Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[lioninthesand]

You would think young Indigenous players at Hawthorn would have confided in a guy like Shaun Burgoyne? If he knows nothing of it that makes me confused.

I think this is a pretty big misconception, that because they are indigenous they all talk or because Shaun is indigenous, they would have felt comfortable to approach him.

If they were completely disenfranchised and had been manipulated and controlled within that system to the point alleged, there’s no reason to think they would have had the confidence to approach Shaun, who would have been incredibly close with the accused for example.

Same as saying ‘but Brad Hill likes him, how it possible he would treat other indigenous players so poorly?’

Truth is and this was established before this report, there were no support structures set up for indigenous players in that program at that time, no 2 indigenous players would be treated the same and it shouldn’t be assumed they have a support network between them because they share the same back ground.

That is why Anthony Corries role at our club is so vitally important, had they had an Anthony Corrie (Brisbane) or an Eddie Betts (Geelong) like we do today, we arn’t having this conversation.

 

[PeaTea]

Biased media reporting. People being declared guilty and having to prove innocence. Welcome to the life of an Essendon supporter circa 2013-2016.

 

[lioninthesand]

Hardly see how it's fair they can remain anonymous and not partake in an investigation but still expect their version of the truth be accepted.

Yeah, you’d imagine their identities are released, so that’s what I mean - they will have a big decision to make.

 

[Tom14]

Can people stop complaining about the process of the article yet? Or are we believing half-cocked reports from Jon Ralph or Eddie?

 

[Bucking Beads]

I think this is a pretty big misconception, that because they are indigenous they all talk or because Shaun is indigenous, they would have felt comfortable to approach him.

If they were completely disenfranchised and had been manipulated and controlled within that system to the point alleged, there’s no reason to think they would have had the confidence to approach Shaun, who would have been incredibly close with the accused for example.

Same as saying ‘but Brad Hill likes him, how it possible he would treat other indigenous players so poorly?’

Truth is and this was established before this report, there were no support structures set up for indigenous players in that program at that time, no 2 indigenous players would be treated the same and it shouldn’t be assumed they have a support network between them because they share the same back ground.

That is why Anthony Corries role at our club is so vitally important, had they had an Anthony Corrie (Brisbane) or an Eddie Betts (Geelong) like we do today, we arn’t having this conversation.

I find it odd but that’s just me. The First Nations lads always seem very close to one another and you’d think the mature players would be there to support the younger First Nations players given they know what they’re going through.

 

[Required]

One worrying potential fallout from this, may be clubs reluctance to draft indigenous kids whom once they would have taken a chance on? An unfortunate consequence of clubs becoming 'risk averse' if more clubs do reviews, find problems which cause upheavals?

The indigenous kids early in the draft should be unaffected, its the 50/50 ones that clubs may decide to pass over due to an unspoken, 'risk management'? I certainly hope not.
.

 

[Nathan Barley]

One worrying potential fallout from this, may be clubs reluctance to draft indigenous kids whom once they would have taken a chance on? An unfortunate consequence of clubs becoming 'risk averse' if more clubs do reviews, find problems which cause upheavals?

The indigenous kids early in the draft should be unaffected, its the 50/50 ones that clubs may decide to pass over due to an unspoken, 'risk management'? I certainly hope not.
.

Like our club? The only ones we've drafted recently have come through the academy

 

[Required]

Like our club? The only ones we've drafted recently have come through the academy

No, as an industry.

 

[Gadzorks]

I find it odd but that’s just me. The First Nations lads always seem very close to one another and you’d think the mature players would be there to support the younger First Nations players given they know what they’re going through.

The difference in indigenous people is the same as the difference between polish and Spanish people - diverse cultures and the bonds that count are family.

We need to stop using skin colour as the way we group people - sharing the same skin colour doesn't instantly make you friends who confide your deepest feelings.

 

[Bucking Beads]

One worrying potential fallout from this, may be clubs reluctance to draft indigenous kids whom once they would have taken a chance on? An unfortunate consequence of clubs becoming 'risk averse' if more clubs do reviews, find problems which cause upheavals?

The indigenous kids early in the draft should be unaffected, its the 50/50 ones that clubs may decide to pass over due to an unspoken, 'risk management'? I certainly hope not.
.

Gee I hope that’s not the case. We need to get educated on our First Nations people and treat them accordingly. We can’t undo the past but we can learn from it and create a better future.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Like our club? The only ones we've drafted recently have come through the academy

God you like to stir shit, when was there a 50/50 choice between 2 players one indigenous and one not and we have gone the non indigenous player? Yet we chased Charlie and Ah Chee.

 

[Tom14]

Like our club? The only ones we've drafted recently have come through the academy

Adam simpson was claiming that due to soft cap cuts clubs would only draft private school kids and kids from 'stable families' last year:

Simpson backtracks on 'private school' comments

"I got it wrong, I need to own it"

www.sen.com.au

 

[Bucking Beads]

Adam simpson was claiming that due to soft cap cuts clubs would only draft private school kids and kids from 'stable families' last year:

Simpson backtracks on 'private school' comments

"I got it wrong, I need to own it"

www.sen.com.au

I don’t think he’s actually wrong do you? Footy is a business. Clubs will be looking to draft players that are going to be good employees and the best chance at being AFL footballers.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Like our club? The only ones we've drafted recently have come through the academy

Bid on Jarrod Cameron didn’t we?

 

[Viceregal]

One worrying potential fallout from this, may be clubs reluctance to draft indigenous kids whom once they would have taken a chance on? An unfortunate consequence of clubs becoming 'risk averse' if more clubs do reviews, find problems which cause upheavals?

The indigenous kids early in the draft should be unaffected, its the 50/50 ones that clubs may decide to pass over due to an unspoken, 'risk management'? I certainly hope not.
.

Gee I hope that’s not the case. We need to get educated on our First Nations people and treat them accordingly. We can’t undo the past but we can learn from it and create a better future.

As written totally correct - however the 'better future' referenced might not included playing full time professional football in a national competition.

As Required intimated if you know that a kid had strong family ties, comes from a culture that involves continued embedding in each others lives, comes from a culture where you mate/marry young and family is expected right off, where work life balance is a key factor with the emphasis on the life side of the ledger, where random leave of absence is expected and where precision of timeliness is not a big deal then all that extra knowing and understanding of what motivates and drives said kid could indeed reduce their chances of being drafted.

Loving the game does not mean that you are prepared to transform yourself into a footballing machine - and there are kids from every walk of life who have talent but not the focused drive to make it in the AFL as we have seen in our own club over the years.

 

[lioninthesand]

I find it odd but that’s just me. The First Nations lads always seem very close to one another and you’d think the mature players would be there to support the younger First Nations players given they know what they’re going through.

100% - I get the notion and I share some of the surprise about the senior guys having no clue.

Just gotter be careful that initial sentiment doesen’t turn to ‘Shaun should have known or be there to support them’ as it plays out.

You could see yesterday there was already an air of responsibility that lies with him as he spoke, which is unfair on so many levels.

 

[notliondown]

Oh 100% - my comment wasn’t saying ‘because of this the report is true’ - just that clearly, during that succsessful era where he would have had a fairly hefty god complex, he probably would have overstepped in various areas consistently.

I remember listening to various media discussions during that era about how Clarkson had redefined AFL football and that he was the best coach the game had ever seen. The fawning and flagellation was vomit inducing. And it went on for years.

No wonder he had/has God complex - there was literally an industry at his feet licking his boots.

There's something horribly hypocritical now that those same people are perched on high ground calling for heads.

The industry needs a shake up. It's clear the checks and balances that should work with the amount of scrutiny the game gets are superficial nonsense. Instead of arse licking it would nice to have a media engaged deeply enough that a player could feel safe and trusted enough to expose this garbage at the time not a decade later.

 

[rye]

I don’t think he’s actually wrong do you? Footy is a business. Clubs will be looking to draft players that are going to be good employees and the best chance at being AFL footballers.

it is absolutely the wrong take

in a time when social mobility has basically died in australia, what kind of message does something like this send to kids who come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds? you will never be good enough for us?

the idea that private school kids will be good employees with the implied assertion that those who dont are less likely (or will not) be so does not hold true at all. look at the schools jordan de goey, bailey smith and lachie hunter went to. if you want a historical example, ben cousins is a good one to start with

people who arent born into privilege already have more hurdles to overcome than those who are. to slam the door shut on them completetly goes against basically every value i take this country to hold

 

[Required]

As written totally correct - however the 'better future' referenced might not included playing full time professional football in a national competition.

As Required intimated if you know that a kid had strong family ties, comes from a culture that involves continued embedding in each others lives, comes from a culture where you mate/marry young and family is expected right off, where work life balance is a key factor with the emphasis on the life side of the ledger, where random leave of absence is expected and where precision of timeliness is not a big deal then all that extra knowing and understanding of what motivates and drives said kid could indeed reduce their chances of being drafted.

Loving the game does not mean that you are prepared to transform yourself into a footballing machine - and there are kids from every walk of life who have talent but not the focused drive to make it in the AFL as we have seen in our own club over the years.

Thats an excellent short synopsis of how a part of Indigenous culture affects their footy life. If more people knew and accepted this, it would go a long way to understanding and accepting differences.
.

 

[RoyBoy17]

Pretty strong statement from Clarkson.

If an investigation shows no guilt or things have been twisted then it’s still not enough to exonerate them. Their names have been tarnished. The only way they can move on from this in a football sense is to make it known (after an investigation) that they are considering compensation for damages. It has to be that strong in response.

If I knew I was not guilty of the serious allegations and it has been twisted to suit a certain narrative then I would have no hesitation in doing so. It would have to be done.

 

[Sherrinator]

Dear god. Tongue in cheek or not, I will still use that saying as nothing remotely racist meant by it. I hope no-one tries to make it so.

Don’t even acknowledge these idiots

 

[davemc_lions]

AFL normally buried these things before.
no one will know the real facts although the mud would already stuck you think this time.

be interesting what the AFL does now.

 

[_Gin]

Can people stop complaining about the process of the article yet? Or are we believing half-cocked reports from Jon Ralph or Eddie?

Journalists are the only ones who think 24 hours to respond is reasonable. 24 hours depending on when it is raised is barely enough time to engage a lawyer.

I always take it with a pinch of salt as to what it means when a party has been "requested to comment" or "did not respond".

You can't use it to infer anything about the person responding or the rest of the article.

 

[mpal6]

Like our club? The only ones we've drafted recently have come through the academy

thanks, yep we're a racist club. Are you going to microwave your membership soon?

Let me shit stir back and let's see who gets to the bottom of the barrel fast.

 

[Section 5]

The journo claims he sent it directly to Fagans email and followed up with a phone call, both were ignored - which is well within Fagans rights.

Can we just accept that Fagan would not have responded to the journo and the questions either way and move on?

It would not have been in his best interests to speak at that early stage, any denials or rebuttals would have been incredibly risky at that point.

If he is found completely innocent, he and his lawyers will have the right to explore defamation angles once the findings are released - the ABC will have assessed that risk and will have lawyers at the ready.

Just a slight difference (bolded) from what i read by the ABC journalist. But a big difference in how things may have unfolded
Jackson said the email went to the Lions general email address

A Lions staff member would have read the email and realised this is a very serious matter and needs urgent attention. One would hope so anyhow

Because the email asked specific questions on the allagations that email would have gone to the highest management. A guess but about 95+% chance
My guess is they would have had a huge meeting with or without Fagan initially. Legal would have been involved.
The email may or may not have been forwarded on to Fagans personal email account initially
I imagine at some stage Fagan advised the Club he has also received a message on his phone from Jackson

What transpired with Fagan and the club is unknown at present

Jackson waited 24-30 hours without hearing from Fagan so article was released

The end result was Fagan did not call the journalist back or reply to the email
Fagan took a leave of absence
The club released a statement to media and all members
........

This morning Gil advised the enquire should take 6-8 weeks
Both coaches will be away from clubs at this time
....

What the hell is going to happen
There are no winners here just messed up lives for all concerned