to these days? I can't think of anyone better to lead the players right now.

 

[BRAB]

It's funny watching all the right wing murdoch fans come out of the woodwork discrediting the abc. It must hurt them deeply that it exists. If they could just get rid of this pesky channel uncle rupert could assert full domination over the airwaves and the liberals / catholic church would never be held accountable again.

It is pretty jarring watching posters who have consistently good takes on the football trot out arguments directly lifted from The Bolt Report.

 

[ZoBlitz]

I've deleted some of the poorer posts over the last 12 hours or so and I don't have much tolerance for some of the gutter posting that's going on around here. I understand people are keen to defend Fagan but some of the unnecessary smearing that's going on needs to be reined in.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Yep 24 hours is reasonable for something that has serious legal implications.

A reasonable person wouldn’t consider that an opportunity to properly defend themselves

For the news media, yes it is. And all you have to do is confirm or deny.

I' just asking why the obscure ABC, why that timing, and who befits.

Obscure? Really?

 

[Dom PC]

For the news media, yes it is. And all you have to do is confirm or deny.

'Deeply distressed' Fagan denies Hawks racism allegations

Brisbane coach Chris Fagan categorically denies the allegations of mistreatment of Hawthorn's Indigenous players during his time at the club

www.afl.com.au

 

[Brett C]

I've deleted some of the poorer posts over the last 12 hours or so and I don't have much tolerance for some of the gutter posting that's going on around here. I understand people are keen to defend Fagan but some of the unnecessary smearing that's going on needs to be reined in.

So of course the posts that affirm the guilt of Clarkson and Fagan will be removed as well? After all smearing the alleged offenders is just as bad as smearing the alleged victims am I right?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Is it though? In the last 20 years for work I will have been in conservatively 1000 team meetings, had 5000 client meetings and probably 50,000 phone calls.

Would I be expected to remember each and every interaction?

I would expect you to remember being at a meeting if it involved asking a player to have his partner's pregnancy terminated. Do you consider that an unreasonable thing to have a memory of?

We can take a counter view which is that these statementscontain a portion of truth and a portion of bullshit.

You have no way to determine if they contain bullshit. You simply don't like that the allegation concerns one of your own and so you are suspicious.

We don’t need to believe what the “victims” in this case claim until there has been an actual impartial investigation neither of which Hawthorne or ABC have done here.

We always need to treat alleged victims with the sympathy and care and kindness we would give to confirmed victims, because the alternative is leaving them out in the cold, feeling alone and not cared for.