NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[the big lebowski]

The coaches had many chances to tell their story.

They refused. Fagan sued to stop the investigation.

Is this correct? I thought the coaches and players and about 50 other people all made submissions to the AFL investigation.

 

[The Nostradamus]

The pay day was always going to come

But abc and rusty jackson should be coughing up a lot also not just hawks

 

[Smoocher]

Not saying the Hawks are.

Feel most sorry for the families especially after the AFL buried their head in the sand trying to throw cash to make the issues go away.

There was no issue until the Hawks hired a gung ho Egan who had an obvious agenda( A man who is now facing criminal charges).

The bottom line is that the accusations were sensationalized.

Asking someone" have they considered an abortion" was blown up into THEY WANTED ME TO KILL MY BABY.

Hawks will no doubt be paying compensation in this matter, because they were the instigator of a report that tarnished the reputation of 3 people without gathering any hard facts, or giving those affected parties a right of reply.

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[vindaloo]

The pay day was always going to come

But abc and rusty jackson should be coughing up a lot also not just hawks

I voted Yes in the recent referendum but...
Rusty Jackson and such agendas are a big big reason the referendum got voted down. Dishonest media reporter and lack of journalistic integrity in this instance has left a stain on society not just football.

 

[matthew_s]

I voted Yes in the recent referendum but...
Rusty Jackson and such agendas are a big big reason the referendum got voted down. Dishonest media reporter and lack of journalistic integrity in this instance has left a stain on society not just football.

im not sure dishonest lefty journalism is the kind of journalism that caused people to vote no

 

[DoesNotBoo]

im not sure dishonest lefty journalism is the kind of journalism that caused people to vote no

The reason the referendum got voted down was that white folk think they know what's best for black folk, and baulked at empowering them. Clarko and Co an extreme example of this stupidity.

 

[RichLeMonde]

In my case, it was Eddie Betts saying he believed the accusations based on what he had experienced in footy and life generally. You talk as if racism wasn't a thing, mate.

So because Eddy Betts believed the accusations (on the basis of his life experiences) you believed the accusations?

Just because racism is a thing, doesn’t mean that you go around believing any and all claims of racism to be true, when the other party strenuously denies them. There are lots of things which are prevalent in society, but that doesn’t mean that in every individual instance we should go with probabilities or what’s happened in the past to make a judgment about the reality of that individual instance. We should withhold any judgment or opinion whatsoever until the matter has been carefully scrutinised, in the legal system if necessary

 

[BondiHawk]

Well whatever happens I have removed my auto-renew on membership as I don't want to fun payments to Clarkson in particular who can't demonstrate loss and are going after the people with money not the people who made the accusations.

 

[blackshadow]

Well whatever happens I have removed my auto-renew on membership as I don't want to fun payments to Clarkson in particular who can't demonstrate loss and are going after the people with money not the people who made the accusations.

That'll show 'em!

 

[DoesNotBoo]

So because Eddy Betts believed the accusations (on the basis of his life experiences) you believed the accusations?

Just because racism is a thing, doesn’t mean that you go around believing any and all claims of racism to be true, when the other party strenuously denies them. There are lots of things which are prevalent in society, but that doesn’t mean that in every individual instance we should go with probabilities or what’s happened in the past to make a judgment about the reality of that individual instance. We should withhold any judgment or opinion whatsoever until the matter has been carefully scrutinised, in the legal system if necessary

Yep, I have more faith in Betts to inform me about the experiences of Aboriginal people at footy clubs then I have faith in our legal system to do so. These accusations tend to corroborate each other, have an clear and honest motive, and according to Betts fit the pattern. The responses of Clarkson & Co - which are not limited to simple denials - confirm this for me.

 

[JackOutback]

Why would you think the coaches are all lying? Obviously, there are any number of plausible reasons why the former players could be lying, why the couches could be lying, and why there could be genuine, honest misunderstanding. It's ridiculous that anyone would choose a side in this situation and have any opinion at all on what happened.

It's naive because you make the point as though it's meaningful, when in reality anyone and everyone would simply follow their legal counsel and do the same. You make out like it's some gotcha - it's an asinine point.

Why would you think the players would be lying, apropos of nothing? There's far more plausible reason the coaches could be lying... like the fact they did something terrible, regardless of whether it was intentional, and don't want to be held to account for it as it would cost them their multimillion-dollar jobs. The players didn't come in threatening to sue for cash, they were approached, years after the incidents, and asked to tell their stories.

I don't know the truth and it's likely complicated by different interpretations, but neither do I assume people talking about trauma are liars and grifters.

 

[yodellinhank]

Yep, I have more faith in Betts to inform me about the experiences of Aboriginal people at footy clubs then I have faith in our legal system to do so. These accusations tend to corroborate each other, have an clear and honest motive, and according to Betts fit the pattern. The responses of Clarkson & Co - which are not limited to simple denials - confirm this for me.

The response of Fagan was an eye opener. Clarkson is easy to paint as the devil, Fagan outed himself.

 

[peetoo]

So because Eddy Betts believed the accusations (on the basis of his life experiences) you believed the accusations?

Just because racism is a thing, doesn’t mean that you go around believing any and all claims of racism to be true, when the other party strenuously denies them. There are lots of things which are prevalent in society, but that doesn’t mean that in every individual instance we should go with probabilities or what’s happened in the past to make a judgment about the reality of that individual instance. We should withhold any judgment or opinion whatsoever until the matter has been carefully scrutinised, in the legal system if necessary

In hawthorn First Nations players case, the coaches seemed to react badly to real life situations. In the Adelaide and betts case the club seemed to use first nations issues to deliberately put stressful situations for a club training camp.

Neither is a safe workplace but one case seems to have a nasty streak of premeditation to it. It may not have lasted as long though

 

[South of the Yarra]

It doesn't change what the people said, but it should influence how we make sense of what was said. You, and many others on here, were very happy to take what the players said as though it was factual. Many others on here have said that when you have only one side of a story, you should reserve any judgement whatsoever about the facts of the matter; hearing only one side tells you absolutely nothing about the facts. When you hear one side, all you can do is empathise with the feelings that are being expressed.

So you do you believe the Aboriginal players or not?

 

[South of the Yarra]

People like you are dangerous.

Why on earth would you believe one party rather than another in a dispute over the facts, while knowing absolutely nothing first-hand about the events in dispute? Why would you have any beliefs on the matter at all?

This is a point that is almost childlike in its naivety.

The coaches followed the advice of their legal teams - as would any sane person in this country - because the stakes are high.

And people like you are more dangerous who automatically who are not willing to listen to Aboriginal peole. Had Clarkson accused Aboriginal players of something I bet you would not have dismissed it.

 

[South of the Yarra]

So because Eddy Betts believed the accusations (on the basis of his life experiences) you believed the accusations?

Just because racism is a thing, doesn’t mean that you go around believing any and all claims of racism to be true, when the other party strenuously denies them. There are lots of things which are prevalent in society, but that doesn’t mean that in every individual instance we should go with probabilities or what’s happened in the past to make a judgment about the reality of that individual instance. We should withhold any judgment or opinion whatsoever until the matter has been carefully scrutinised, in the legal system if necessary

Racism is a ‘thing’. I would suggest a comment like this suggests you don’t know anything about racism. Yes and I believe the accusations

 

[Noidnadroj]

Why would you think the players would be lying, apropos of nothing? There's far more plausible reason the coaches could be lying... like the fact they did something terrible, regardless of whether it was intentional, and don't want to be held to account for it as it would cost them their multimillion-dollar jobs. The players didn't come in threatening to sue for cash, they were approached, years after the incidents, and asked to tell their stories.

I don't know the truth and it's likely complicated by different interpretations, but neither do I assume people talking about trauma are liars and grifters.

A ‘truth telling’ report was commissioned by Hawthorn on the back of Cyril to see if racism was isolated or systemic.

Report was run by Egan, who we now know cannot be trusted with a report of such importance that success relies entirely on confidentiality and good faith reporting.

The report did not involve any interviews with non-indigenous people and did not provide any opportunity for a right of reply.

The lack of any fair process in regards to a balanced account of what occurred might not have been an issue had the report remained confidential…. it didn’t.

And why didn’t it? Because the accusers and/or their families told their stories to the ABC, before there’d been an opportunity for the AFL’s integrity department to conduct an investigation involving fair process and an opportunity for the accusers to provide a right of reply.

From that moment this whole thing was never going to get the truth, and it was always going to result in compensation to the people who were defamed on the back of anonymous and untested accounts.

Once the media gets their teeth into a story involving legal process (Bombers drugs saga, racism review etc…) the truth will always be the first casualty.


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[Smoocher]

The reason the referendum got voted down was that white folk think they know what's best for black folk, and baulked at empowering them. Clarko and Co an extreme example of this stupidity.

Your type of reasoning is why the No vote lost.



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[Smoocher]

And people like you are more dangerous who automatically who are not willing to listen to Aboriginal peole. Had Clarkson accused Aboriginal players of something I bet you would not have dismissed it.

Storytelling is not the truth.
You need undisputable facts and not third party heresay.
Kangaroo courts are a thing of the past.


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[South of the Yarra]

Storytelling is not the truth.
You need undisputable facts and not third party heresay.
Kangaroo courts are a thing of the past.


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So someone stands up in court and gives their point of view it that automatically the truth is it? How do you know what facts there are? I would suggest story telling is an important part of Aboriginal culture and if you ever took the time to learn you will find out that is the best way to learn the truth from Aboriginal people. Many will not trust officials, police, judiciary or courts. Thank God Yoorrook Justice Commission is allowing people to tell their stories.

 

[Elixuh]

This thread has been a good demonstration of people believing and advocating for procedural fairness and justice so long as it is aimed at and aligns with how they see the world and their own views. As soon as it doesn't, sic 'em!

 

[the big lebowski]

So you do you believe the Aboriginal players or not?

Hi mate. I know you believe the testimony of the players and families.

But may I ask if you believe any important facts or additional contextual information was not included in their version of events?

 

[peetoo]

I believe it but aren’t as shocked as many.

Extreme family planning goes hand in hand with competitive sport. A chat to some of the aflw players would be illuminating

 

[Chief]

Storytelling is not the truth.
You need undisputable facts and not third party heresay.
Kangaroo courts are a thing of the past.


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Statements from people directly involved is not third party hearsay.

 

[DoesNotBoo]

Your type of reasoning is why the No vote lost.



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Nope, the way you voted is your responsibility and you can't blame others.