Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[M Malice]

I've deleted some of the poorer posts over the last 12 hours or so and I don't have much tolerance for some of the gutter posting that's going on around here. I understand people are keen to defend Fagan but some of the unnecessary smearing that's going on needs to be reined in.

Will people who have had posts deleted get notifications? Interested to see if I have posted anything deemed unnecessary smearing.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

'Deeply distressed' Fagan denies Hawks racism allegations

Brisbane coach Chris Fagan categorically denies the allegations of mistreatment of Hawthorn's Indigenous players during his time at the club

www.afl.com.au

Yes, very good, so he could have taken 60 seconds to say the same thing when Russell Jackson emailed him and left a voicemail on his phone 24 hours before publishing.

 

[rye]

its important to note fagan is a well off man who is likely to have the full suite of club in house lawyers / pr / media backing him through this process

i dont think we need to rush to defend him with the good bloke defence and make posts that sound like browbeating towards the victims here. fagan has all the resources in the world possible to exonerate himself if he has indeed done nothing untowards.

 

[ZoBlitz]

So of course the posts that affirm the guilt of Clarkson and Fagan will be removed as well? After all smearing the alleged offenders is just as bad as smearing the alleged victims am I right?

When people start claiming they are druggies or that we should hunt for dirt on them, sure I'll delete it.

 

[T Rick]

Journalists are the only ones who think 24 hours to respond is reasonable. 24 hours depending on when it is raised is barely enough time to engage a lawyer.

I always take it with a pinch of salt as to what it means when a party has been "requested to comment" or "did not respond".

You can't use it to infer anything about the person responding or the rest of the article.

Fages was meant to be in Exit meetings all day-great timing for him to even read emails let alone respond after taking appropriate advice. Journalists who have a narrative are not remotely interested in natural justice-never have been.

 

[ZoBlitz]

Will people who have had posts deleted get notifications? Interested to see if I have posted anything deemed unnecessary smearing.

All good on your end.

 

[Military_man]

This isn’t surprising coming out of a club ran by Kennett.

Cyril Rioli goes public with racism claims at Hawthorn

Jeff Kennett is under pressure to step down as president of AFL club Hawthorn after allegations his treatment of Cyril Rioli led to the four-time premiership player’s premature retirement

amp.theguardian.com

On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[mighty_lions]

Yes, very good, so he could have taken 60 seconds to say the same thing when Russell Jackson emailed him and left a voicemail on his phone 24 hours before publishing.

honestly that's bullshit, you have no idea whether or not fagan had any missed calls or checked anything you are straight up making shit up.

have you ever missed a call? missed an email ? its not like he gave him 3 months to reply, I would suggest the journalist didn't want to hear from fagan anyway

 

[M Malice]

Fages sounds pretty categorical with his denial >

"I was shocked and deeply distressed by the allegations reported in the media yesterday concerning my time at the Hawthorn Football Club," Fagan said in the statement to AFL.com.au.

"I deny, categorically, the allegations of wrongdoing by me in relation to First Nations players at the Hawthorn Football Club. I have had very positive relationships with First Nations players throughout my many years in football, and, indeed players from different racial and ethnic groups.

"I intend to defend myself. It is my hope that people will judge me based upon the way I actually conduct myself and not by what is written in the media. I support and welcome the investigation announced by the AFL yesterday. I intend to participate fully in the investigation and look forward to being heard and being accorded due process and fairness.

 

[Brett C]

I would expect you to remember being at a meeting if it involved asking a player to have his partner's pregnancy terminated. Do you consider that an unreasonable thing to have a memory of?


You have no way to determine if they contain bullshit. You simply don't like that the allegation concerns one of your own and so you are suspicious.


We always need to treat alleged victims with the sympathy and care and kindness we would give to real victims, because the alternative is leaving them out in the cold, feeling alone and not cared for.

Lots to unpack here.

Firstly Fagan and Clarkson have categorically denied the allegations and alleged treatment of the “victims”

Just as you say I no way to determine if these claims are bullshit how can you claim them to be truthful?

That this has happened to Fagan doesn’t strengthen my belief that it’s easy to throw out allegations (which are now being taken as fact without any investigations) and that we must just believe all victims.

The seriousness of these claims mean they deserve a through investigation and if Fagan/Clarkson are found to have act as alleged then they should rightly pay the price.

We can have sympathy but the same time we’re allowed to doubt and test accusations, to not do so it patently stupid.

I don’t agree with people being named publicly with these sorts of things before the actual truth or as close to the truth is known.

 

[T Rick]

Lol, Andrew Laming got off light. He is an absolute piece of excrement

Careful - he has a very good record in getting people to apologise or pay up for slander

 

[mighty_lions]

can't wait to see all the back peddling when its proven fagan has done nothing wrong

 

[T Rick]

Fages sounds pretty categorical with his denial >

"I was shocked and deeply distressed by the allegations reported in the media yesterday concerning my time at the Hawthorn Football Club," Fagan said in the statement to AFL.com.au.

"I deny, categorically, the allegations of wrongdoing by me in relation to First Nations players at the Hawthorn Football Club. I have had very positive relationships with First Nations players throughout my many years in football, and, indeed players from different racial and ethnic groups.

"I intend to defend myself. It is my hope that people will judge me based upon the way I actually conduct myself and not by what is written in the media. I support and welcome the investigation announced by the AFL yesterday. I intend to participate fully in the investigation and look forward to being heard and being accorded due process and fairness.

Where did this come from?

 

[ZoBlitz]

Where did this come from?

Story just came out - 'Deeply distressed' Fagan denies Hawks racism allegations

 

[Johnny Bananas]

honestly that's bullshit, you have no idea whether or not fagan had any missed calls or checked anything you are straight up making s**t up.

have you ever missed a call? missed an email ? its not like he gave him 3 months to reply, I would suggest the journalist didn't want to hear from fagan anyway

Fact: Russell Jackson emailed Fagan and left a voicemail on his phone giving him 24 hours to reply before he published the story. I didn't make this up, Jackson posted it himself. I'm told 24 hours notice is standard or even generous in the news industry.

 

[Section 5]

A horrible mess for all involved
Gil advised the enquiry will take 6-8 weeks which is a reasonable time frame for such things
However this is not ideal for a business that relies on sponsorship, membership and AFL monies to stay in the black

At the end of the day don't be surprised if sponsors have a big say in what the club should do
The Pies found out the hard way a few years ago with sponsors either pulling sponsorship or threatening to do so
Then they dropped from 8th to 17th on the ladder

Does the club wait and support Fagan and cop the fallout that invariably will come over 6-8 weeks. Look what's happening in only a few days

Fagan has said on a number of occasions if the club asked the question of him continuing as coach he would do the right thing by the club
He obviously was not thinking of this scenario but here we are

Weather he was not involved in the alligations, involved by means of not standing up for players, or recalls all of the alligations, is not the point now.

It is sad for me to say but i think Fagan should resign now and come to some agreemant with the club $ wise
This happens in other businesses. Someone has to take the fall rightly or wrongly to protect the business

Scenario 1: We appoint an interim coach for 12 months and possibly reappoint Fagan if cleared and their is no doubt about his involvement
Scenario 2: We go straight into appointing a new coach immediatly. Process about 3-4 weeks
I prefer 2 as i doubt we get the right canditate as an interim coach but we could get lucky

What i think will happen is the club stands by Fagan up to a point in time, then when too much damage is done they start process of a new coach.
This delay is not ideal in my opinion

 

[Section 5]

honestly that's bullshit, you have no idea whether or not fagan had any missed calls or checked anything you are straight up making s**t up.

have you ever missed a call? missed an email ? its not like he gave him 3 months to reply, I would suggest the journalist didn't want to hear from fagan anyway

He would have been advised of the email or got if forwarded to him by the club
Se my post 714 page 29

 

[Lions time]

A horrible mess for all involved
Gil advised the enquiry will take 6-8 weeks which is a reasonable time frame for such things
However this is not ideal for a business that relies on sponsorship, membership and AFL monies to stay in the black

At the end of the day don't be surprised if sponsors have a big say in what the club should do
The Pies found out the hard way a few years ago with sponsors either pulling sponsorship or threatening to do so
Then they dropped from 8th to 17th on the ladder

Does the club wait and support Fagan and cop the fallout that invariably will come over 6-8 weeks. Look what's happening in only a few days

Fagan has said on a number of occasions if the club asked the question of him continuing as coach he would do the right thing by the club
He obviously was not thinking of this scenario but here we are

Weather he was not involved in the alligations, involved by means of not standing up for players, or recalls all of the alligations, is not the point now.

It is sad for me to say but i think Fagan should resign now and come to some agreemant with the club $ wise
This happens in other businesses. Someone has to take the fall rightly or wrongly to protect the business

Scenario 1: We appoint an interim coach for 12 months and possibly reappoint Fagan if cleared and their is no doubt about his involvement
Scenario 2: We go straight into appointing a new coach immediatly. Process about 3-4 weeks
I prefer 2 as i doubt we get the right canditate as an interim coach but we could get lucky

What i think will happen is the club stands by Fagan up to a point in time, then when too much damage is done they start process of a new coach.
This delay is not ideal in my opinion

“Weather he was not involved in the alligations, involved by means of not standing up for players, or recalls all of the alligations, is not the point now.”


This is the whole point … Going by your sentiments here , no one has a right to natural justice. Just cop it on the chin, have your life longs work , relationships, moral standing,denigrated and destroyed by something you may not have been a part of. That to me is disgusting.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[McIvor]

We always need to treat alleged victims with the sympathy and care and kindness we would give to confirmed victims, because the alternative is leaving them out in the cold, feeling alone and not cared for.

Couldn't the same be said of Chris Fagan if he wasn't at the meeting, which Chris Fagan has said to Lions officials that he wasn't - then isn't he a victim that has wrongly been defamed, so where's his sympathy and kindness? Or b/c a reporter has said he was there, then he should be left out in the cold and not cared for either?

Isn' this a two way street or am I missing something?

 

[Big Sauce 21]

I sent detailed questions to Chris Fagan’s Lions email address with 24 hours’

Is this only accessible by Fagan or others around the club ? I don't even entertain the thought of opening Emails when I'm not working. I gather no one is deeply involved at the club at the moment after the season ending last week.

 

[mighty_lions]

Fact: Russell Jackson emailed Fagan and left a voicemail on his phone giving him 24 hours to reply before he published the story. I didn't make this up, Jackson posted it himself. I'm told 24 hours notice is standard or even generous in the news industry.

woop de doo. we already know that, you have no idea if he saw it or anything, did he text hey its Russell here just about to drop a bomb on you can you get back to me, I highly doubt it, probably an email to a generic email account saying get back to me and a voicemail (who even checks voicemail)

my opinion is its incredibly poor journalism to not get the other side of the story, the hawthorn fact finding mission didn't need to

 

[mighty_lions]

He would have been advised of the email or got if forwarded to him by the club
Se my post 714 page 29

so you are saying he chose to not reply, I highly doubt this

 

[irel]

Lol, Andrew Laming got off light. He is an absolute piece of excrement

Even if fact, can you post such opinion on a public forum without expecting an email from a lawyer coming your way?

 

[bungalow_bill]

honestly that's bullshit, you have no idea whether or not fagan had any missed calls or checked anything you are straight up making s**t up.

have you ever missed a call? missed an email ? its not like he gave him 3 months to reply, I would suggest the journalist didn't want to hear from fagan anyway

And Fagan would likely get a fair few emails / calls. It's quite easy to not see an email for 24 hours or more.

 

[Sausages]

Well, a new day starts (I'm 3 hrs behind those of you on the AUS east coast - plus I slept in a bit )

Reading through the commentary this morning, I see not much has been added to any official account.

After having slept on this mess, I remain 100% behind Fages. I hope he coaches us again and I hope we as a footy club are able to get around him and support him.

I know for some of you, that moment is some way off and will require Fages' evidence to provide that pathway. For others, you might never forgive him and thus never again be able to support him in the coaches chair.

Regardless, the only thing I would ask is that we reflect on our coach of the past 6 years and rate him on that body of work.

We all like to deify our heroes and demonise our enemies. Fages is neither, right now. He's just a bloke somehow involved in a very unsavoury incident with massive repercussions and significant heinous elements.

If he did the wrong thing, I'm happy to shake his hand, say thanks, and see him off knowing that his time here was done.

If he did the right thing, I'm gonna make sure that I am one of the first there to say welcome back.

And if neither of those can be proven?

Then he's our coach until 2023.

Because until proven guilty, he's innocent.

The onus here is quite clear - it is up to the Prosecuting parties to prove their case.

We owe it to our concepts of justice to hold the accusing parties to this standard.