Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Happy_Neale]

One thing I am still unsure of is how the investigative report found details not uncovered in the Hawks external review - how in the world does this happen. Either the review was extremely shallow and missed out on key details or there was extras added to the journalist story after the fact.

 

[Viceregal]

Another element that might factor in might be not sure what to call it, cultural fit...

I apply for a job at Acme Inc., a place which has shift work, pay by the hour, production KPIs, strict safety policies and is known for their activist support for maintaining the traditional architecture/feel of the town. I get the job and get through my training and start on the floor. I don't like shift work and insist that I need to work a standard day. I prefer a salary and think that the quality of my work should matter more than the quantity of my work and think that my soulless overseers are hounding me for no good reason to work harder/faster etc - they just don't understand me and don't even seem to want to try. I am slack with my tools and equipment and am a potential danger to myself and my workmates. I also think that the architecture of the town and the general ambience sucks and think that the company should stop supporting it in sensitivity to my feelings. I think most of us would agree that my time at Acme Inc. will be limited and that when I am turfed there are plenty of reasons for them doing so. Everything I did matches the culture and values I brought in with me - in one sense I am being true to myself but myself and Acme are not going to have a happily ever after here.

If I were to adjust the scenario slightly and I am new to the town from way out back and identify as First Nations. Where I come from lunch is when the sun is about there (points up) and no one has a watch and things start when they start and end whenever. I believe in relationships and spend time getting to know my fellow workers better - this is more important than the production. We are working together and KPIs do not encourage communities as they are targeted at individuals rather than the group. I believe that the town was built on land stolen from my people and to celebrate the buildings is to descrate and dance on the graves of my ancestors and my people and is incredibly insensitive to me. In my culture it is expected and admired to take time off unexpectedly and for unknown periods of time to learn more and to Dream. I am just as unhelpful to the company as the first guy and I am being true to myself and my culture but since I am wrapped in the aboriginal flag how much is Acme required to change who and what it is and does in order to satisfy my preferences?

In terms of young men walking into an AFL environment some of them are almost already there (eg Wil Ashcroft), some have a vague idea and some are woefully unprepared for the rigours of a professional AFL existence. Even though we all love the footy if a genie rocked up and gave you the body, skills, age, and co-ordination to be an AFL star how many of us would truly enjoy the lifestyle it would entail? Turning young men into footballers at that level (like turning new recruits into soldiers) involves a certain amount of deconstruction of previous values, a certain commitment to the team and team mates, a subsuming of the self into the ethos of the group etc and not all young men can make the transition due to a range of factors we have all seen over the years. When two cultures clash (ie that of the professional footballer and that of a young man active in his community) then normally it is the newcomer that makes the change or else they either do not apply or leave. I can look to be accommodated (eg I have responsibility x which I can meet if I just do the second shift can I be on that one all the time instead of a rotating roster) and if reasonable that is fine but if it doesn't fit in with the standard requirements (eg I will FIFO for the games but live in another state and will train on my own during the week) then it isn't going to work.

How much of a responsibility does the Club have to ensure that any and all of it's players preferences are catered to? If you say completely then the Club will seek to draft those who most closely match its existing profile and preferences. At what point does adjustment to cultural sensitivity interfere with the core business of the Club (which is professional football not social engineering).

I imagine that when you put your hand up to be drafted and sign the form that there are some rules/regulations/stipulations that you agree, in advance, to adhere to - and if you are not capable, for whatever reason, for meeting those expectations then the responsibility should be on you to either not apply, to do your best but accept that it wasn't good enough when you fail etc but insisting on being held to a different standard because of a non-professional reason seems unfair to the group you are seeking to join.

 

[Saucery]

I don't think the general public will give a rats about what the AFL says or their investigation - unfortunately. The burden of proof is on the accusers - in the case the ABC and their un-named sources. Right now everyone is innocent, people should remember that. There are no dates, times, text messages, SIM cards, email it's just all about what someone said from one side of the story. This will take months to fall out, many months probably but the push will now come from the co-accused to push for some evidence to fight against. If there is no evidence of the accusers back out then Clarkson and the accused will have to pursue it, i just cant see any other way for them to clear their names in the court of public opinion.

Sorry Clarky but it's not just someone, it's at least six people in the AGE investigation and apparently more in the independent Hawthorn one. Now there is going to be a wide ranging investigation by the AFL, monitored by the federal government. To many big names at risk for there not to be escape goats, the Hawthorn three are as good as cooked.

 

[wantok]

It's interesting that Hird specifically mentioned Hawthorn and the belief that they were somehow cheating to do what they did before the whole supplements thing. Dank fed his paranoia on this. Turns out it wasn't cutting edge supplements but behavioural conditioning bordering on the inhuman.

I would suggest you make use of the word allegedly.

Sent from my SM-A525F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Maboo]

Did I miss something. My avatar is me.

Sorry mate, that image looks amazingly like Simon Whitlock the wizard
put a cap on this dude?

 

[Saucery]

I'm with you, the man is innocent until proven guilty. My partner is a lawyer and she says, as is, it's just someone accusing him with no concrete details yet provided. The club have stood him aside on full pay just like a police person is stood aside on full pay until investigated. If the case falls over, is retracted, is not definitive then he has his job back even with a stain on his name. Do we, any of us really know him? I think even if he can't clear his name he will probably resign anyway rather than damage the club.

The standing down of Fagan was a mutual decision.

 

[vic_LION]

One thing I am still unsure of is how the investigative report found details not uncovered in the Hawks external review - how in the world does this happen. Either the review was extremely shallow and missed out on key details or there was extras added to the journalist story after the fact.

I was under the impression the ABC caught wind that there was a review into this in Hawthorn, and went and interviewed some past players on their experience during this time (might be mistaken about this, but the information in the ABC article is not the report, they are different things). I think I read somewhere the individuals in the ABC article weren't the same as the 10(?) featured in the report, but some similarities in the accusations.

Which is why this information is new to some (such as Gil) when it was released, and why there is more to come when the actual report is released.

But I may be mistaken on some of this, if others know feel free to clarify

 

[Gadzorks]

Another element that might factor in might be not sure what to call it, cultural fit...

I apply for a job at Acme Inc., a place which has shift work, pay by the hour, production KPIs, strict safety policies and is known for their activist support for maintaining the traditional architecture/feel of the town. I get the job and get through my training and start on the floor. I don't like shift work and insist that I need to work a standard day. I prefer a salary and think that the quality of my work should matter more than the quantity of my work and think that my soulless overseers are hounding me for no good reason to work harder/faster etc - they just don't understand me and don't even seem to want to try. I am slack with my tools and equipment and am a potential danger to myself and my workmates. I also think that the architecture of the town and the general ambience sucks and think that the company should stop supporting it in sensitivity to my feelings. I think most of us would agree that my time at Acme Inc. will be limited and that when I am turfed there are plenty of reasons for them doing so. Everything I did matches the culture and values I brought in with me - in one sense I am being true to myself but myself and Acme are not going to have a happily ever after here.

If I were to adjust the scenario slightly and I am new to the town from way out back and identify as First Nations. Where I come from lunch is when the sun is about there (points up) and no one has a watch and things start when they start and end whenever. I believe in relationships and spend time getting to know my fellow workers better - this is more important than the production. We are working together and KPIs do not encourage communities as they are targeted at individuals rather than the group. I believe that the town was built on land stolen from my people and to celebrate the buildings is to descrate and dance on the graves of my ancestors and my people and is incredibly insensitive to me. In my culture it is expected and admired to take time off unexpectedly and for unknown periods of time to learn more and to Dream. I am just as unhelpful to the company as the first guy and I am being true to myself and my culture but since I am wrapped in the aboriginal flag how much is Acme required to change who and what it is and does in order to satisfy my preferences?

In terms of young men walking into an AFL environment some of them are almost already there (eg Wil Ashcroft), some have a vague idea and some are woefully unprepared for the rigours of a professional AFL existence. Even though we all love the footy if a genie rocked up and gave you the body, skills, age, and co-ordination to be an AFL star how many of us would truly enjoy the lifestyle it would entail? Turning young men into footballers at that level (like turning new recruits into soldiers) involves a certain amount of deconstruction of previous values, a certain commitment to the team and team mates, a subsuming of the self into the ethos of the group etc and not all young men can make the transition due to a range of factors we have all seen over the years. When two cultures clash (ie that of the professional footballer and that of a young man active in his community) then normally it is the newcomer that makes the change or else they either do not apply or leave. I can look to be accommodated (eg I have responsibility x which I can meet if I just do the second shift can I be on that one all the time instead of a rotating roster) and if reasonable that is fine but if it doesn't fit in with the standard requirements (eg I will FIFO for the games but live in another state and will train on my own during the week) then it isn't going to work.

How much of a responsibility does the Club have to ensure that any and all of it's players preferences are catered to? If you say completely then the Club will seek to draft those who most closely match its existing profile and preferences. At what point does adjustment to cultural sensitivity interfere with the core business of the Club (which is professional football not social engineering).

I imagine that when you put your hand up to be drafted and sign the form that there are some rules/regulations/stipulations that you agree, in advance, to adhere to - and if you are not capable, for whatever reason, for meeting those expectations then the responsibility should be on you to either not apply, to do your best but accept that it wasn't good enough when you fail etc but insisting on being held to a different standard because of a non-professional reason seems unfair to the group you are seeking to join.

Are you a recruitment specialist for Price Waterhouse Coopers by any chance?

 

[Mighty Lions]

agree, at this stage the general public does not need to know the names of the complainants. At least not until the AFL inquiry has tested the validity of the complaints . The investigation would be flawed if the names were released now, as it would no doubt lead to harassment and likely threats via social media and the wellbeing of the complainants must be a consideration, as well as the alleged perpetrators.

No doubt at some point their details will or should be released. I want to believe that Fages would not do, or be a party to the things alleged.

1) Jed Anderson.

 

[knaf]

No idea who Jason Burt is quick search says he has a decent job at one of the elite Melbourne private schools and has also taken a leave of absence, but I reckon he will most certainly be one of those thrown well and truly under the bus - maybe rightly i dont know - but I bet my bottom dollar he will be the major fall guy.

As a welfare officer Burt should have kept case files. Interesting to know what’s in them. Of course he may not have kept any or they may have been destroyed under the Hawks disposal authority guidelines.

 

[Sausages]

Another element that might factor in might be not sure what to call it, cultural fit...

I apply for a job at Acme Inc., a place which has shift work, pay by the hour, production KPIs, strict safety policies and is known for their activist support for maintaining the traditional architecture/feel of the town. I get the job and get through my training and start on the floor. I don't like shift work and insist that I need to work a standard day. I prefer a salary and think that the quality of my work should matter more than the quantity of my work and think that my soulless overseers are hounding me for no good reason to work harder/faster etc - they just don't understand me and don't even seem to want to try. I am slack with my tools and equipment and am a potential danger to myself and my workmates. I also think that the architecture of the town and the general ambience sucks and think that the company should stop supporting it in sensitivity to my feelings. I think most of us would agree that my time at Acme Inc. will be limited and that when I am turfed there are plenty of reasons for them doing so. Everything I did matches the culture and values I brought in with me - in one sense I am being true to myself but myself and Acme are not going to have a happily ever after here.

If I were to adjust the scenario slightly and I am new to the town from way out back and identify as First Nations. Where I come from lunch is when the sun is about there (points up) and no one has a watch and things start when they start and end whenever. I believe in relationships and spend time getting to know my fellow workers better - this is more important than the production. We are working together and KPIs do not encourage communities as they are targeted at individuals rather than the group. I believe that the town was built on land stolen from my people and to celebrate the buildings is to descrate and dance on the graves of my ancestors and my people and is incredibly insensitive to me. In my culture it is expected and admired to take time off unexpectedly and for unknown periods of time to learn more and to Dream. I am just as unhelpful to the company as the first guy and I am being true to myself and my culture but since I am wrapped in the aboriginal flag how much is Acme required to change who and what it is and does in order to satisfy my preferences?

In terms of young men walking into an AFL environment some of them are almost already there (eg Wil Ashcroft), some have a vague idea and some are woefully unprepared for the rigours of a professional AFL existence. Even though we all love the footy if a genie rocked up and gave you the body, skills, age, and co-ordination to be an AFL star how many of us would truly enjoy the lifestyle it would entail? Turning young men into footballers at that level (like turning new recruits into soldiers) involves a certain amount of deconstruction of previous values, a certain commitment to the team and team mates, a subsuming of the self into the ethos of the group etc and not all young men can make the transition due to a range of factors we have all seen over the years. When two cultures clash (ie that of the professional footballer and that of a young man active in his community) then normally it is the newcomer that makes the change or else they either do not apply or leave. I can look to be accommodated (eg I have responsibility x which I can meet if I just do the second shift can I be on that one all the time instead of a rotating roster) and if reasonable that is fine but if it doesn't fit in with the standard requirements (eg I will FIFO for the games but live in another state and will train on my own during the week) then it isn't going to work.

How much of a responsibility does the Club have to ensure that any and all of it's players preferences are catered to? If you say completely then the Club will seek to draft those who most closely match its existing profile and preferences. At what point does adjustment to cultural sensitivity interfere with the core business of the Club (which is professional football not social engineering).

I imagine that when you put your hand up to be drafted and sign the form that there are some rules/regulations/stipulations that you agree, in advance, to adhere to - and if you are not capable, for whatever reason, for meeting those expectations then the responsibility should be on you to either not apply, to do your best but accept that it wasn't good enough when you fail etc but insisting on being held to a different standard because of a non-professional reason seems unfair to the group you are seeking to join.

Mate, there's significant patches of your post I agree with.

What irritates me is that we are speculating in defence, when otherwise I read "there is no prosecution".

We shouldn't HAVE TO resort to doing so.

It should be sufficient to let the presumption of innocence extend until there is reasonable references to the contrary.

To voice otherwise is to have made a decision on thus far unsubstantiated allegations, something I find hard to fathom but I'll deal with it.

Whether or not they are proven from here shows nothing more than you have simply made a correct guess in "how the situation will play out".

I don't find any problem with speculation, but anything more committed than that seems extreme to my mind.

I'm no different towards Fages today than I was this time last week lol.

So I don't feel my position is extreme either btw

 

[Jimmy Two Hands]

I think people need to decouple the report from the ABC investigation in their minds.

The report hasn't been made public, its findings re Fagan and Clarkson are unknown. ABC Sports have done their own investigations and interviews based on the report, and have published their findings. They have uncovered extra information apparently, probably by virtue of spending more time with less parties and having a narrower scope. Clarkson and Fagan complaining they weren't involved in the report is null - they were given right of comment by the ABC with respect to those findings which have been made public and chose not to - you'll note neither complained they weren't given this in their respective statements.

The ABC's investigations mentions a number of coaches present at various times, but only has named 3 specific individuals. Take that as you will.

 

[Saucery]

As a welfare officer Burt should have kept case files. Interesting to know what’s in them. Of course he may not have kept any or they may have been destroyed under the Hawks disposal authority guidelines.

Rollin like Dean Wallis......

 

[Saucery]

Must have missed this, so that's three ex-coaches and the ex-president who have taken leave of absence. Without even the hint of the investigation panel being convened. Anyone who thinks this will blow over soon is very likely to be very disappointed.

AFL statement on Andrew Newbold

AFL Commissioner Andrew Newbold has taken a leave of absence from the AFL Commission

www.afl.com.au

 

[Happy_Neale]

I was under the impression the ABC caught wind that there was a review into this in Hawthorn, and went and interviewed some past players on their experience during this time (might be mistaken about this, but the information in the ABC article is not the report, they are different things). I think I read somewhere the individuals in the ABC article weren't the same as the 10(?) featured in the report, but some similarities in the accusations.

Which is why this information is new to some (such as Gil) when it was released, and why there is more to come when the actual report is released.

But I may be mistaken on some of this, if others know feel free to clarify

This was my understanding as well - which still begs the question of how the original review did not uncover these stories. It’s pretty bizarre when you think about it.

 

[Viceregal]

Mate, there's significant patches of your post I agree with.

What irritates me is that we are speculating in defence, when otherwise I read "there is no prosecution".

We shouldn't HAVE TO resort to doing so.

It should be sufficient to let the presumption of innocence extend until there is reasonable references to the contrary.

To voice otherwise is to have made a decision on thus far unsubstantiated allegations, something I find hard to fathom but I'll deal with it.

Whether or not they are proven from here shows nothing more than you have simply made a correct guess in "how the situation will play out".

I don't find any problem with speculation, but anything more committed than that seems extreme to my mind.

I'm no different towards Fages today than I was this time last week lol.

So I don't feel my position is extreme either btw

I wasn't speaking so much to this situation per se but more to the conception of potentially incompatible mindsets.

They exist and not just in footy - you want to be a legal partner by the time you are age x then you are a dedicated professional and nothing in your life interferes ... you want to be a millionaire from scratch then you are controlling your spending more than those around you by an order of magnitude ... you want a happy marriage you avoid even the appearance of infidelity in body, mind, and heart ... you want to live a life surrounded by loving extended family then you are prioritising those relationships over other things ... you want a close relationship with the divine then you choose to live in accordance with your god's alignment and actively express your spirit in its direction ... you want to be a teacher who changes lives then your students have to mean more to you than just numbers in a classroom ... if you want to have honour as a footy supporter you are a Lion etc etc etc.

That you can have it all is a myth - we all have to make choices and we all have to live with the consequences and rewards of them. There are lanes in life that you are closing off by choosing a career as an AFL Footballer and others that you are opening in the process - there are ex players who are glad they did and ex players who wish they had never pulled on the jumper and everything in between.

 

[Saucery]

I wasn't speaking so much to this situation per se but more to the conception of potentially incompatible mindsets.

They exist and not just in footy - you want to be a legal partner by the time you are age x then you are a dedicated professional and nothing in your life interferes ... you want to be a millionaire from scratch then you are controlling your spending more than those around you by an order of magnitude ... you want a happy marriage you avoid even the appearance of infidelity in body, mind, and heart ... you want to live a life surrounded by loving extended family then you are prioritising those relationships over other things ... you want a close relationship with the divine then you choose to live in accordance with your god's alignment and actively express your spirit in its direction ... you want to be a teacher who changes lives then your students have to mean more to you than just numbers in a classroom ... if you want to have honour as a footy supporter you are a Lion etc etc etc.

That you can have it all is a myth - we all have to make choices and we all have to live with the consequences and rewards of them. There are lanes in life that you are closing off by choosing a career as an AFL Footballer and others that you are opening in the process - there are ex players who are glad they did and ex players who wish they had never pulled on the jumper and everything in between.

That's very Zen.

 

[Saucery]

I wasn't speaking so much to this situation per se but more to the conception of potentially incompatible mindsets.

They exist and not just in footy - you want to be a leg.al partner by the time you are age x then you are a dedicated professional and nothing in your life interferes ... you want to be a millionaire from scratch then you are controlling your spending more than those around you by an order of magnitude ... you want a happy marriage you avoid even the appearance of infidelity in body, mind, and heart ... you want to live a life surrounded by loving extended family then you are prioritising those relationships over other things ... you want a close relationship with the divine then you choose to live in accordance with your god's alignment and actively express your spirit in its direction ... you want to be a teacher who changes lives then your students have to mean more to you than just numbers in a classroom ... if you want to have honour as a footy supporter you are a Lion etc etc etc.

That you can have it all is a myth - we all have to make choices and we all have to live with the consequences and rewards of them. There are lanes in life that you are closing off by choosing a career as an AFL Footballer and others that you are opening in the process - there are ex players who are glad they did and ex players who wish they had never pulled on the jumper and everything in between.

And further more your post raises psychological questions that are definitely relevant to this situation.

Coping with contradictory ideas or experiences is mentally stressful.

It takes energy and effort to sit with those seemingly opposite things that both seem possible.

Some people will inevitably resolve this dissonance by blindly believing whatever they wanted to believe.

Most people are not rational beings, no matter what they might think.

Humans are mostly emotional beings who act based upon their emotions and then rationalise why their position is the correct one, after the fact.

 

[Sausages]

That's very Zen.

INCOMING DERAIL

That response caused me to google the 'And then" scene from Dude, Where's My Car?

ahahaha golden

/DERAIL

 

[McIvor]

I think even if he can't clear his name he will probably resign anyway rather than damage the club.

Just on that though and I know I have said he may step aside, but being in HR, I know that if Fagan was to resign as such he would lose of his entitlements so you can actually see that he won't do that unless he comes to a financial arrangement with the club first. If he was young man, you could see him being put on gardening leave if the club would be happy to reappoint him in one years time or longer, but I dont know if that works in a sporting landscape.

 

[Saucery]

INCOMING DERAIL

That response caused me to google the 'And then" scene from Dude, Where's My Car?

ahahaha golden

/DERAIL

 

[Saucery]

Just on that though and I know I have said he may step aside, but being in HR, I know that if Fagan was to resign as such he would lose of his entitlements so you can actually see that he won't do that unless he comes to a financial arrangement with the club first. If he was young man, you could see him being put on gardening leave if the club would be happy to reappoint him in one years time or longer, but I dont know if that works in a sporting landscape.

I'm sure Gil will see to it that he gets enough to set him up for life to take the bullet.

 

[McIvor]

I'm sure Gil will see to it that he gets enough to set him up for life to take the bullet.

I would also like to think that the AFL would assist the club in paying Fagan and whoever else we appoint, if in fact we do.

Surely we don't get punished by Fagan's salary being included in our soft cap given this mess really has nothing to do with Brisbane.

But given we had a player srewed out of the Bronwlow by a farcical situation straight out of the WWE with scripts and the like, I wouldnt be surprised if the afl does include Fagan and a new coaches salary into the same soft cap.

 

[Saucery]

I would also like to think that the AFL would assist the club in paying Fagan and whoever else we appoint, if in fact we do.

Surely we don't get punished by Fagan's salary being included in our soft cap given this mess really has nothing to do with Brisbane.

But given we had a player srewed out of the Bronwlow by a farcical situation straight out of the WWE with scripts and the like, I wouldnt be surprised if the afl does include Fagan and a new coaches salary into the same soft cap.

I'm sure the AFL will take on some situational debts to get some patsy's.

 

[McIvor]

Leaving aside the 3 people involved and their families, - which I appreciate is devastating - but from a club level, it feels to me like North and Brisbane are the only significant losers in this where there is massive uncertainty for the respective clubs.

Hawthorn is at the centre of this and its all usual business for the coaches and players which feels really unfair - if people / HAwthorn are found guilty, us and North lose coaches (probably moreso for North given where they are coming from) and are on the back foot coming into 23but what about Hawthorn given it seems everyone who was involved in this sordid mess is no longer their? Do they just get off scott free, processes, policies put in place, they learn from it and move on wthout punishment? Are they even open to punishment?

Havent read the Hawks board much and obviously no one has responded to my previous post, but is the expectation that Hawthorn will actually be punished or is it only reserved for the likes of us / North any other clubs whose clubs may get caught up in this?