Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Stars align]

I stayed away for a day. This post bought me back.

Love the idea and this is my 2c to add to yours.

Use the mega dollar media deal to create the additional two list spots per team and make the spots valid for two years not one. Can call it a rookie C category or whatever.

Means from year two of the program there are four kids in these positions. While they won't all be best mates it's a group that hopefully can work together.

Apply the standard rookie rules re moving onto the main list.

Each club now has a indigenous liaison person so their welfare will be monitored and supported.

Even if these players don't make it into the main list they have learnt how it works and that knowledge goes back to their families and communities.

So the communities of both the clubs and the players are learning about each other.

That's gotta be a good thing right?

Watched the two Vic u18 teams go at it on Thursday
Outside of Davey does anyone know how many of the 44 players identify as indigenous

 

[Gadzorks]

Yeah, it's a mess alright

I am happy to hold my torch at this time for Fages.

I do so based on the accumulated evidence of his tenure here.

It's upsetting that an as yet unproven accusation from some years ago unsettles that body of evidence.

But, until I am convinced has was complicit, I am prepared to sit with what I feel is reasonably compelling evidence to the contrary.

It is almost purely a character assessment and I recognise that deficiency.

But the counter assessments, based largely on speculation at this point, aren't terribly critical or scientific as far as I can determine.

If I'm wrong, so be it. I've been wrong before about things and I'm confident my ego won't be too heavily bruised.

It's nice to believe in Fagan, but for me the reality is i don't know him. Seems like a great bloke, but the other people involved may also seem like great blokes.

Even great blokes can get things wrong - both sides.

Like I've said before, the review won't end up labelling any of the parties as being in the right/wrong. It is all shades of grey.

The best outcome will be ensuring the alleged behaviour can not occur again without the AFL excluding one group of talent.

 

[Gadzorks]

Watched the two Vic u18 teams go at it on Thursday
Outside of Davey does anyone know how many of the 44 players identify as indigenous

I've got no idea.

The stuff I mentioned wasn't even about only AFL bound talent. Would have to be very high standard, but might be next level down and not likely to make AFL level, but have real leadership potential in their community.

That's why I suggested adding positions instead of a quota in the current squad size.

 

[Saucery]

It's nice to believe in Fagan, but for me the reality is i don't know him. Seems like a great bloke, but the other people involved may also seem like great blokes.

Even great blokes can get things wrong - both sides.

Like I've said before, the review won't end up labelling any of the parties as being in the right/wrong. It is all shades of grey.

The best outcome will be ensuring the alleged behaviour can not occur again without the AFL excluding one group of talent.

I too am eternally grateful for everything Swan, Noble and Fagan have done to restructure this club and make it the force it is today.

But all of that good work, all of those years of rebuilding could be lost if, as I suspect, Gil will throw anyone under the bus to safe guard his reputation and get the federal government's nose out of AFL business.

If Fagan is indeed blameless then it's going to be another case of bad things happen to good people.

But the club is greater than any individual and if we need to move on from our current coach to cauterise this scandal, then so be it.

This will end up being bigger than the Essendon mess, drag on as long and will be far more wide spread.

Perhaps Noble could be convinced to return and coach for the mean time, or the club moves on and finds someone new; for the players sake if nothing else.

The club must move forward without all the drama and anguish to come.

 

[Gadzorks]

I too am eternally grateful for everything Swan, Noble and Fagan have done to restructure this club and make it the force it is today.

But all of that good work, all of those years of rebuilding could be lost if, as I suspect, Gil will throw anyone under the bus to safe guard his reputation and get the federal government's nose out of AFL business.

If Fagan is indeed blameless then it's going to be another case of bad things happen to good people.

But the club is greater than any individual and if we need to move on from our current coach to cauterise this scandal, then so be it.

This will end up being bigger than the Essendon mess and will be far more wide spread.

Perhaps Noble could be convinced to return and coach for the mean time, or the club moves on and finds someone new, for the players sake if nothing else.

The club must move forward without all the drama and anguish to come.

It's all sad.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Does it matter that they were First Nation's people? Is this somehow relevant, beyond fanning moral outrage?

Given all the players involved were First Nations people, yes it is. There's a pattern there. I can't say with the information we have yet whether that pattern was deliberate or not, but the pattern exists.

If this occurred to any person, in any workplace, wouldn't we be equally abhorred?

The pregnancy part, sure. But the cutting off family part has extra meaning in the case of many First Nations people, who as I understand it, have a different relationship to family in their culture, compared to the majority of Australian society. Cutting off family is an even harder thing to do for many of them. I'm happy to be corrected if I have that part wrong.

It's also worth remembering that the history of First Nations people in the past 250 years has often involved white Australians trying to control their lives. Once again, there's a pattern here. And again, I can't say whether the motivations here had anything to do with race or not, but the pattern exists.

 

[wantok]

Yeah, it's a mess alright

I am happy to hold my torch at this time for Fages.

I do so based on the accumulated evidence of his tenure here.

It's upsetting that an as yet unproven accusation from some years ago unsettles that body of evidence.

But, until I am convinced has was complicit, I am prepared to sit with what I feel is reasonably compelling evidence to the contrary.

It is almost purely a character assessment and I recognise that deficiency.

But the counter assessments, based largely on speculation at this point, aren't terribly critical or scientific as far as I can determine.

If I'm wrong, so be it. I've been wrong before about things and I'm confident my ego won't be too heavily bruised.

It seems to me that there are only two outcomes here and that this will be settled in the Courts. If the claims are true they will need to be proven by evidence and cross examination. All accused lose their jobs.Claimants sue for Costs and Compensation. If proven to be deliberately false or malicious or even just false memories the Claimants will face substantial costs and they and the ABC will need to prove the Truth of the accusations or be liable for defamation claims in the multi millions. This won't be settled outside of the legal system unless the claims are withdrawn or the accused fall on their swords. Everyone including those proven to be guilty must be afforded their legal right of defence.

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[McIvor]

Out of curisioty are these investigations solely related to Hawthorns indigenous players or does it extend to non-indegenous ones to?

The reason I ask, but didnt Hawthorn have issues with Travis Tuck

Travis Tuck

Age

37

Ht

188cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.6

5star

K

7.6

3star

HB

11.0

5star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.3

4star

No current season stats available

D

15.2

4star

K

8.2

4star

HB

7.0

5star

M

5.6

5star

T

2.8

5star

(Link) and John Hay (Link) - not indiegnous as far as I know - and his conduct and drug issues around the same time as all of this. Is Hathowrns handling of this and Tuck's own repeated failed drug tests anything to do with this.

Is that a pattern? IDK, but Hawthorn is the common demoninator. It makes me wonder given all of these issues, that the likes of Sam Mitchell, Luke Hoge, Jordon Lewis and Burgoye, Roughhead are all saying they had no knowledge which may be the case, but geez, alot was going on at that club that no one is taking ownership of and its little wonder they arent either which makes me more suspicious of a lot of the so-called leaders at the club from Kennet down to Clarkson, assistance (which could include a plethora of other senior afl coaches and assistant coahes at other clubs yet to be engulfed by this) to the senior players such as Mitchell, Lewis and Hodge.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

If Fagan says he is innocent and the club has no evidence or reason to not believe him, he should be reinstated as coach while the investigation continues.

Do you really want a media storm of this magnitude following us around indefinitely during next season? Not only does it open us up to severe reputational risk, players rarely play to the best of their ability when there are ongoing sagas aroudn the club distracting them.

What if you sack him and he is cleared? How many millions will the club be paying in legal costs from an unfair dismissal and reputational damage to Fagan?

The club won't sack him. His leave will just be extended and the club may encourage him to resign behind closed doors. But I think Fagan is honourable enough to know that if he isn't being fully cleared of any involvement very soon, he needs to resign for the good of the club and its ability to compete next season.

People saying "we should plan for a replacement coach", I've got to question what that really means? Obviously head office of the club will have contingency plans in place for all eventualities. But are you suggesting, for example, we hire Ross Lyon as an assistant coach while Fagan coaches the team until there is an outcome from the investigation? Is that realistic... I think not.

It means an interim coach, and preparing an eventual replacement for when Fagan steps down for good, because we can't afford to let this hang over us like a black cloud into next season.

 

[Tom14]

Out of curisioty are these investigations solely related to Hawthorns indigenous players or does it extend to non-indegenous ones to?

The reason I ask, but didnt Hawthorn have issues with Travis Tuck (Link) and John Hay (Link) - not indiegnous as far as I know - and his conduct and drug issues around the same time as all of this. Is Hathowrns handling of this and Tuck's own repeated failed drug tests anything to do with this.

Is that a pattern? IDK, but Hawthorn is the common demoninator. It makes me wonder given all of these issues, that the likes of Sam Mitchell, Luke Hoge, Jordon Lewis and Burgoye, Roughhead are all saying they had no knowledge which may be the case, but geez, alot was going on at that club that no one is taking ownership of and its little wonder they arent either which makes me more suspicious of a lot of the so-called leaders at the club from Kennet down to Clarkson, assistance (which could include a plethora of other senior afl coaches and assistant coahes at other clubs yet to be engulfed by this) to the senior players such as Mitchell, Lewis and Hodge.

The external review was solely limited to the treatment of indigenous players at Hawthorn - prompted by the interview the Riolis gave Caroline Wilson earlier this year.

 

[Lions time]

Do you really want a media storm of this magnitude following us around indefinitely during next season? Not only does it open us up to severe reputational risk, players rarely play to the best of their ability when there are ongoing sagas aroudn the club distracting them.


The club won't sack him. His leave will just be extended and the club may encourage him to resign behind closed doors. But I think Fagan is honourable enough to know that if he isn't being fully cleared of any involvement very soon, he needs to resign for the good of the club and its ability to compete next season.


It means an interim coach, and preparing an eventual replacement for when Fagan steps down for good, because we can't afford to let this hang over us like a black cloud into next season.

If allegations are proven false , I fully expect Chris to coach us next year.


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[Saucery]

If allegations are proven false , I fully expect Chris to coach us next year.


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Proven where?

 

[Clarkythelion]

Hey Clarkythelion, I see your avatar is a photo of Simon, do you know him or play yourself?

Did I miss something. My avatar is me.

 

[McIvor]

The external review was solely limited to the treatment of indigenous players at Hawthorn - prompted by the interview the Riolis gave Caroline Wilson earlier this year.

Cheers.

Doesnt take much of a search to see what a rotten culture Hawthorn had around 08 to recent years. Im sure all clubs have there skeletons but Hawks are up there with the Eagles handling of its drug issues in the late 00's and Essendon's Dank & Hird drug experimentation in the mid 2010's.

Its why it upsets me so much that we & North are caught up in it and will be affected more than Hawthorne.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

If allegations are proven false , I fully expect Chris to coach us next year.


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Not only is it hard to prove something false, what makes you think everything is going to be done and dusted by pre-season next year? We also have a trade period and a draft to deal with before then.

 

[Clarkythelion]

Proven where?

There is a lot of money at stake here with careers and income that will end if they are indeed guilty, but if innocent as claimed, no doubt there will be a defamation claim against the ABC to start with from Clarkson and Fagan plus a few others, who will live with the stain forever. That is probably the first course of action to clear their names where the evidence from both sides would be tested. Rebel Wilson, Jeffery Rush, Craig McGlaughlan have all followed this course with media stories in recent years. Ben Roberts Smith is currently in one.

 

[Saucery]

Cheers.

Doesnt take much of a search to see what a rotten culture Hawthorn had around 08 to recent years. Im sure all clubs have there skeletons but Hawks are up there with the Eagles handling of its drug issues in the late 00's and Essendon's Dank & Hird drug experimentation in the mid 2010's.

Its why it upsets me so much that we & North are caught up in it and will be affected more than Hawthorne.

It's interesting that Hird specifically mentioned Hawthorn and the belief that they were somehow cheating to do what they did before the whole supplements thing. Dank fed his paranoia on this. Turns out it wasn't cutting edge supplements but behavioural conditioning bordering on the inhuman.

 

[Saucery]

There is a lot of money at stake here with careers and income that will end if they are indeed guilty, but if innocent as claimed, no doubt there will be a defamation claim against the ABC to start with from Clarkson and Fagan plus a few others, who will live with the stain forever. That is probably the first course of action to clear their names where the evidence from both sides would be tested. Rebel Wilson, Jeffery Rush, Craig McGlaughlan have all followed this course with media stories in recent years. Ben Roberts Smith is currently in one.

True but Fagan and the other guy are small potatoes compared to Gil. He will have people leaking, briefing against them as we speak so he has some one to sacrifice on the alter of his ambition. Gil will appease the Feds with a couple of heads on pikes, no need to guess who they might be.

 

[McIvor]

True but Fagan and the other guy are small potatoes compared to Gil. He will have people leaking, briefing against them as we speak so he has some one to sacrifice on the alter of his ambition. Gil will appease the Feds with a couple of heads on pikes, no need to guess who they might be.

No idea who Jason Burt is quick search says he has a decent job at one of the elite Melbourne private schools and has also taken a leave of absence, but I reckon he will most certainly be one of those thrown well and truly under the bus - maybe rightly i dont know - but I bet my bottom dollar he will be the major fall guy.

 

[Saucery]

No idea who Jason Burt is quick search says he has a decent job at one of the elite Melbourne private schools and has also taken a leave of absence, but I reckon he will most certainly be one of those thrown well and truly under the bus - maybe rightly i dont know - but I bet my bottom dollar he will be the major fall guy.

Too small an offering for the baying crowd, most likely an entre; but well observed.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

I really don't get it. I haven't seen people say he's guilty or even a bad person just that the events described are horrible and if true the perpetrators deserve serious punishment

At the same time we also have those questioning the motives of the journalist and victims which would be equally as wrong as calling Fagan a bad person

I really don't get it. I haven't seen people say he's guilty or even a bad person just that the events described are horrible and if true the perpetrators deserve serious punishment

At the same time we also have those questioning the motives of the journalist and victims which would be equally as wrong as calling Fagan a bad person

No worries mate.
Look that's the way I read some posts . I'll also say this it wouldn't be the first time i have missed the tone of a post .
And I'm not re reading this thread.
To be honest we have all seen journos add a bit of juice or sensationalise a story where the actual events may have been partially correct but not totaly. In the initial stages that's where I thought it might end , partially correct , and with total denial from Clarko and Fages regarding doing wrongdoing or discrimitive might back my feelings up.
The fact that people have come on here posting comments about the abc , well to me are just trying to get their heads around possible scenarios of what could of transpired without the bullshit.

 

[Dom PC]

Do you really want a media storm of this magnitude following us around indefinitely during next season? Not only does it open us up to severe reputational risk, players rarely play to the best of their ability when there are ongoing sagas aroudn the club distracting them.


The club won't sack him. His leave will just be extended and the club may encourage him to resign behind closed doors. But I think Fagan is honourable enough to know that if he isn't being fully cleared of any involvement very soon, he needs to resign for the good of the club and its ability to compete next season.


It means an interim coach, and preparing an eventual replacement for when Fagan steps down for good, because we can't afford to let this hang over us like a black cloud into next season.

I'm sorry but I have a real issue with the lack of loyalty and empathy you (and some others around here) are showing a man that has given his heart and soul to this club. To effectively kick him to the way side because times got a little tough just screams weak leadership to me.

If he gets proven to have done something wrong, he gets sacked. If he gets proven to have done nothing wrong, he should be free to continue as our coach. Until either of those scenarios have occurred, he should still be our coach if he chooses to.

Our club must be loyal to its people until it can't be (i.e. evidence is provided). To suggest our club encourage Fagan to resign is pathetic. The media storm is at its peak now, it won't stay this hot for months on end and it won't get this hot again until the results of the investigation are released... at which point Fagan will either be exonerated or sacked.

We can't afford to let this hang over our season? Seriously.... is Dunkley not coming? Is Ashcroft not coming? Is Charlie Cameron, Hugh McCluggage etc. requesting to be traded? Talk about jumping at shadows....as I said, this just screams weak leadership to me. Fagan should be dealt with based on facts, not what ifs.

Head office of the club would have contingency plans in place, that is just obvious. But that doesn't mean we need to hire an interim coach in the mean time... it's just not realistic and shows a real lack of respect to Fagan and his claim to innocence...

 

[Clarkythelion]

True but Fagan and the other guy are small potatoes compared to Gil. He will have people leaking, briefing against them as we speak so he has some one to sacrifice on the alter of his ambition. Gil will appease the Feds with a couple of heads on pikes, no need to guess who they might be.

I don't think the general public will give a rats about what the AFL says or their investigation - unfortunately. The burden of proof is on the accusers - in the case the ABC and their un-named sources. Right now everyone is innocent, people should remember that. There are no dates, times, text messages, SIM cards, email it's just all about what someone said from one side of the story. This will take months to fall out, many months probably but the push will now come from the co-accused to push for some evidence to fight against. If there is no evidence of the accusers back out then Clarkson and the accused will have to pursue it, i just cant see any other way for them to clear their names in the court of public opinion.

 

[Saucery]

I'm sorry but I have a real issue with the lack of loyalty and empathy you (and some others around here) are showing a man that has given his heart and soul to this club. To effectively kick him to the way side because times got a little tough just screams weak leadership to me.

If he gets proven to have done something wrong, he gets sacked. If he gets proven to have done nothing wrong, he should be free to continue as our coach. Until either of those scenarios have occurred, he should still be our coach if he chooses to.

Our club must be loyal to its people until it can't be (i.e. evidence is provided). To suggest our club encourage Fagan to resign is pathetic. The media storm is at its peak now, it won't stay this hot for months on end and it won't get this hot again until the results of the investigation are released... at which point Fagan will either be exonerated or sacked.

We can't afford to let this hang over our season? Seriously.... is Dunkley not coming? Is Ashcroft not coming? Is Charlie Cameron, Hugh McCluggage etc. requesting to be traded? Talk about jumping at shadows....as I said, this just screams weak leadership to me. Fagan should be dealt with based on facts, not what ifs.

Head office of the club would have contingency plans in place, that is just obvious. But that doesn't mean we need to hire an interim coach in the mean time... it's just not realistic and shows a real lack of respect to Fagan and his claim to innocence...

I understand your position on loyalty though it seems to have left most professional sports by now. It doesn't matter if it is or isn't proven beyond doubt (which is very unlikely). By the time such positions are taken we will be half way through next season. The talk about a player exodus is irrelevant, it didn't happen at Essendon yet look how they have faired? The fact Fagan has stood down speaks volumes in itself.

 

[Clarkythelion]

I'm sorry but I have a real issue with the lack of loyalty and empathy you (and some others around here) are showing a man that has given his heart and soul to this club. To effectively kick him to the way side because times got a little tough just screams weak leadership to me.

If he gets proven to have done something wrong, he gets sacked. If he gets proven to have done nothing wrong, he should be free to continue as our coach. Until either of those scenarios have occurred, he should still be our coach if he chooses to.

Our club must be loyal to its people until it can't be (i.e. evidence is provided). To suggest our club encourage Fagan to resign is pathetic. The media storm is at its peak now, it won't stay this hot for months on end and it won't get this hot again until the results of the investigation are released... at which point Fagan will either be exonerated or sacked.

We can't afford to let this hang over our season? Seriously.... is Dunkley not coming? Is Ashcroft not coming? Is Charlie Cameron, Hugh McCluggage etc. requesting to be traded? Talk about jumping at shadows....as I said, this just screams weak leadership to me. Fagan should be dealt with based on facts, not what ifs.

Head office of the club would have contingency plans in place, that is just obvious. But that doesn't mean we need to hire an interim coach in the mean time... it's just not realistic and shows a real lack of respect to Fagan and his claim to innocence...

I'm with you, the man is innocent until proven guilty. My partner is a lawyer and she says, as is, it's just someone accusing him with no concrete details yet provided. The club have stood him aside on full pay just like a police person is stood aside on full pay until investigated. If the case falls over, is retracted, is not definitive then he has his job back even with a stain on his name. Do we, any of us really know him? I think even if he can't clear his name he will probably resign anyway rather than damage the club.