Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Sherrinator]

Again nobody is calling for anything like that, you’re doing the exact thing you’re accusing others of doing, disregarding context. Everything I have read has been “if found to be true there should be consequences”

The report is out there and would have been very well researched, Fagan will have his chance to provide context but there’s not much else we can do until the investigation has been completed. I just hope it doesn’t take as long as some of the previous investigations.

They could also have said “if not involved, I hope that X is issued an apology”. Too many emotional wrecks on here who love to get the first word in. You people feed this idiotic clickbait world.

 

[M Malice]

 

[CarterS]

Equally, if Fages says he knows nothing - then he'd best well be 100% certain on that statement and be able to provide documented proof to a similar level.

Hard to prove this type of thing

 

[mattsmob]

They could also have said “if not involved, I hope that X is issued an apology”. Too many emotional wrecks on here who love to get the first word in. You people feed this idiotic clickbait world.

I think it’s fair to say that if this is false reporting the ABC should face pretty severe consequences as well. Either way it’s a very serious situation for both sides and to try and brush it under the carpet does every party a disservice imo.

 

[3KZ is Football]

These days it's guilty until proven innocent

Not in a court of law it isn’t.

The issue is that these events are not being tried in a court of law, but rather, the court of public opinion. The problem for Clarkson, Fagan and Burt is that Hawthorn commissioned an independent external review into the treatment of First Nations players and this report appears to contain accounts, provided by players and families, of mistreatment and cultural insensitivity. It appears that at least three players have and a number of people close to them have reported incidents that are quite similar in nature, indicating a possible pattern of behaviour. One thing I haven’t heard are credible media commentators criticising or finding fault with the independent external review undertaken by Hawthorn. If Clarkson, Fagan or Burt believe the report or the ABC article is wrong and has defamed them, they could take legal action for defamation, but truth is a defence in such cases.

I watched Gillan McLachlan and Tanya Hosch during their press conference today and both were at pains to make clear that the processes which underpin the looming AFL investigation will be rigorous and culturally sensitive. McLaclan stated that:

"These are serious allegations, it is important we treat them appropriately, while also ensuring the formal process provides support for those impacted and also natural justice to those people who are accused."

"This is a process that is appropriate to be held independent of the normal AFL Integrity department response.
"There is harrowing stories, there is increasing courage of the complainants to speak out.

"Both sides need to be heard and the process will flesh that out. It's inappropriate to make a comment in advance of that.”

With this in mind, it is highly unlikely that this will be a quick process. There are lots of moving parts here and this is not something that will be wrapped up in a matter of weeks. People should bear in mind that Hawthorn commissioned their review in April after Cyril Rioli went public with statements about his treatment at Hawthorn. That was five months ago and the report has only just landed at Hawthorn a week or so ago.

Judging by the AFL’s response, their inquiry will be broader in scope, including a wider range of individuals, including one would assume Clarkson and Fagan. This review will most likely run into next year and certainly into the pre-season. A rushed review at AFL level will raise serious credibility questions and I am certain the AFL will be wanting to avoid that. Any additional allegations will also blow out timelines.

The bottom line is that the Brisbane Lions should be looking at options for a temporary Head Coach for 2023. If Fagan is exonerated, then he is free to return.

 

[Flossie32]

My guess he is emotionally devastated

As would his family be. Feel for all of them right now, nothing they can do, but ride out the storm of social media comments.
Im not going to add to what will feel like a “pile on” on for Chris. Best to let the investigation roll out, and not draw conclusions from media articles.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Has anyone in this thread actually said a bad word about Fages? People are saying he'll likely lose his jobs but it's hardly a pile on or people having a go at him

 

[Happy_Neale]

Fagan has had incredibly good relations with the indigenous players in our team. Also Ah Chee and Coleman I believe have had children while at the club and given time off to spend time with their partners during the birth. Idk, something seems off about this, are we missing some context in regards to the situations or Fagans involvement?

The story to me reads like he was complicit/present for the events but was not the driving force behind them. He's still culpable in that sense though.

 

[Lions time]

It's a long form investigative piece from Russell Jackson, not a random tweet from Tom Morris.

It's very likely to be accurate and thorough unfortunately.

Investigative piece missing one thing ….. The accused’s side of the story.


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[Shaq attack]

very little actually said about Fagan in the article outside of him being present in meetings.

Will be interesting to see how it plays out, either Fagan won’t be coaching or he’ll never have to work a day in his life after the defamation suit.

 

[Jeremiah001]

3KZ makes an important point. This will be judged in the Court of Public Opinion. This case is far away from being a criminal trial and cant be held to those standards.

Going to be a lot of "I Knew Nothing" going around while this story runs.

Also "I couldn't possibly comment on an ongoing investigation."

 

[wantok]

I am flabbergasted the veracity of these claims and subsequent quilt of the accused has been accepted so readily by this cohort. In 2015 the Hawks had 3 great Indigenous players on their list. Burgoyne,Rioli and Hill. Those players would most certainly have been mentors or leaders of any new indigenous recruit in the period. I just cannot believe that these leaders would not be aware of such damming behaviour and would have called it out then or long before today. Maybe one may not feel comfortable to confront the issue but all three?

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[Lions time]

Not in a court of law it isn’t.

The issue is that these events are not being tried in a court of law, but rather, the court of public opinion. The problem for Clarkson, Fagan and Burt is that Hawthorn commissioned an independent external review into the treatment of First Nations players and this report appears to contain accounts, provided by players and families, of mistreatment and cultural insensitivity. It appears that at least three players have and a number of people close to them have reported incidents that are quite similar in nature, indicating a possible pattern of behaviour. One thing I haven’t heard are credible media commentators criticising or finding fault with the independent external review undertaken by Hawthorn. If Clarkson, Fagan or Burt believe the report or the ABC article is wrong and has defamed them, they could take legal action for defamation, but truth is a defence in such cases.

I watched Gillan McLachlan and Tanya Hosch during their press conference today and both were at pains to make clear that the processes which underpin the looming AFL investigation will be rigorous and culturally sensitive. McLaclan stated that:

"These are serious allegations, it is important we treat them appropriately, while also ensuring the formal process provides support for those impacted and also natural justice to those people who are accused."

"This is a process that is appropriate to be held independent of the normal AFL Integrity department response.
"There is harrowing stories, there is increasing courage of the complainants to speak out.

"Both sides need to be heard and the process will flesh that out. It's inappropriate to make a comment in advance of that.”

With this in mind, it is highly unlikely that this will be a quick process. There are lots of moving parts here and this is not something that will be wrapped up in a matter of weeks. People should bear in mind that Hawthorn commissioned their review in April after Cyril Rioli went public with statements about his treatment at Hawthorn. That was five months ago and the report has only just landed at Hawthorn a week or so ago.

Judging by the AFL’s response, their inquiry will be broader in scope, including a wider range of individuals, including one would assume Clarkson and Fagan. This review will most likely run into next year and certainly into the pre-season. A rushed review at AFL level will raise serious credibility questions and I am certain the AFL will be wanting to avoid that. Any additional allegations will also blow out timelines.

The bottom line is that the Brisbane Lions should be looking at options for a temporary Head Coach for 2023. If Fagan is exonerated, then he is free to return.

Gerard Whateley commented this morning that this is being expedited. Think “weeks”not “years “were his exact words.


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[nup]

Does it mention anywhere the organisation who conducted the external review?

 

[3KZ is Football]

Gerard Whateley commented this morning that this is being expedited. Think “weeks”not “years “were his exact words.


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Gerard Whateley has no formal role in the matter. If the AFL review is conducted like a Phil Gaetjens review when he was Secretary of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet under Scott Morrison, it will be judged very harshly. The AFL has a lot riding on this.

 

[BRAB]

Investigative piece missing one thing ….. The accused’s side of the story.


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Did you read the article?

 

[Requiem]

I am flabbergasted the veracity of these claims and subsequent quilt of the accused has been accepted so readily by this cohort. In 2015 the Hawks had 3 great Indigenous players on their list. Burgoyne, Rioli and Hill. Those players would most certainly have been mentors or leaders of any new indigenous recruit in the period. I just cannot believe that these leaders would not be aware of such damming behaviour and would have called it out then or long before today. Maybe one may not feel comfortable to confront the issue but all three?

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Rioli already did go public back in April with several claims about Racism.

 

[Lions time]

Does it mention anywhere the organisation who conducted the external review?

All I could find on a quick glance was a reference to external First Nations consultants.


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[McIvor]

Yeah, nah.

There are a great many explanations once the moral outrage of the writing is removed.

Aside from the distressing hyperbole, the insinuated intentions of the accused appears to have been a more recent allocation to the circumstances, but I'll leave that for each to decide their own assessment.

I simply reiterate my incredulity that nobody knew anything. I won't confess to speculating more on the medical environment surrounding the players' partners, but surely there was a doctor of some description engaging with the relevant pregnancies? I'm talking about a referenced, documented and endorsed person they could have approached at the time these allegations were taking place and asked advice from, distressed and upset as they clearly state.? A person on the outside of everything the football club did and provided? In none of the accounts have I read thus far, has there been a single supporting statement, confirming the familial upheaval.

For the gravity of the offences, to just send some emails, quickly and ultimately get a big brushoff and tell nobody else about the situation seems insufficient landscape. Somebody, either at the footy club or outside, MUST have known something aside from the potential plaintiff.

Equally, if Fages says he knows nothing - then he'd best well be 100% certain on that statement and be able to provide documented proof to a similar level.

The concern I have is that people will be thrown under buses - whether that's Fagan or others, I don't know, but it looks like there are some pretty powerful people in this whole debacle and I've no doubt some will be arse covering and looking to minimise there involvement and if that means throwing someone else under the bus who can't refute or have others support them, then they'll be in big trouble.

It seems scenarios not unlike this - not necessarily indigenous related - play out like this all to often with casualties aplenty that is inevitable, rightly or wrongly.

 

[McIvor]

Hard to prove this type of thing

Which unfortunately for Fagan - even if he is cleared - people will still question and have there doubts irrespective if he know hand on heart he did nothing wrong. Feel sorry for the man if that the case as he looks like a carer and a good man - but like anyone if they do the wrong thing or commit a crime, that's on them and they've got to wear and own it.

 

[Lions time]

Did you read the article?

Yes. Are you alluding to the fact they were were given right of reply ?


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[BRAB]

Yes. Are you alluding to the fact they were were given right of reply ?


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Awesome that you took the time to read it. Hopefully that has cleared up your previous statement for you.

 

[Section 5]

Unfortunatly lead story on 10

 

[McIvor]

Gerard Whateley has no formal role in the matter. If the AFL review is conducted like a Phil Gaetjens review when he was Secretary of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet under Scott Morrison, it will be judged very harshly. The AFL has a lot riding on this.

I have no doubt that Gerard thinks he does though such is his own importance.

 

[Requiem]

I highly doubt the ABC would publish an in depth investigative article containing such damning allegations that would leave them open to libel lawsuits without getting all their ducks in a row, especially after the legal saga with former Attorney General Christian Porter.

I selfishly hope Fagan is 'innocent' and this is all one big cross cultural misunderstanding, but the logical part of my mind tells me otherwise.

All I'll say is Justice for the victims is paramount.